Sea Vixen FAW.1x2

[CJP]

Really interesting work you're doing here Tony - you must feel like  you are starting to get somewhere now with those nose cones - as a mere mortal I thought the old High Planes Sea Vixen doesn't look too  shabby next to it either. - keep up the good work

CJP

[Teuchter]

10 hours ago, TheBaron said:

 

 

I've got today's Belemnites (improve your achaeology with Baron..) have a bit of a cure beside me as I write:

 

Sorry to contradict you Tony, but its Palaeontology, it touches a nerve caused by years of turning up to farms and explaining that we are the geological survey and would like to take rock/soil/stream pan samples and being told about the local Roman fort up the road.....

Nice 'belemnites' though, I can send you a couple if you want to do a comparison plunge mould?

Don

 

 

 

[Robert]

Must be very satisfying to see the work you have done so far bear fruit, 👍 .

 

Regards

Robert

[bigbadbadge]

Great to see some pieces emerge Tony and they look great. Great work fella.

Chris

[TheBaron]

12 hours ago, giemme said:

Those nose cones look much more than promising!

 

OK, how much for the full kit, once you're done printing it? Do I get a discount or special price for early booking?

Best wait and see how the rest of it turns out first Giorgio! 😆

If it's a success I shall be offering it in a bespoke end-opening box, heavily stapled shut and with wildly garish box art that does not resemble the contents....

12 hours ago, Pete in Lincs said:

You may have to explain that one to younger readers.

Love the Wikipedia entry for it Pete: 'Hai Karate was a budget aftershave....'

For those evenings when you want her to feel like she's being taken out by the quality.

12 hours ago, Pete in Lincs said:

Nice noses old chap. Impressive stuff. Whatever next? Wings n things? Bring it on. 

Have a great weekend, Pete

Thanks my friend. You too.

(Stay away from the fragrance section)

10 hours ago, CedB said:

Nice noses Tony - well done that man; what a Pioneer!

 

Admirable stuff matey and nice to see some results - they look great  

Thanks Ced.

It's no doubt tested people's patience that it's 16 pages in before a piece emerges and even then, it's just a test shot, but you can't hurry a fine wine.

4 hours ago, CJP said:

Really interesting work you're doing here Tony - you must feel like  you are starting to get somewhere now with those nose cones - as a mere mortal I thought the old High Planes Sea Vixen doesn't look too  shabby next to it either. - keep up the good work

CJP

Kind of you CJ.

I freely admit that although these new processes fascinate me personally, that they're not everyone's cup of tea (and why should it be?) Seeing how 3d printing (I hate the 'printing' term actually, it just sounds wrong) is such a basic element in the design of so many objects that we use daily, modelling will feel it's effects along with all these other areas to a greater degree in future I suspect, but not I hope to the extent that it harms traditional skills, of which there is such a selection of high quality shown routinely on the forum and are such a source of pleasure.

 

I do forsee a situation not too far away though where (along with a whole panoply of domestic items) you don't necessarily buy your model kit in a box but download it digitally from a company to your home setup which then outputs the kits parts in a material of your choice, not just plastics and resins. Not perhaps the largest compnaies but certainly commercial opportunities for smaller/short-run outfits. This isn't an original thought: I remember clearly reading about such ideas in the late 80s/early 90s in books like Alvin Toffler's Futureshock and later cloned articles in things like Mondo2000 magazine.

1 hour ago, Teuchter said:

Sorry to contradict you Tony,

A rightful correction is never a contradiction in my eyes Don but a necessity. I am well rebuked sir.

(You have to admire the way that I also managed to mis-spell 'archeology' in the original entry too - icing on cake &etc.)😄

 

Too many years of holidaying in Lyme Regis have irredeemably warped the boundaries between the two areas for me it seems...

 

1 hour ago, Teuchter said:

years of turning up to farms and explaining that we are the geological survey and would like to take rock/soil/stream pan samples and being told about the local Roman fort up the road.....

In fairness, farmers will always say that there's a Roman fort on their land Don - it gives an air of Imperial grandeur to even the most squalid plot.

(Must tell you about the one in my garden<castrum emoji>)

1 hour ago, Robert said:

Must be very satisfying to see the work you have done so far bear fruit, 👍 .

I would say relief is in there somewhere too Robert! 😃

45 minutes ago, bigbadbadge said:

Great to see some pieces emerge Tony and they look great. Great work fella.

Ta Chris.

Early doors of course but results encouraging.

 

 

 

[Dave Swindell]

12 hours ago, TheBaron said:

That should provide a nice overlap with some of David Nobbs' books.

 

I think you might mean David Hobbs

[Massimo]

What you did up to now is great!!!

I admire your perseverance in facing a new world as 3D printing, with all the question marks involved in translating what you can get from drawings and pictures into an accurate 3D rendering.

Anyway you're proving to be right and handling this project the right way, thus...chapeau!!!

[Spookytooth]

For those younger readers.

 

 

Those nose cones look great.

I would go for the 0.7 mm one, a better bonding area, unless you are going to scratch build the radar as well.

 

Simon.

[TheBaron]

30 minutes ago, Dave Swindell said:

I think you might mean David Hobbs

You even said that in CJ's voice...

23 minutes ago, Massimo said:

What you did up to now is great!!!

I admire your perseverance in facing a new world as 3D printing, with all the question marks involved in translating what you can get from drawings and pictures into an accurate 3D rendering.

Anyway you're proving to be right and handling this project the right way, thus...chapeau!!!

Kind of you Massimo.

It's daunting I'll admit, but exciting too to be out on the ragged edges of your ability like this. Am just about to retry the nose section in an attempt to squeeze a bit more detail out of the same number of lines with a slightly different workflow.

Doesn't sound obsessive or anything does it?

17 minutes ago, Spookytooth said:

Those nose cones look great.

I saw what you did there....

 

[The Spadgent]

WOW!!!! That’s loads better than my plastic 3D printing a few years back. Is that resin? It’s soooo smooooth. 
amazing stuff Tony. I’m totally convinced you will produce something spectacular. 
are you planing scribing the panel lines ore printing them? 
 

Johnny 

[Brandy]

Those prints look exceptionally smooth. Items I've received from Shapeways always need sanding.

 

Ian

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

8 hours ago, Spookytooth said:

For those younger readers

I vaguely remember the cologne here in the states as a kid. Different commercials but i do remember the product. My only question is why would anyone want to fight her off, she was quite a good looking woman. 

[Spookytooth]

15 minutes ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

I vaguely remember the cologne here in the states as a kid. Different commercials but i do remember the product. My only question is why would anyone want to fight her off, she was quite a good looking woman. 

That was the point of it, it was a different point of view.

 

Simon.

[keefr22]

11 hours ago, TheBaron said:

If it's a success I shall be offering it in a bespoke end-opening box, heavily stapled shut and with wildly garish box art that does not resemble the contents....

 

Too late, Xtrakit beat you to it....

 

But if only they could have got their radome 50% as accurate as yours...!! 

 

Cracking work Tony, the shape looks great!

 

Keith

[hendie]

On 1/31/2020 at 4:37 PM, TheBaron said:

you can see the pronounced seam where port and starboard halves meet along the top - this I think originates in the initial mirror operation of the two sides in Fusion and although can be sanded smooth subsequently is something I prefer to have corrected in the worfklow to avoid bad craftspersonship. The seams there also on the underside but not as pronounced:

 

Can you get rid of those by applying a large radii fillet?  You might have to use a variable fillet depending upon how the software works but that would be the easiest oprion

 

On 1/31/2020 at 4:37 PM, TheBaron said:

I wonder do I need to put some lubrication on the screw thread that moves the plate up/down the Z-axis?

 

I smothered mine with lithium grease when it first arrived, but after reading your post I may go and do it again, just to make sure I've covered end to end.

 

On 1/31/2020 at 4:37 PM, TheBaron said:

clean off any excess resin with a big soft fluffy make-up brush

 

the wife's toothbrush is ideal but I always follow up with an ultrasonic bath (water and a few drops of washing up liquid) for those hard to reach areas

 

Great results Tony.  What level of anti-aliasing did you use on these?  The nose cone looks superb, very smooth.

 

 

 

[Pete in Lincs]

6 hours ago, hendie said:

I always follow up with an ultrasonic bath (water and a few drops of washing up liquid) for those hard to reach areas

Every Friday night after I get home from t'pit

[Aardvark]

On 1/30/2020 at 4:42 PM, TheBaron said:

 

The view above my desk at work:

#alwaysmotivated 🤣

For next motivation 😁and collection recruitment:

"Be careful with the pitchfork"

"Raise labor productivity in industry by at least 50%!"

"Before disposing of production waste, carefully check it for the absence of ammunition elements!"

😁😁😁

 

On 2/1/2020 at 12:37 AM, TheBaron said:

What a strange

Caucasian horn for wine!

😁😁😁

..or this for

Vikings??.....Sea Vixings???

😁😁

 

B.R.

Serge

 

P.S.

Nose cone excellent! But need panel line!

[TheBaron]

On 2/1/2020 at 11:51 AM, The Spadgent said:

Is that resin? It’s soooo smooooth. 

It is, and it is Johnny.

I'm astonished at the quality the Elegoo yields straight out of the vat compared to ones at work costing five times as much.

On 2/1/2020 at 11:51 AM, The Spadgent said:

are you planing scribing the panel lines ore printing them? 

Been thinking about this more and more of late in terms of 1/72 as less and less inclined to put panel lines on my work in general (erased most of the existing ones on the Anson for example and felt it looked better.

 

Personal preference of course but staring at so many photos  of actual aircraft convinces me it isn't always necessary at this scale vis-a-vis the difference between looking at closeups of sections compared to viewing distances that take in the overall thing. Sure that there must have been some heated debates about 'scale effects' here and elsewhere in the past of course, though I've zero interest in such discussion tbh. If it feels right, each to their own is my motto.

 

As to actuallly putting panel lines into CAD designs, I've read a number of 'solutions' from simple to horribly complicated: the problem is that many of the ones I've come across are highly specific to a particular situation (or shape). In theory it's a case of drawing out regions onto the various forms making up the aircraft and subsequently turning the drawing into incisions of a particular width. No doubt Airfix have a cunning step in their product pipeline but they're being tight-lipped about it.

 

If need be I suspect the easiest method if I need to add anything (until AI takes over anyway...) will be post-scribing. 

 

The lines on the Special Hobby moulding are actually quite finely produced but on my printed version I might experiment with drawing any necessary onto the surface in places like the white underside to give the visual (minus overdone depth of an actual incision) that you see in the aircraft's appearance. We'll see at the time..

On 2/1/2020 at 3:34 PM, limeypilot said:

Items I've received from Shapeways always need sanding.

That's interesting Ian. I'd always assumed from shots of their stuff that it was all pearly-perfect.

On 2/1/2020 at 6:33 PM, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

My only question is why would anyone want to fight her off, she was quite a good looking woman. 

The English Public School system of course!

See under: Eton, pig's head, soggy biscuit.

On 2/1/2020 at 6:50 PM, Spookytooth said:

That was the point of it, it was a different point of view

Hai Karate was in fact manufactured by the Vatican as a way of rendering men less attractive to women and hence reducing levels of non-marital sex.

It was considered a success.

On 2/1/2020 at 9:23 PM, keefr22 said:

Cracking work Tony, the shape looks great!

Kind of you as always Keith.

Since getting a chance to eyeball the physical version over the last few days I've revisited the design in some areas to correct it - more below.

On 2/2/2020 at 12:15 AM, hendie said:

Can you get rid of those by applying a large radii fillet?  You might have to use a variabl

Good call Alan but it didn't work with a stitched surface loft. As mentioned above, had made some adjustments to the design and reproduced it using a solid loft instead so will see if this makes a difference.

On 2/2/2020 at 12:15 AM, hendie said:

I smothered mine with lithium grease when it first arrived,

I never did this but mine too now lathered in the stuff.

I felt strangely calm afterwards so may have absorbed some through the skin...

On 2/2/2020 at 12:15 AM, hendie said:

Great results Tony.  What level of anti-aliasing did you use on these?

Thanks - I actually forgot to change those settings from the last print I did a few weeks back  - laptop's at work still this evening so I'll update you on it in next post  - unless you can remember what I printed at previously? 

On 2/2/2020 at 12:15 AM, hendie said:

the wife's toothbrush is ideal

You better have a good explanation when the dentist asks her about the photopolymer buildup on her molars!

On 2/2/2020 at 6:39 AM, Pete in Lincs said:

Every Friday night after I get home from t'pit

T'pit?

Isn't that a T'Pau tribute band? 🎸 

[TheBaron]

On 2/3/2020 at 4:50 PM, Aardvark said:

Caucasian horn for wine

Wine will often give a chap the horn Serge. 😁

 

Damn software posting a thread before I'd finished, and not for the first time. Seems very jumpy sometimes.

 

Anyway, to finish, the amendments to shape I'd mentioned. Matt Clackson's lovely shot of XJ476 at Boscombe shows the manner in which the side of the airframe is almost vertical by the time it reaches where the fairings in front of the intakes are usually mounted:

Image credit: M. Clackson

 

Neither had I entirely caught the somewhat squared-off appearance of the top of the fuselage there adequately I felt, so these were redone with a new drawing and as a lofted solid this time around:

Also learned that to gauge a better sense of form prior to any outputs requires doing a proper ray-traced render (which Fusion is actually quite good at without much in the way of fancy configuration of lights etc):

I know I haven't put that scallop at the rear end where the intake tunnel curves inside towards the centre of the fuselage but I want to see later on what I need to do there as a solution due to it involving the surrounding parts not yet built.

 

Yes I did slap a roundel on the side for the divilment and yes I forgot to save the render...

 

Next phase at the weekend is to begin work on the next section back. I've begun a preliminary outline to get the overall curves of the aircraft right for both centreline of the fuselage and that outboard of it for the engine tunnel:

Those will sit in the background as a construction guide to begine adding the actual design on top of so that I don't lose sight of the spatial separation between those two profiles. Having cut my teeth in terms of working out a usable methodology on the nose section, this next phase promises to be a far greater challenge in terms of complexity of form!

Cover me - I'm going in.

May be some time.

Rutland expects.

Etc.

 

Salut!

Tony

 

 

[71chally]

I must admit that I was a bit confused by the cross section Tony, the original does seem to flat off sides and top, the underside seems harder to quantify but is more rounded than top n sides.  I think I mentioned way back at the start that it transitions to almost a square with curves, like an Allegro steering wheel, the quartic wheel 😀.

Somewhere I have got pics of cockpit sections taken from the rear, will try and dig them out.

 

Amazing work, love the nose cone definition.

I won't pretend to understand the technology of this though😳.

 

 

 

Who are you, and how did you get in?

I'm a locksmith, and I'm a locksmith.

 

 

[hendie]

1 hour ago, TheBaron said:

As to actuallly putting panel lines into CAD designs, I've read a number of 'solutions' from simple to horribly complicated: the problem is that many of the ones I've come across are highly specific to a particular situation (or shape). In theory it's a case of drawing out regions onto the various forms making up the aircraft and subsequently turning the drawing into incisions of a particular width.

 

to be honest, at that scale I think careful use of a pencil would be the most effective for 90% of the panel lines.  I work mostly in 1/48 and even "fine" panel lines in that scale seem overly large.  I'm almost regretting using the razor saw to cut panel demarcations on the Venom and that's about as fine a line as I'd be able to obtain.

 

Such a lovely aircraft isn't it - such smooth beautiful flowing lines.  I remember the Vixen at Halton during my training and being really jealous of the baby riggers clambering over it while we were stuck on the opposite side of the walkway on the JP's learning how to tension control wires. I think there were two Vixens there but may only have been one... twas so long ago.

Can anyone remember what training was done on the Vixens?  Was it hydraulics?

 

 

[Bandsaw Steve]

On 11/01/2020 at 22:27, TheBaron said:

 

IOf course a sensible person would have picked something simpler like a Mig-15 to start off on and and gotten away with just modelling a barrel and some triangles...

 

[Bandsaw Steve]

How fascinating- I’ve never been described as a ‘sensible person’ before!😀

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

45 minutes ago, hendie said:

Can anyone remember what training was done on the Vixens?  Was it hydraulics?

No idea (not being a Halton kinda chap), but it seems very plausible, since by all accounts the Vixen’s hydraulics system was pretty complicated & would thus make a fine training aid.

 

[Please tell me that they didn’t paint the Halton Vixen(s) in some mythical RAF scheme, like they did the Buccaneer S1 nose at Cosford, which at some point mysteriously transferred services (despite there never having been a Crustacean S1)...]

 

That FAW1 nose at Old Sarum really is a thing of beauty; thanks, Tony!

[TheBaron]

14 hours ago, 71chally said:

Somewhere I have got pics of cockpit sections taken from the rear,

Never a problem receiving correction from 'The Svengali' James! 😁

#anaccuratevixenisahappyvixen

 

I'm primarily a visual person so awful at understanding verbal description: never ask me for directions...

(Looks up 'quartic wheel'....)

 

Is this the profile you mean?

 

This is the rearmost profile of the forward section in its current form:

 

14 hours ago, hendie said:

to be honest, at that scale I think careful use of a pencil would be the most effective for 90% of the panel lines.

I'm of one mind with this Alan.  Particularly along with some subtle rectilinear staining patterns on XN708 to mimic the sort of tuff seen in shots like this:

As for XJ481, were testbed aircraft kept cleaner than standard operational ones?

14 hours ago, hendie said:

Such a lovely aircraft isn't it - such smooth beautiful flowing lines.

Utterly.

Reduced to its essential family of shapes it wouldn't surprise to to find some mystical Pythagorean ratios holding it aloft.

14 hours ago, hendie said:

Can anyone remember what training was done on the Vixens?  Was it hydraulics?

I've a vague memory of an article in Flight magazine (I think) that showed some elaborate hydraulic test bed on wheels hooked up to one in a hangar. I'll see if I can locate it.

14 hours ago, Bandsaw Steve said:

How fascinating- I’ve never been described as a ‘sensible person’ before!

Now you know that you're just making up these quotes about yourself Steve....

13 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

[Please tell me that they didn’t paint the Halton Vixen(s) in some mythical RAF scheme, like they did the Buccaneer S1 nose at Cosford, 

I've no idea, but they were a rum looking ground crew...