Rust

[Kipsley]

Posted in another forum about a guy who had some (pretty good) rust effects on his tank. His post read: "please comment freely as I'm still learning". I pointed out that rust on tanks in active action was almost unheard of during actual wartime. The tank generally just didn't survive long enough to actually accumulate rust. That and the constant grinding of metal tracks through dirt, dust, and sand would leave tracks metal and bare, and relatively rust free. Average life expectancy of a battle tank in a war zone was measured in hours, sometimes days. A few might survive a few weeks.

 

But even during peacetime, those of us who have ever served in the military would know that equipment was constantly being cleaned, repainted, tested, practiced with. It just never sat idle. A modern Abrams would never be allowed to rust during peacetime (or some poor sappers are going to find themselves cleaning that tank with their toothbrushes at 3am).

 

So while Mr "I want to learn" took offence when I pointed out the above, what do you all think about rust on a tank?

 

I have seen dioramas of abandoned wrecks and such, but that's just different IMO. I'm talking about active, working, in the field, tanks.

[Mike]

It depends on how the advice was offered, but some folks can be very fragile when it comes to criticism whether asked for or otherwise.  On the odd occasions that I do offer criticism, I try to keep it positive, and re-read over and over before posting in order to weed out any accidental missteps in phrasing that might offend them.  The modern vogue is to show AFVs in a poor state of repair, and that's fine, as it's an expression of their abilities and artistic license, but realism is also nice.  People that want to model their AFVs in factory pristine condition also have a place in our hobby, as it is, or should be a broad church.  It depends on how people behave, and whether people are genuine in their request for criticism.  Some might just want people to pour praise on their 'beginner' efforts, whilst others do genuinely want to learn and progress.  Without access to both brains, it's impossible to tell the real motivations of either party.

 

As to rust on tanks, it can look good, whether it's appropriate or not.  It's also hard to sort the wood from the trees, as not all AFVs were blown apart within days of reaching the battlefield, or were buffed to a pearly shine by their crews all the time.  On balance, you can never really say conclusively that most acts of weathering never happened, just that on balance of probability, it's unlikely.  Of course, rust on an aluminium hull is more cut-and-dried, but I've seen that done. It's a bit like the rusty Mosquito fuselage and wings, where there's no metal.  Oil leaks maybe?   Also, remember that if you leave your car overnight in a damp environment, you can come back in the morning with a thin coat of rust on the braking surfaces of the disks.  Rust is a fast worker.  

[Pete in Lincs]

I've recently been watching a series of blogs on the tube by 'Mr Hewes' The language & relationships are very ex Military.

A small group of guys in the Midlands who renovate & sell Military vehicles on a farm.

Chieftains, Challengers,Abbot's, AVRE's, Foden recovery trucks,Stalwarts etc. Some of these have been sitting, exposed to the elements for years.

Not active service I know, but they were unloved during that time and it's surprising how well they've stood up to it. Except the Stalwarts!

Mostly all you can see is dark green and rain/dirt residue. It can be a different story inside where the rain has got in though.

I'm not really a tank bloke but I'm really enjoying their tales. The end results look fabulous.

 

Meantime in the air. It's fairly common knowledge that Me 262's were puttied & rubbed down before paint.

Yet people still produce models showing rivets and panel lines. Easiest just to leave a like or say nice paint. They think it's good, so...

 

[Ratch]

I'm in the non-rusty active service school and rusty wrecks are OK too.

[Keeff]

Now you tell me tanks don't rust! 😂

 

There are some really great thoughts and comments on the subject, especially commenting about builds. 

I do like to hear others views on my builds ..... and will take some critcism

(I'm super critical of myself 😳) as it's part of the learning. 

 

My view is that if you don't want to hear others comments, don't ask for them! 

 

Keith 😁 

[Troy Smith]

10 hours ago, Kipsley said:

would leave tracks metal and bare, and relatively rust free.

@Kingsman  a while back pointed out tracks in WW2 were Manganese steel.   It doesn't rust.

Armour plate also does not rust.  And is not silvery when scratched.

 

"

Most tracks of WW2 vintage were a high-manganese steel for wear resistance and long life.  This was most definitely NOT silver, nor graphite.  It was a goldy-brown colour, sort of like a light bronze.  Even late-war German tracks still appear to have had a decent manganese content.  They would wear out in no time without it, and it was being sourced from Sweden through Denmark until very late.

 

It's a hard effect to replicate and none of the paint manufacturers does a colour that captures it.  Since I got back into modelling in the last couple of years I haven't found the answer yet.  It's hard to capture on film too: flash glare can make it look silvery.  These photos of substantial Tortoise and Churchill links just about show it.

 

 

We've all just got used to using silver and graphite colours to show wear because that's all we had, and still have.  Just like we used to show bright worn metal on our tanks, before we all understood that armour plate is actually dark brown and doesn't polish to silver or graphite either.  I'm trying change that, but none of the major paint companies have taken any interest in trying to produce a more accurate colour.

 

So, why are all current Track Primer and worn track colours a very dark black-brown and why does everyone rave over chemical blackening of white metal tracks?  Neither of these are close to being realistic.  There has been debate whether track links were painted, and the consensus seems to be "no".  It would have been inherently pointless.

 

The oxide of manganese steel is a mid grey-brown colour, and it doesn't rust readily in the conventional sense to orange, red and dark brown shades. 

 

Of course, mud and dust would obscure the base colour quickly.  But the wear points on the spuds, guide horns, inside surfaces and where the sprockets mesh would remain bare metal of the afore-mentioned goldy-brown colour, as seen above.  It is physically impossible for manganese steel to be silver or graphite/metallic grey.

 

Many post-war rubber-padded tracks like those on US tanks do seem to be painted, show rust and wear to a silvery colour on contact points, indicating little or no manganese content (unnecessary with the rubber wear pads).  Modern all-metal tracks, as favoured by Israel and Russia, remain high-manganese."

 

see

"https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235043141-favorite-track-technique/#elControls_3128688_menu

 

and

"My two penneth.

 

There are very many over-weathered models out there, and I lay the blame at the feet of certain artistic modellers who have products to promote.

 

I don't mean dust and mud. Tanks could and did get very dusty and very muddy. Fuel and oil stains were commonplace.  But all of this would get cleaned from time to time: maybe a long time. Although tracks needed regular, even daily, maintenance.

 

Many that were in service for only weeks or months are made to look like 20 year range wrecks. On the Allied side, tanks were refurbished and repainted. British instructions recognised the importance of paint for preservation. US tanks were factory baked to harden the paint and bond it to the primer.

 

Tanks were expendable to the Soviets. As long as they worked, little else mattered. German ability to sustain tanks diminished as the war progressed, so they possibly did get most worn looking. But remember that hundreds could be lost in a single day.

 

There are basics that people ignore. Armour plate was a dark brown colour: not silvery and not graphite. It rusted slowly as it contained corrosion-inhibiting elements. Light mild plate parts like track guards and stowage bins would be brighter and would rust. Weld metal is bright silver and never rusts. Tracks were manganese steel, which is also neither silver nor graphite and also rusts slowly, to a sort of milky coffee colour. Tow cables would be oiled or greased."

 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235071982-a-question-about-weathering/#elControls_3662660_menu

 

You plenty of models that look very impressive, and are impressive technique wise, in particular on Youtube and model mags,   but may as well be what if or fantasy...

a month old Spitfire in late summer 1940 looking like it has spent six months on airstrip made from ground coral on  tropical island,  or in this case, tanks with rusty tracks,  and worn and chipped paint showing shiny metal and rust streaks.

 

Pretty but wrong.

 

HTH

HTH

 

 

[Kingsman]

Did I say all that.......?  My Lord, I can prattle on.......

[dcrfan]

45 years working with armoured vehicles I would generalise and say no rust on in-service vehicles but there a obviously minor exceptions like the non armoured stowage bins (especially the hinges) and covers around exhaust mufflers.

 

Also AFVs operating in littoral environments like Pacific islands. The combination of salt laden air, salty soil and high rain fall can start to effect armour where paint has been scratched off and especially the tracks but even this is light and the tracks quickly re-polish when the vehicle is moved.

[Kipsley]

This is all fantastic information. I never knew the facts about tank tracks. I really thought they were just plain old iron and would rust if left a while, but the constant moving around over sand and gravel kept them clean. The Terrier I am building has a welded steel shell (see? I checked) and will definitely rust, however I'll not have any rust effects on my finished project as I think the crews would have looked after their machines pretty well.

 

I'm ex Army Reserves, Medic from an Artillery Regiment, and I can tell you our gun-crews kept those Howitzer Field Guns in prime condition. They were not ALLOWED to have rust on them.

 

So with my current project, and given I only have pictures to go by, I have seen diesel stains, water stains, scratches, mud (lots of mud), dust (loads of that to), boot scrapes, and even a cup of coffee that was tipped over the side. No rust though.

 

But....... not to be a smartie-pants, I never knew a Mosquito was made of wood. I would have been the one to have weathered it like it was made of metal 😳

 

I'm learning so much here. I think I'll stay 😆

[Ratch]

It is so refreshing to read that others share my views on weathering. Many folks overdo things to show off their techniques rather than making their models look realistic, and the uneducated praise and copy their inaccuracies, perpetuating and accentuating the unrealistic. I don't comment on their work - it's their model and they're entitled to finish it as they see fit - but the praise lavished on the inaccurate I find mind boggling. Are folks that badly educated these days?

[Tigerausfb]

3 hours ago, Ratch said:

It is so refreshing to read that others share my views on weathering. Many folks overdo things to show off their techniques rather than making their models look realistic, and the uneducated praise and copy their inaccuracies, perpetuating and accentuating the unrealistic. I don't comment on their work - it's their model and they're entitled to finish it as they see fit - but the praise lavished on the inaccurate I find mind boggling. Are folks that badly educated these days?

+1  That said and I totally agree with the above, I guess if people didn't experiment we wouldn't have all the techniques we use today. AFV weathering is a sea change from where it was in the mid-80's. I got a bit fed up with it all in the 2000's as it all got a bit sheep-like identikit out of a bottle.

[Bullbasket]

On the first point regarding the persons reaction to your comments, to me it's a case of, if you don't want criticism, constructive or otherwise, then don't post photos.

On the second point, ie; rust! You have really got to be careful how you tackle it if you want a realistic finish to a model. There was a 1/35ths scale model of a Centaur for sale on ebay, a year or so ago. Aside from the ridiculous price tag of £150 that he was asking, every thing about the finish of his model was wrong. It was absolutely covered in mud and dust with rusty tracks. As has already been said, tracks don't rust, and these tanks weren't in combat long enough to have been weathered to this extent.

Exhausts are one item that do rust, as well as the shrouds which some tanks carry such as Centurions. I don't add a great deal of rust to my tanks. The places that I will add some rusty run is where equipment has been welded on. Quite often you will get a run down the side of the surface, mixed in with rust.

But a vehicle doesn't have to be in a temperate climate to have rust on it. I sometimes add some rust runs on the sides of my IDF builds. Someone once pulled me up for that, stating that there's virtually no rain in the desert. You don't need rain to make rust. Just spend  night in the desert and see how much condensation is on the vehicle in the morning.

 

John.

[StuartH]

 

[Keeff]

7 hours ago, Kipsley said:

I'm learning so much here. I think I'll stay

 

And we'll all be pleased to hear that! 

 

Regarding the colour of the manganese, I'm thinking a dark tan/copper type of shade (based on the pictures above) may be along the right lines ..... 🤔 

 

Keith 😁 

[Bozothenutter]

21 hours ago, Keeff said:

 

And we'll all be pleased to hear that! 

 

Regarding the colour of the manganese, I'm thinking a dark tan/copper type of shade (based on the pictures above) may be along the right lines ..... 🤔 

 

Keith 😁 

Think along the lines of a manhole cover...

Same alloy, they go a dark brown, but don't rust.

[Bozothenutter]

Found a few good pics

 

 

 

 

These are cast bits, more like tracks would be.

[Pete in Lincs]

Here's a good one. An APC that has been sitting for years. The paint is terrible but the shell is good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9P9fDB7NpA&pp=ygUJbXIgaGV3ZXMg

 

[Crayons]

http://lplaces.com/ua/technique/military

 

A great resource for photo's of vehicles long abandoned in one of the most toxic environments created by humanity, the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone. Of particular note, is the ISU-152, the welds (stainless steel) still show as bright as the day that the vehicle was manufactured, which according to the breach block was sometime in 1945.

[Kingsman]

Picking up on @Crayons point, weld metal does not rust.  For all practical purposes, ever.  Welding has been with us as a widespread manufacturing process only since the 1930s.  Yes it was known about very much earlier but had not been made into a practical usable manufacturing process.  I believe that Ford might have been using what we today call welding as a form of metal deposition to make Model T differential housings instead of casting before WW1.

 

Which means that we only have about 90 years of the history of welding so far.  And so far, no evidence of weld rusting has been found even on vehicles that have been outside since the end of WW2: 79 years.  I know that materials scientists from the likes of UK MOD's Dstl research arm keep an eye on the degradation of preserved AFVs.

 

That being said, any impuritiues in welding rod can potentially cause spot rusting.  But spots, likely invisible in 1/35.  We know that Germany suffered with diminishing weld rod and welder quality from 1943 - the main reason for interlocking the armour plate joins at corners.  So it cannot be said with absolute certainty that no German weld ever displayed spot rusting.  No, this is not an excuse to rust every weld in sight on a German AFV...................  Or even add any rust visible in the scales we work in.

 

On mild steels like fenders, stowage boxes etc it would be possible for rust to develop alongside weld beads where the weld is proud of the surface so that it collects water which then sits on the mild steel inducing corrosion.  But that would not affect the weld itself.

[Kingsman]

@Bozothenutter's photo of a brand new track link on a blue background above captures the native colour of a steel track alloy containing Manganese very well.  The colour would vary according to the Manganese content.  More Manganese would mean a more goldy shade.  The usual description is goldy-brown metallic.

 

You would rarely see factory-fresh links like this.  They will be dirty before they've even completed the shipping process, and oxidation will begin.  Slowly.  Very slowly by mild steel standards.  Below are a few examples of oxidised tracks all many decades old, accepting that most have spent much of their lives indoors in the dry.

 

Where you do sometimes see rust on some modern tanks is on metal parts of rubber-padded tracks.  Why? because these parts don't necessarily need to be made of a manganese-containing alloy and hardened steel without it will sometimes do, especially for parts not in ground contact like end connectors.  Sprocket rings do not generally contain manganese, for example: their teeth are just hardened.  So why bother with manganese end connectors. 

 

Note the words "sometimes see..... on some modern tanks".  So this is not an excuse to slather rust all over your Grant, Stuart or Sherman end connectors.  These did contain manganese and were universal on both rubber and steel track types.

 

    

[Pig of the Week]

I was amused to see the statement "Welds never rust", having done a great deal of welding, for a living, over several decades, I can assure you that welds do most certainly rust. 

This assumes the electrode rod or filler rod used is of a mild steel composition. 

Obviously some special purpose types, stainless etc, would be different, (what ever the application is will determine what is used and it will be to a design  specification ) Have a look at some old rusty welded ships. 

[IanC]

More dirt and dust. Less chips and rust.

 

That's always been my maxim for weathering in-service, wartime AFVs. It can on occasions make for a pretty bland model, though, so I can understand why some people prefer a more 'artistic' approach.

[Kingsman]

@Pig of the Week I should have been clearer.  Welds on armour plate - which we are talking about - have been proven over 90 years and more not to rust, and armour plate is most certainly not welded with mild steel rod.  It is a much higher quality rod than that, even in Germany towards the end of WW2.  You would know better than me the likely composition, but I'm thinking something like Cr/Ni or 18-8 stainless steel.  The latter would certainly work with arc welding homogenous plate.  I am uncertain whether German industry was using gas or arc welding but I suspect both.

 

But the mild plate fixtures and fittings like bins and fenders would almost certainly have been welded with mild rod, which as you pertinently point out would rust.  As we have covered before, there are many peripheral parts of most AFVs that will rust.  But too many people unthinkingly apply that to the whole thing.

[Tim R-T-C]

I think there would be great scope for a book or series of books on realistic weathering - not a how to achieve the results book, there are plenty of those - but one with pictures of real tanks and planes and indications of where different tanks and planes actually show weathering and corrosion.

 

For example, where on a Spitfire would you expect to see oil leaks, fuel stains, scratches etc in normal use.

 

Where on a T-62 would you get rust and scratches in normal use, then on an abadoned example?

[Pig of the Week]

Fair comment @Kingsman.... I'd think any structural welding on armour would've been arc welded for sure, gas would've probably been used more as a cutting medium, as per some of the rough looking edges on exposed plates on German tanks particularly. The Russians too were more interested in knocking out as many tanks as possible without much regard for fine finish!