453rd BG Museum Build - USAAF Boulton Paul Defiant TT Mk I (from the Airfix 1/48 Mk I) - FINISHED

[perdu]

Rob, accept please an apology.

 

Thanks Rog

 

The missing appellation is second as In Six Inch Half Round Second Cut.

 

Second cut files have enough 'tooth' to act on plastic without going the harsh way of the Coarse File which commonly would tend to carve huge runnels out of the raw material.

 

Using second cuts, after not a lot of practise can even leave the surface ready to paint.

 

I think our own Ced would concur after he became an afficionado

 

 

Happy filing gang.

 

I do not like having to use bad or unfortunate lingo guys so I  have removed problematic word and replaced it with a less graphically emphatic word instead.

[Hamden]

 

Defiant is really coming together with your resin printing skills fitting seamlessly into the kit Steve.

Looking forward to the next update now

 

  Stay safe           Roger

[Zephyr91]

3 minutes ago, perdu said:

Rob, accept please an apology.

 

Thanks Rog

 

The missing appellation is second as In Six Inch Half Round Second Cut.

 

Second cut files have enough 'tooth' to act on plastic without going the harsh way of the (sorry here folks but this is a proper noun) sweetheart File which commonly would tend to carve huge runnels out of the raw material.

 

Using second cuts, after not a lot of practise can even leave the surface ready to paint.

 

I think our own Ced would concur after he became an afficionado

 

 

Happy filing gang.

many thanks for the reply.  I'll file that away for future use.  Eh what?   What did i say 

 

Rob 

[Fritag]

41 minutes ago, PeteH1969 said:

how did you orientate the part to the printer bed please?

 

Pete, for ease and so that the seat support tubes were vertical I just orientated the fuselage frame horizontally on it’s back:

 

 

 

As it happens it has the benefit of meaning that all the supports locate on the sides of the part (back of frame/bottom of seat) that are out of sight.

 

Some print striations visible on the top of the seat cushion - at least at 0.05mm - but they’d be easily dealt with .

 

I think I’ll do it the same way for the good print- or p’raps angle it say 30 degrees or so  from the horizontal (but then I’ll have to support the seat tubes).  What do you think?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 30, 2023 by Fritag

[81-er]

I think it's looking very good, Steve!

 

James

[PeteH1969]

53 minutes ago, Fritag said:

 

Pete, for ease and so that the seat support tubes were vertical I just orientated the fuselage frame horizontally on it’s back:

 

 

 

As it happens it has the benefit of meaning that all the supports locate on the sides of the part (back of frame/bottom of seat) that are out of sight.

 

Some print striations visible on the top of the seat cushion - at least at 0.05mm - but they’d be easily dealt with .

 

I think I’ll do it the same way for the good print- or p’raps angle it say 30 degrees or so  from the horizontal (but then I’ll have to support the seat tubes).  What do you think?

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for that Steve all useful info to remember for printing with other parts.

 

Pete

[AndyL]

Here's another view of DR863 showing the external banner carrier. I'd suggest the access was permanently open, but happy to be proved wrong.

[Terry1954]

3 hours ago, Fritag said:

 

T'was.  Been a useful purchase I think.  It's quick and easy to unfold and it ends up saving time cos I don't spend so long faffing about trying to take a useable picture!

 

 Sounds like I need to get one PDQ, although not much pic posting by me on here lately due to other distractions....... 😒

 

That seat structure is another fine example of your Fusion skill set Steve. Great stuff.

 

As for the print supports (remember I have zero practical experience at this) I think the way you have shown it would be better than tilting, as it might be trickier to clean up the seat tubes from the supports if it was angled? If that makes no sense, just humour me!

 

3 hours ago, perdu said:

I'll tell thee what young Stevie, I have no doubt you'd be as successful with SIHRSC as you are with all the other abilities you've adopted.

 

Don't encourage him Bill, I have beers riding on the whole idea ............ 🤫

 

Terry

 

 

 

 

[perdu]

If I play my cards right you may be contributing to my hangover this way...

 

[Dave Slowbuild]

2 hours ago, AndyL said:

Here's another view of DR863 showing the external banner carrier

I’ve not seen a photo of the TT actually doing it’s thing; for example, what’s “the banner” (presumably not a “will you marry me” message), what’s the target and how far away from the Defiant would it be?

At work they constantly tell us to stay curious, which I’m trying to do, but it’s now crossing over into other areas…

Seriously, I’d be very interested if anyone could enlighten me and hopefully others!

[Massimo]

🤬😠😡😤🤬😠😡😤🤬😠😡😤🤬😠😡😤🤬😠😡😤😫😫😫😫😫😫😫😫

[AndyL]

56 minutes ago, Dave Slowbuild said:

I’ve not seen a photo of the TT actually doing it’s thing; for example, what’s “the banner” (presumably not a “will you marry me” message), what’s the target and how far away from the Defiant would it be?

At work they constantly tell us to stay curious, which I’m trying to do, but it’s now crossing over into other areas…

Seriously, I’d be very interested if anyone could enlighten me and hopefully others!

 

Best image I can do - you can just make out the cable but the banner is out of shot.

[giemme]

More excellent 3D designing and printing, Steve!  

 

On a side note: are we still trying to stay in sync with our Museum builds? Because I have already painted the cockpit and joined the fuselage halves on mine.... It is true that your kit needs a lot of elaboration and I'm building a Tamiya, but you had a head start and I'm also completing the Greek F-4E...

Get going, Kid!

 

Signed: your PITA from Italy

 

Ciao 

[The Spadgent]

Nothing unforgiving about that close up photo Steve. Damn lovely is what it is. Recently got back into the resin while getting ready for @AdrianMF’s GB. It was so much fun just printing I’m thinking about building another kit from scratch. 😇 Thanks for the lovely inspiration. 
 

Johnny

[Zephyr91]

6 hours ago, Massimo said:

🤬😠😡😤🤬😠😡😤🤬😠😡😤🤬😠😡😤🤬😠😡😤😫😫😫😫😫😫😫😫

Massimo, I think there's something lost in translation here.   

[Fritag]

 

12 hours ago, giemme said:

are we still trying to stay in sync with our Museum builds? Because I have already painted the cockpit and joined the fuselage halves on mine....

…

Get going, Kid!

 

Ouch!, G  

 

All I’m gonna say is that one if us is on page 8 of his build and one of us is on page 2.  Who’s working the harder?    

 

And as it happens, just yesterday I had a delivery of some nice new paints for the build.

 

 

Indeed I’ve only been waiting on the delivery of the Interior Green before beginning to paint the Pilots cockpit ….

 

Anyways.  With absolutely no prompting from the Italian PITA  I’ve separated  out the pilot’s cockpit bits, ready to clean them up.  Quite nicely moulded.  The plastic’s quite soft but I don’t mind that.  I’m used to it from the Hawks.

 

 

And just to prove I’m serious I’ve even obtained a nice painted instrument panel from Yahu.

 

 

And some Eduard painted PE that also has an IP - so I’ve got a choice - and several other painted switchy/levery/dially/placardy (technical terms) things for the pilot’s amusement.  And a bunch of stuff for the gunner’s turret which I obvs. won’t need.  Although the gunners lap belt will do nicely for the TT observer.

 

Well nicely unless I c*ck it up - which I have a habit of doing with painted PE. 

 

 

As far as I can see from references the pilot’s office is not really any different in the TT from the turret fighter - no reason why it should be as i think about it given that all the differences are behind the pilot’s head…

 

So maybe I’ll get some interior paint on this weekend G

 

As (I think) I’ver said before; I’m not aiming to build a definitive TT Mk I - just get some practice at Fusion and printing (an ‘essay in the craft’ as I might have read somewhere once as a lad ) so I’m not going to go to town on adding any more cockpit or wheel bay etc. details.

 

16 hours ago, AndyL said:

I'd suggest the access was permanently open, but happy to be proved wrong.

 

Thanks Andy.

 

This interior shot you posted seems to show that the hatch has been ‘squared off’ to make the ‘launching hole’.  And it looks to me as if the observer has to kneel down (on the ‘kneeling pad’ (obvs.) and look out of the ‘launching hole’ and is thoughtfully provided with an ‘observers head pad’ to save his bonce.

 

 

 

Looking at the panel that the ‘observer’s head pad’ is attached to, I can convince myself that it hinges down.  Perhaps as a hatch cover.  But that’s a mere guess, and seeing as the photo shows the hole uncovered I think that’s how it’ll stay.

BTW (cheeky request)  you don’t have any really clear close up photo’s or diagram’s of this structure (cable swivel pulley) do you? 

 

 

The photo’s you’ve posted (like the one above) show it in outline pretty well, and I’ve plans that do likewise, so I can sketch the profile well enough.

 

 

 

 

But I’ve no information on the details so that (for example) I can’t even tell if the fairing is rounded or squared off at the front and back.

 

 

7 hours ago, The Spadgent said:

Recently got back into the resin while getting ready for @AdrianMF’s GB.

 

 

As long as you’ve enough resin in the tank now Johnny… (just saying ).

 

Looking forward to seeing you painting some monsters.

 

7 hours ago, The Spadgent said:

It was so much fun just printing I’m thinking about building another kit from scratch. 😇  

 

 In which case I’ll book a front row seat early on if I may.  Discount for early booking?

 

Edited March 31, 2023 by Fritag

[perdu]

I wonder if Les Whitehouse at the Boulton Paul museum might have anything useful in their archives, on target towing gear?

 

I know there is a TT fan/propellor on the wall inside the museum at Old Warden, they might be a suitable source of info too.

 

 

Oh yes, can you save me a seat near the front for Johnny's 3D dimension challenge build please, I'll bring snacks.

 

🤪

[Troy Smith]

3 hours ago, Fritag said:

But I’ve no information on the details so that (for example) I can’t even tell if the fairing is rounded or squared off at the front and back.

 

 

A  book that may have some info (I can't recall where mine is filed or misfiled...)  I'll see if it's too hand later.

 

The Long Drag: A Short History of British Target Towing

 

"Written by Don Evans, who joined the RAF in 1942 and served as a Flight Mechanic working on Hurricanes and Defiants. Posted to Weston Zoyland in 1944 to service Martinet, Henley and Defiant target tugs, he was persuaded by the princely sum of ninepence a day flying pay to complete 90 hours as a target winch operator. He transferred to the Fleet Air Arm in 1945 until demobilisation in 1947, whereupon he began working at the A&AEE at Boscombe Down until his retirement in 1989. For 12 years he was supervisor of the Towed Target Development Section, where he was when awarded the British Empire Medal for the design of the Trident Target and the Rapid Target Exchanger. He is still involved with Boscombe Down where he looks after over 1,000 scale model aircraft. When compared to combat operations, target towing to most aviation enthusiasts is a non-event. Most of the time, however, air forces are at peace, but they need to prepare for war. In the absence of actual hostilities therefore, the only way for pilots, gunners and aircrew to learn how to fire their weaponry and hit their mark is with the aid of dummy targets. Consequently, providing the targets for the combatants to practice against is a vital, yet almost totally ignored role. In this concise yet fascinating history, possibly for the first time the ways and means by which the necessary aerial targetry and the associated equipment was provided for the British Services is described and explained in some 31,000 words, aided by photographs, technical details, diagrams and specifications. The human side of the target towing task, now almost a lost art, is not forgotten either, for as the author notes, 'the men who tow tails have tales to tell.'" 

 

and actually seems available at a reasonable price.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Long-Drag-History-British-Target/dp/095456054X

 

I can't remember what is has on Defiants, but it a knowledge overview of the subject, possibly the only one. 

 

HTH

[Troy Smith]

22 hours ago, Dave Slowbuild said:

I’ve not seen a photo of the TT actually doing it’s thing; for example, what’s “the banner” (presumably not a “will you marry me” message), what’s the target and how far away from the Defiant would it be?

 

22 hours ago, AndyL said:

Best image I can do - you can just make out the cable but the banner is out of shot.

no idea how typical this is, and I suspect the banner would be a lot further back when being shot at, but here's a pic of a Henley TT,  banner in red and yellow perhaps? 

 

HTH

[RichieW]

On 30/03/2023 at 12:15, Fritag said:

I also don't possess the same level of craft skills that you have, and so to attempt to scratch build in the way that you, @Fozzy, @Bandsaw Steve, @pheonix and some notable others do would just end in tears...

This is a different kind of craft, in the words of Frank Sinatra "It's Witchcraft!"

 

If ever attempted to get to do what you do so brilliantly it would end in a broken PC as well as tears! I'm seriously enthralled by what you're doing here. It must be immensely rewarding to print such beautiful parts after all the careful planning and 3d modelling. If I weren't so utterly incompetent with using a computer I would be all over this method!

 

Richie

[perdu]

6 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

and actually seems available at a reasonable price.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Long-Drag-History-British-Target/dp/095456054X

 

And I just bought it, thanks.

 

I see there doesn't appear to be a casing to house that banner  hmm...

 

Maybe the Henley had more useable room inside the fuselage, she was a bit of a beefy girl wasnt she?

 

 

[Troy Smith]

35 minutes ago, perdu said:

Maybe the Henley had more useable room inside the fuselage,

erm, like a bomb bay...?  I assume that is where the kept banners?  (I thought they were drogues.. ) 

"The underside of the Hawker Henley, showing the bomb bay which could accommodate two 250 Ib bombs. The two "bobbins" on either side of the fuselage are weights fitted when the aircraft was flying without a second crew member or with the Radio W/T equipment removed to keep the aircraft's centre of gravity correct, a feature common with earlier Hawker aircraft"

from

https://dingeraviation.net/henley/hawker_henley.htm

 

well worth a browse.

Apologies for the thread drift @Fritag  but if you have time, check the link for the RAF dive bomber that never was....

 

[Dave Slowbuild]

2 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

no idea how typical this is, and I suspect the banner would be a lot further back when being shot at

Does look a bit close for comfort….I wouldn’t fancy being in the TT with a novice  fighter pilot taking pot shots at the “banner” a few feet to  my rear!

[Zephyr91]

1 hour ago, perdu said:

 

 

 

Apologies.  Being somewhat irreverent, and at risk of going off target thread, I think that picture would be great for a caption contest.  Perhaps along the lines of

Pilot: "If we need to be this close to them I think they should have gone to SpecS........." .    Okay, 

 

Rob

[Fritag]

23 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

and actually seems available at a reasonable price.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Long-Drag-History-British-Target/dp/095456054X

 

I can't remember what is has on Defiants, but it a knowledge overview of the subject, possibly the only one. 

 

17 hours ago, perdu said:

And I just bought it, thanks.

 

And me too, thanks Troy.  I’m a sucker for these oddball niche accounts.

 

17 hours ago, perdu said:

I see there doesn't appear to be a casing to house that banner  hmm...

 

16 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

erm, like a bomb bay...?  I assume that is where the kept banners?  (I thought they were drogues.. ) 

 

Glad you inserted that observation Troy; I had been about to speculate that maybe they just got airborne towing it behind them.  That’s what the flag-towing Hawks did some 40 years later.  But then I didn’t know it has a bomb bay….

 

16 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

Apologies for the thread drift @Fritag 

 

 No apologies warranted or accepted, Troy.  Not so much thread drift as a slight widening of scope.  Anyway even if t’were  drift its still always a bonus to a thread when you’ve a comment or several to add.

 

16 hours ago, Dave Slowbuild said:

Does look a bit close for comfort….I wouldn’t fancy being in the TT with a novice  fighter pilot taking pot shots at the “banner” a few feet to  my rear!

 

T’is fair to sat that when novice fighter pilots on the Hawk at the TWU were detailed to fire the 30mm Aden cannon at a flag towed by another Hawk, the line was a lot longer.

 

Can’t now remember quite how long.  But I think a distance equivalent to the breadth of two counties would probably be the safe minimum….

 

15 hours ago, Zephyr91 said:

I think that picture would be great for a caption contest.  Perhaps along the lines of

Pilot: "If we need to be this close to them I think they should have gone to SpecS........."

 

 

I can’t help noticing that several of the gunners in that photo can’t even be bothered to look at the target.

 

Giorgio.  Some cockpit-related modeling has been occurring.  Not much, but some.

 

Filling of ejector pin holes with punched disks of 0.1mm Tamiya Plastic Paper.

 

 

 

 

There’s also that dished cut-out at the top of the rear cockpit to deal with.  It’s where the fuselage flares out to accommodate the turret in the fighter version.

 

The plastic was thick enough to allow it to be filed flat on the outside, but the inside needs filling.

 

Some left over sprue-goo produced for filling over-exuberant Airfix Hawk panel lines should do the job.

 

 

I also need to remove the fuselage locating pin ‘ole just behind the bottom hatch, as a new fuselage frame needs to be made to fit in there.

 

Edited April 1, 2023 by Fritag
typo