Empire of the Clouds

[roys]

A subject dear to the heart of many on this forum!

http://www.faber.co.uk/work/empire-of-clouds/9780571247943/

Given to me this Xmas, by my father who graduated with a degree in Aeronautical Engineering in 1958 and entered the industry.....................

He has written inside the cover.

" a strange choice for a 21st century book, in retrospect the glider industry does not seem to have been that different and I could have told him a few tales,

such as the 20 Buccaneer prototypes built because they knew a lot would crash (fatally)."

I am most inpressed with the non -judgemental way in which the author has written the book. The reality of the industry, behind the glamourous image,is explained without being excessively critical.

Edited December 28, 2010 by roys

[Wez]

A subject dear to the heart of many on this forum!

http://www.faber.co.uk/work/empire-of-clouds/9780571247943/

Given to me by my father who graduated with a degree in Aeronautical Engineering in 1958 and entered the industry.....................

He has written inside the cover.

" a strange choice for a 21st century book, in retrospect the glider industry does not seem to have been that different and I could have told him a few tales,

such as the 20 Buccaneer prototypes built because they knew a lot would crash (fatally)."

I am most inpressed with the non -judgemental way in which the author has written the book. The reality of the industry, behind the glamourous image,is explained without being excessively critical.

I got this book for Christmas - it's next up on my to read list, looking forward to it!

Wez

[atdb27]

Look forward to your comments as well Wez,

I was a wee sprog in the early 60's when my old man was on Vulcans.

The cover evoked so many memories for me of Coningsby & Cottesmore and o fcourse the Vulcan.

Adrian

[Mal]

After a few heavy hints my son gave me this book for Christmas, from a quick scan it appears excellent.

I think the book may of been commented on in an earlier post,I am sure I mentioned in that post the Independent's review of the book,which I might add gave it a glowing review.

Malcolm

[Graham T]

Ordered a copy from Amazon on Sunday - looked interesting.

[SimonR]

My wife got me this for xmas as well, next up on my to read list, I was born into a RAF family in the late 60's, my dad was on Hunters at Chivenor. I love the aircraft of this era, will post some feedback when I have read it - could be a while though knowing me!

Cheers

Si

[Eric Mc]

I read this book a few months ago.

It is a very good read - with a major emphasis on the career of Bill Waterden, Gloster's chief test pilot in the 1950s. There are some errors of fact in the book but they don't detract from the basic message - that the British aircraft industry had inbuilt structural weaknesses which, combined with political ineptitude, were going to doom it anyway.

Edited December 29, 2010 by Eric Mc

[Potato Pete]

Ended up with two copies from Santa, one from son (via wife) and the other from my brother. Just scanned it so far looks good.

Pete

[roys]

Without divulging too much of the contents of the book, and ruining peoples enjoyment of it, I would be interested to know what the errors are?

One of the first things I do is checkout the authors age to see how plausible he is to write on the subject and this chap was born in 1941, so he does have first hand

knowledge of the subject even if he was not an aircraft industry man.

Recently a lot of WW2 books have emerged written by people younger than myself, which is nonsense in my view.Especially after reading Martin Middlebrook and Max Hastings books on the subject ,written 25 years ago based on first hand accounts.

Loved the chapter on the 1952 John Derry crash, as dad cycled there in the rain the day after the crash, from New Maldon to see the continuing show!!!!

[hurricane39]

This looks like a great read. Checked it out today at my local bookshop. With my parents being from England I have always had a love for all things British especially aviation. Birthday is a few months will have to put a bug in the wife's ear. She did get me "Jet Age" for Christmas. This was a fascinating look at the battle between de Haviland and Boeing during the early days of the Comet and 707.

[marty_hopkirk]

I too read this book several months back and recommend it.

One small observation, it is touted as the British Right Stuff which is a little unfair. Tom Wolfe managed weave a common thread right through the Right Stuff, were as Empire of the Clouds is somewhat more episodic. I know the author adds in his own recollections from the period, which is great and binds it together to a point. But, some of the chapters can almost be read as stand alone episodes. I guess that is the nature of the beast - also the Right Stuff had a common pathway and aim/ending were as Empire of the Clouds peters out, pretty much as the British aeronautic research programme fell away from the cutting edge.

I still think Andrew Smiths "Moondust: In Search of the men who fell to Earth" in my opinion is an exceptional read and is better than both the aforementioned.

But, yes a recommended read.

One of the first things I do is checkout the authors age to see how plausible he is to write on the subject and this chap was born in 1941, so he does have first hand knowledge of the subject even if he was not an aircraft industry man. Recently a lot of WW2 books have emerged written by people younger than myself, which is nonsense in my view.

I have to vehemently disagree with that statement.

I have written liner notes for artists that due to my age I could had no concept of at the time. But, that does not stop me being able to write an accurate and insightful account. In some circumstances it is helpful, as it allows one to step back and examine oft perpetuated myths and perceptions of the time and expose them, by diligently going back to source. In the case of Empire of the Clouds the author weaves his personal remembrances and anecdotes of a teenager from the period - which is great and for me gave some of the high points of the book and I admit it adds to the telling.

I give you a perfect example of an author well younger than his subject matter and able to write a top class accurate account of events: Stephen La Rivière's book "Filmed In Supermarionation a history of the future" Rivière' freely admits being born well after the Supemarionation series had left the screens. Yet his book well and truly takes the lid off what happened and explodes many of the perpetuated myths and gives a more balanced telling of the story than has gone before. It will take some book to beat his telling of the story.

It has a number of glowing reviews, this one typifies them:

http://www.denofgeek.com/comics/453193/fil...ook_review.html

At some point everyone from this era will have gone and the only people left to write about them will not have have lived through the period - that does not automatically mean they can't write a good account of what happened.

Marty...

Edited January 23, 2011 by marty_hopkirk

[chrisrope]

This book is currently reduced to £6.65 on Amazon.

Just ordered myself a copy.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Empire-Clouds-Brit...5936&sr=1-1

Edited January 27, 2011 by chrisrope

[Seahawk]

This book is currently reduced to £6.65 on Amazon.

Just ordered myself a copy.

Thanks for the tip-off.

[modelmaker]

am currently half way through; excellent book in my opinion but you want to cry with equal anguish and pain at the way young lives were (and maybe still are) simply thrown away by 'the dystem' whether it be Government or the designers/manufacturers. being well over six feet tall I well remember sitting in a Lightning cockpit; my Dad had always said that a tall(even tall-ish) pilot would lose his legs ejecting. I thought he must be wrong, but he certainly was not! astonishing.

a superb book

[John B (Sc)]

am currently half way through; excellent book in my opinion but you want to cry with equal anguish and pain at the way young lives were (and maybe still are) simply thrown away by 'the dystem' whether it be Government or the designers/manufacturers. being well over six feet tall I well remember sitting in a Lightning cockpit; my Dad had always said that a tall(even tall-ish) pilot would lose his legs ejecting. I thought he must be wrong, but he certainly was not! astonishing.

a superb book

Yep. That size issue was a not uncommon problem on British aircraft at one time. The Gnat had the same problem. If you were over a certain thigh length you could not go fast jet because of the cockpit size restriction - the windscreen arch was what you'd hit I think. Hence a whole lot of tall, annoyed, RAF Herky bird drivers in the late Sixties. Bringing the Hunter T7 into 4FTS allowed that to change. (Though that was because the Gnat loss rate was rather high, so a shortage of fast jet trainers developedquite quickly.)

On loss rates - a different world, different view of risk. Remember a major war with much loss of life had not long passed. Also the perceptions and perhaps understandings of what was acceptable were different. For example, the comment that Derrry and Richards had noted the DH110 wing leading edge flexing significantly the day before and had not, apparently, been disturbed by that enough to comment in detail, speaks volumes.

(Personally I think we are now far too risk averse in Britain today, but that is another argument altogether)

John B

[Pielstick]

Yep. That size issue was a not uncommon problem on British aircraft at one time.

It still is! Back in 1998 I was entered for a Flying Scholarship and went to OASC - I passed everything except the bit of the medical where they measure your "buttock to heel length". The max allowable is 1200mm. I was 1214mm and so declared permanently unfit for aircrew as if I ever had to make a Martin Baker exit I would be leaving my kneecaps behind!

[Hepster]

Without divulging too much of the contents of the book, and ruining peoples enjoyment of it, I would be interested to know what the errors are?

One of the first things I do is checkout the authors age to see how plausible he is to write on the subject and this chap was born in 1941, so he does have first hand

knowledge of the subject even if he was not an aircraft industry man.

Recently a lot of WW2 books have emerged written by people younger than myself, which is nonsense in my view.Especially after reading Martin Middlebrook and Max Hastings books on the subject ,written 25 years ago based on first hand accounts.

Loved the chapter on the 1952 John Derry crash, as dad cycled there in the rain the day after the crash, from New Maldon to see the continuing show!!!!

Page 118 'In 1946 Martin-Baker made the world's first ejector seat'. Wrong! Except maybe the first one that worked as advertised...

BTW, I think the book is brilliant, and mistakes I've spotted are minor.

Edited March 25, 2011 by Hepster

[roys]

Exactly- the mistakes are MINOR.

My other point that young authors should not bother with topics unless they have new material is answered by the man himself Jonathan Glancey in this review

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2010/nov/0...paterson-review

He could not even review the book without getting names of people wrong, if you read the amendment at the bottom of the article and his employment is the architectural critic not the aviation expert of the Guardian.

Says a lot about the internet age if good books get criticised even if they are not a bad job.

My father experience of aircraft design in the slide rule era, was that there was a lot of critical experts about that had never done any. Plus the fact that he went to various

job interviews and apologised profusely about his third class degree from Imperial College to people that he later found out had never left their hometown and went to the local Technical College. He reckoned for a short period time you could get on by being good at you job, before it all went back to who you know, not what you know.

[Eric Mc]

Exactly- the mistakes are MINOR.

My other point that young authors should not bother with topics unless they have new material is answered by the man himself Jonathan Glancey in this review

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2010/nov/0...paterson-review

He could not even review the book without getting names of people wrong, if you read the amendment at the bottom of the article and his employment is the architectural critic not the aviation expert of the Guardian.

Says a lot about the internet age if good books get criticised even if they are not a bad job.

My father experience of aircraft design in the slide rule era, was that there was a lot of critical experts about that had never done any. Plus the fact that he went to various

job interviews and apologised profusely about his third class degree from Imperial College to people that he later found out had never left their hometown and went to the local Technical College. He reckoned for a short period time you could get on by being good at you job, before it all went back to who you know, not what you know.

I bet that was one of those typical "Grauniad" typos rather than an error by Glancey.

I loved the book and will read it again - as soon as I retrieve it from the person I loaned it to.

Edited March 30, 2011 by Eric Mc

[chrisrope]

Recently finished this book. All was going well till he bad mouthed the Hawk right near the end

Joking aside, a very interesting read

[roys]

You are not wrong Mr Rope. The offending remark being,

"I don't count BAe's little Hawk trainer which, despite some reasonable foreign sales is merely decent."

[MikeR]

This book is currently reduced to £6.65 on Amazon.

Just ordered myself a copy.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Empire-Clouds-Brit...5936&sr=1-1

I can beat that!

Picked up a copy for £4.99 at Sainsbury's today. Not sure how long it'll stay at that price though.

Mike.

Edited May 22, 2011 by MikeR

[Ed Russell]

Just read this courtesy of the local library. A great read, full of interest - a mixture of politics and industry in confusion and disarray - just like the aircraft busines has always been.

Two great anecdotes - the engineer who took the Lightning for an inadvertent spin and the "we are all in this together" Vulcan crew added some black humour to the mix.

Defintely recommended.

[Toe]

I can beat that!

Picked up a copy for £4.99 at Sainsbury's today. Not sure how long it'll stay at that price though.

Mike.

Still around that price, or 2 for £7, flicked through it while G/F was looking at some romantic dross Had thought on us getting them both so it'd be even cheaper, plus my 10% staff discount but had already earmarked my money on the boxed set of The Comic Strip I saw

[ursa_major]

Tesco also have this in their "2 for £8" range I noticed last evening.