Catching Pictures in the Air

[keefr22]

9 hours ago, perdu said:

I own a piece of RAF dayglo sheet which failed to make it onto the Jet Provosts in Linton On Ouse in the early seventies and remains here in comparison custody, unfaded

 

Ahh, but that's probably dayglo red Bill, that came as sheet or tape & didn't fade, which is why it replaced dayglo orange paint, which did - a lot!

 

I'll shuddup my face now...

 

Keith

[CJP]

This is one imposing model happening here - so impressed with the masking and painting techniques you are using - really looking forward to see the end result

CJP

[perdu]

Bet youre right Keith.  

One reason this thread has my attention is this faded glory stuff, which Tony tackles so brilliantly

Its not ALL about the incredible innards after all

 

 

( I was happily boasting about the dayglo tape, now the dream bubble's busted).

[TheBaron]

13 hours ago, keefr22 said:

Confusing business though, isn't it

I should say so!

13 hours ago, keefr22 said:

I'm still not entirely certain what's going on.

12 hours ago, Martian Hale said:

I'm completely confused as to what is going on at the moment but I have complete confidence that it will all turn out splendidly.

 

12 hours ago, perdu said:

I have never been so GLAD that the forum software carries that confused smiley

To summarize last night's verbiage I put together a visual chronology to try and help others navigate the streams of time and colour:

This matches my understanding of the various T.O. documents concerned and Giorgio provides a similar breakdown here in written form:

Regarding the timeline for this build then: the capsule recovery mission took place in August of 1960, which places 51-8037 potentially in either of the first two colour panels above - that is to say, 'still in ANA 634' vs. 'freshly painted in ANA 633'.

Does a colour comparison help?

No!

Because 51-8037 was transferred to Wright Field in 1963 to be preserved in the USAF collection and as I discovered in my reasearches last evening - this shot from 1972 shows her with all the orange removed completely!

^{Image Credit: Glen Chatfield}

The trail goes could at this point then.

Some time in the 9 years between her being retired and this shot being taken, she was cleaned up (any remaining original fluorescent orange presumably having badly weathered away due to permanent exposure), meaning that what we are seeing in colour photos of 51-8037 are subsequent paint jobs done since she entered the USAF museum collection.

11 hours ago, bbudde said:

Hello Tony, use any colour you like

 

If I had to guess Benedikt, I'd say that in August of 1960 she may not yet have been painted in the newer ANA 633 specification, so I'm going to run with that.

1 hour ago, perdu said:

 

One reason this thread has my attention is this faded glory stuff, which Tony tackles so brilliantly like a colourblind Tasmanian devil on a hot tin roof.

 

Had to correct your phrasing there Bill as it veered dangerously close to implying more than blind instinct.

2 hours ago, CJP said:

This is one imposing model happening here - so impressed with the masking and painting techniques you are using - really looking forward to see the end result

I find your faith most heartening mister and shall return to the fray emboldened.

 

Day off today so hope to have something to show later.....

 

 

 

 

 

[keefr22]

1 hour ago, TheBaron said:

(any remaining original fluorescent orange presumably having badly weathered away due to permanent exposure),

 

Or, if rumours were correct, because the paint was radioactive it might have been scrubbed off!

1 hour ago, TheBaron said:

'still in ANA 634' vs. 'freshly painted in ANA 633'.

 

My two pence worth, looking at those earlier stills (with all the necessary caveats) would be faded 634....

 

Keith

 

[TheBaron]

3 hours ago, keefr22 said:

Or, if rumours were correct, because the paint was radioactive it might have been scrubbed off!

I'd read that!

Health and Safety gone mad of course....

3 hours ago, keefr22 said:

looking at those earlier stills (with all the necessary caveats) would be faded 634....

That was indeed my mission earlier.

 

Cynics may by now have assumed that I've based this paint scheme upon one of our bedroom rugs.

Such scurrilous rumours are, of course, balderdash..

 

Mixing paints straight onto the aircraft is effectively process of sketching with hue to develop something that works to your eye and like all such processes, if you see something you don't think is working, remove it and begin afresh. I'd noticed for example that some of my yellow underpainting had been too intense, with lines a little too prominent through the subsequent layers. This would have given a linear appearance to effects that I wanted to be non-geometric, so I sanded off the offending regions:

I'm calling the resulting paint effect above 'Damaged Freighter from Babylon 5 #3'.

As long as you take your time, you can knock back these mistakes and begin afresh with a polished surface. No harm done:

With a mental picture of how I wanted the final appearance to look, I started out by misting on some khaki (about 40/60 dilution) to block in highlights:

Less intense and more diffuse for lateral sides more often at an angle to strong overhead sunlight:

Don't worry about the kind of damage you see at the root of the starboard fin - even damage of that visibility can be easily blended away using this approach. Same thing for errant paint splashes (ask me how I know...).

Khaki over black gives a slightly flourescent-looking green in places - not what I want in this instance but you want to log any chance effects such as this for later possible use:

Then a misting of Tamiya's 'Flat Flesh' to start to give some muted warmth across surfaces:

What I'm trying with these pale warm 'mists' of colour is to get rid of any extreme underlying tonal contrasts and start bring out colour variations with as much subtlety as possible across surfaces:

You don't so much want the 'right' colour (s) at this stage as a narrow range of varying tones to the colour base:

By 'you want' of course, what I mean in this instance is to produce something plausible in the way of sunfade on fluorescent orange, where the paint is still on the aircraft but starting to discolour from prolonged exposure to UV and salt-laden air. After applying the flesh I experimented by knocking together a fluorescenty-looking 'glaze' layer from Tamiya's Clear Red, Clear Orange and flat yellow, thinned heavily for application:

This was really getting close to what I saw in my mind's eye as a faded fluorescent orange so I had to force myself to slow down and take these last stages slowly and carefully - not just overdoing it but also making sure to keep the effects of a consistent extremity around the different surface of the aircraft:

The initial application consisted of painting small areas close-up to add variation where required:

Before the last two passes being lighlty misted coats sprayed on higher pressure from a distance:

As with the flesh tones, here at the final orange stage it was a case of trying to tie variations together into believable regions:

Interestingly enough, I found that pausing to take photographs periodically made for a good method of critical scrutiny before proceeding to the next stages.

That's enough I think.

Or at least as close as I'll get to a faded version of ANA 634.

When moving that around in the light now there's a nice feeling of life and variation to those surfaces, without it looking too stylized. Actually, when you move the aircraft out from under the bright bench lighting so that just indirect diffuse light is falling on it, the present orange has a real nice - slightly fluorescent believe it or not - radiance to it that I think the final glaze layers helped punch out. Either that or Tamiya's Clear Red has radioactive materials in it....

 

I think I worked out why I was getting paint running back down the needle shaft into the air valve region earlier too; the teflon needle seal up front on the Iwata was loose and needed a slight tighten to grip the needle a little more firmly. Another learning experience working out howto access that....

 

Right. I hope you like what you're seeing now; a bit of a rollercoaster in the last 24 hours getting here.

 

Thanks as ever for the advice and support that got us to this particular plateau.

Tony

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bbudde]

Much, much, much better, Tony

[perdu]

This is really getting there now Tony (I like the rug !) too and the fin looks far better too

 

I wish I was Baronially patient with painting, fancy subbing a pair of Buccs for me?

 

(Kidding, I'm looking at the airbrushes on the bay, with a background current of 'It's my birthday soon...' You never know)

[Brandy]

Beautiful!

I'll never manage that as I just don't have the patience or artistic knowledge of colour to achieve, nor will I ever try! 

 

Ian

[keefr22]

I like that Tony!! Going to look really good against the aluminium airframe!

 

Keith

 

 

[Spookytooth]

Looking good Tony.

The "Day-Glo" looks nice and faded.

 

And thanks for the cocoa.

 

Simon.

[The Spadgent]

Oooh you know I love orange! Sorry, red, eearrkkk orangyreddayglo. What ever it is it’s a wonderful hue. Splendid if a little anarchic work Tony my man. She’s coming on a real treat.

Johnny Terrys Chocolate ......

[CedB]

11 hours ago, TheBaron said:

The trail goes could at this point then.

That typo makes the whole post very Zen (yes, there has been wine tonight!)  

As Yogi Berra said, when you come to a fork in the road, take it.

 

7 hours ago, TheBaron said:

Right. I hope you like what you're seeing now

I do! For me (a blast the paint on guy) you're getting faded orange beautifully.

Sorry, I'll go quiet again now....

[hendie]

believe it or not but I have actually posted in this thread over the last few days, but don't ask me where my posts went.... probably another forum upgrade

 

 

suffice to say, I only have one word for all this....

 

 

 

 

many people have attempted McGeoch's masterpiece, but no-one, not even Robert Smith can play it as fluently and as effortlessly as dear old John McG.

 

[Andwil]

Fascinating alchemical colourications.

 

AW

[giemme]

Impressive, just that!

 

You have a totally different approach in getting tonal variations in 1/72 compared to what I do, and this is really fascinating  

 

Ciao

[TheBaron]

20 hours ago, bbudde said:

Much, much, much better, Tony

Appreciate that Benedikt - thanks! 😁

20 hours ago, perdu said:

This is really getting there now Tony

Thanks Bill; the Alcald will be a doddle after the orange adventures then I reckon eh? 🤭

20 hours ago, perdu said:

I'm looking at the airbrushes on the bay, with a background current of 'It's my birthday soon

IIRC there was a stand at Telford in the trader's area (can't recall their name) who had a bunch of Neos running for people to play with if you wanted to handle the goods before buying.

 

Looks like my getting over for this year's show is unlikely  as we've just had quotes to get our eldest insured to learn to drive and it's coming in at nearly three grand for the year. And that's only for a little Peugeot 206 three door....

20 hours ago, limeypilot said:

Beautiful!

I'll never manage that as I just don't have the patience or artistic knowledge of colour to achieve, nor will I ever try! 

Much too kind Ian for what is at best a series of speculative forays with an airbrush and some coloured liquids.

19 hours ago, keefr22 said:

I like that Tony!! Going to look really good against the aluminium airframe!

Ta Keithster.

The whole colour-contrast thing is something I have to keep reminding myself about repeatedly during these stages as no point getting something to look ok against primer only for it to look awry amongst the final scheme. I've taken to just having a screen-size display of the single  colour I'm working towards on a tablet beside the spray booth so that you can quickly flick your glance back and forth to assess progress.

16 hours ago, Spookytooth said:

And thanks for the cocoa.

Pink gins later then for those kind words. 🙂

14 hours ago, The Spadgent said:

Splendid if a little anarchic work Tony my man.

My motto: 'Never purchase the correct colour beforehand - try and find it later on the aircraft.'

Thanks Johnny. 

13 hours ago, CedB said:

As Yogi Berra said, when you come to a fork in the road, take it.

What was that? 👂

Four candles?

13 hours ago, CedB said:

Sorry, I'll go quiet again now....

Never do that Ced.

How would we find out about tools for one thing? 😉

12 hours ago, hendie said:

suffice to say, I only have one word for all this....

I think my favourite Banshees track - that urgent skirl of sound never grows old.

Nice!

 

Dunno what was up with your disappearing posts? I occasionally get the opposite problem of the software seeming on a hair trigger that it posts when I inadvertantly brush a finger over the trackpad in the midst of typing....

11 hours ago, Andwil said:

Fascinating alchemical colourications.

Awwwww.

You say the nicest things AW. 😄

Thanks!

8 hours ago, giemme said:

You have a totally different approach in getting tonal variations in 1/72 compared to what I do, and this is really fascinating

I draw my inspiration from this....

 

This was meant to be a quick lunchtime update so I'll crack on.

 

I got the roundels masked off in preparation for some colouring-in:

 

[perdu]

It's not going to be the same if you stay away you silly lad, think on!

 

I've been looking at Harder and Steenman for about sixtytwosquids on the recommendations of doc gn in Pistonheads

 

Seems viable, anyone else able to give them a nod?

 

Anyone?

[keefr22]

9 minutes ago, perdu said:

Seems viable, anyone else able to give them a nod?

 

 

Yep! I've bombed out my two Iwata's in favour of two H&S's, after the needle seals in both of the former dissolved after putting cellulose thinner through them to clean after using stuff like Alclad. I bought the 'entry level' H&S Ultra (which is the one I think you mean Bill?) as that comes as standard with a PTFE seal, & I actually got the 'two in one' version as it comes with a 0.2 and 0.4 needles/nozzles and two different size paint cups. I liked it so much that I sold some of the stash to buy an Evolution CRplus to go with it. This is simply because I'm a lazy toad & I can keep the 0.4 needle in the Ultra & 0.2 in the Evolution, & as they have quick change connectors it just takes a second or so to change a brush. If you could stretch to the extra 20 quid Bill, I'd definitely recommend the 2 in 1 as the extras seem like good value to me.

 

I also find both the H&S's much, much easier to clean than the Iwata's I had. You can probably tell I really like them!

 

Keith

[keefr22]

43 minutes ago, TheBaron said:

IIRC there was a stand at Telford in the trader's area (can't recall their name)

 

Might have been Little Cars (or Modelling Tools UK I think they might call themselves now?), they usually have a few brushes set up to test.

 

43 minutes ago, TheBaron said:

we've just had quotes to get our eldest insured to learn to drive and it's coming in at nearly three grand for the year. And that's only for a little Peugeot 206 three door....

 

Just nuts isn't it? What's the car worth - a grand? My two were lucky as they both passed their tests before insurance went completely crazy and they managed to get 'on the ladder' early. 

 

K

[keefr22]

34 minutes ago, perdu said:

Harder and Steenman

 

Just noticed Bill, it's Harder and Steenbeck - might give you better results if you're googling them.

 

K

[perdu]

Thank you Keith, additions and corrections noted and accomodated

😱

 

As for insurance quotes Tony maybe you are looking to insure the wrong car

A friendly neighbour solicited my advice when his son wanted to acquire a motor car after passing his test

He wanted a whizz bang little Ford or Vauxhall as his first run around, I advised him to consider a less 'Boy racy' type

He was getting Three to Five grand quotes for his types of car

He took the advice and began looking for different styles of car, a late model Mondeo for about 1200 quid got quotes of nearer 500/600 for insurance with taking on a 'black box' too

 

And got all the birds at college busting to ride along in luxurious comfort

 

He later got a job with a Ford dealers and got to have the Focus Whizzomobile he wanted, insured by the company

 

Just a thought

 

😉

[corsaircorp]

Hello Tony !

Look great, you did a pristine job on this red that is actually orange but reddish that turn yellow when faded….

Note to myself… CC avoid faded arctic red….

Very good job, Come on Dear Baron, the end is at hand !!

Sincerely.

CC

[TheBaron]

5 hours ago, perdu said:

As for insurance quotes Tony maybe you are looking to insure the wrong car

The Peugeot wasn't so much as a choice Bill as an aunt of mine gifted it to us for the boys to learn on after her own son passed away. For sentimental family reasons it's what the lads will use.

If you ever thought UK insurance was bad, getting insured in Ireland  - as in many other service costs -  is largely a case of small market = price gouging cartels, allied to a pathetic regulatory system.

3 hours ago, corsaircorp said:

Come on Dear Baron, the end is at hand

I hear you saying that in an epic voice CC!

 

Masking up earlier I had a minor casualty:

Those goshdarnedmetherflappin doors have been nothing but trouble, being - as I suspect - only designed to be posed open. Before gluing that back on I'll stick some pieces of scrap card around the insides of the opening to act as a sill for the door to sit on. I should probably have done that the first time out all things being equal. Not a big problem as this area hasn't finished being primed yet anyway.

 

I'd  also gotten the rather more complicated masking for the negative spaces around the nose numbers done. In lining this up I found that  Italeri don't seem to have the 'cheek' windows (the two differently-sized ones below the main side windows of the cockpit on either side at floor level) in quite the right place. In reality the rear of the square one of the two should line up with the forward edge of the first square cockpit window from the front above it. Italeri seem to have the rear of the square one displaced backwards from this position by about 1.5mm or so:

As my own canopy was built to match the original one in dimensions this throws the rear demarcation line of the orange sides out by the same amount in respect to the cockpit framing. You only notice the mismatch on this build because of where that border between orange and metal lies on this particular scheme. As this discovery comes so late in the day there's nowt to be achieved by agonizing over anyway so it so it's livable with.

 

I wondered why I kept getting cat's hairs stuck in the edges of the masking....

With that done I then got down to spraying the insignia red:

I remembered Giorgio's advice so grabbed a jar of this whilst in Dublin on Tuesday:

A layer of that down first:

Followed by white (unlike the flourescent panels, the roundels don't show much visible evidence of weathering on these birds), and then peel the masks off:

Heyyyyyy. This Oramask stuff is magic. Beautiful crisp outlines.

 

A bit of white overspray on the main wing roundels (note to self: magnifier on next time) but nothing that won't be concealed by the metal border between roundel and orange paintwork later:

It's from this angle that I've really come to take pleasure in painting rather than decalling:

That can have the night to dry now.

I'll stick the undercarriage door back on as well before bed and then tomorrow if possible I'd like to get the orange panels masked in preparation for underpainting in advance of metal work with Alclad at the weekend.

 

Looking through my reference photos I notice that there is a striking amount of uniformity to the metal surfaces of these aircraft (you can't take the exposed condition she was in kept outdoors at Wright Field as typical for such matters). A sister aircraft 51-8039 seems to have had particularly distressed fluorescents for example, but the metal surfaces aren't exhibiting any variations as dramatic as that

 

It looks attractively shabby doesn't it?  However enticing that might be,  I'm not going to fall into the trap of inventing fictitious weathering of the same extremity on 51-8037 without any evidence of same at the time of her recovery mission.

 

On the subject of metal I also picked up a bag of this stuff from Mark's Models whilst I was in Dublin:

I

Perhaps under the influence of 'svengali' @hendie (Spellbound again?) I'm finding the brass collection is necessarily expanding (think Anson frameworks for example...) and I'm starting to get to that point where a range of parts needs laying down. This is the K&S 'odds n' sods' collection of offcuts which I was delighted to discover they had in stock; tubes, squares and sheets. Perfect to draw upon when getting beyond the size of Albion Alloys' stuff. The most pressing need this will meet is to build the exhausts for the IC from 2.5mm tubing - I reckon in metal they'll look much sharper at this scale.

 

Under the influence of Jonathan Meades, Ian Nairn, and a pal of mine in Belfast who shares similar predelictions, I find myself wandering around Dublin with an eye on the things we're normally rushing past. This place for example:

Just around the corner from Trinity College and I've walked past it for years. Late 19th C. and currently up for sale. It's like a void in the space-time continuum letting you spy on the past through a crack in the present - something jauntily dignified the way it sits quietly watching.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/johnny-ronan-made-an-offer-they-had-no-difficulty-refusing-1.3396814

Then around the corner this place form the earliy 19th C., the Dublin Gaslight Company.

This always looks to me like an eccentric Georgian building grew from underneath a Tudor one, pushing it up in to the sky Terry Gilliam-style.

Then there was this:

I thought I was seeing things when I glimpsed it through the window until I realized I was actually outside the (rather discreet) Irish Aviation Authority building. That's one of those big fans that shove cattle trucks round the skies and of little interest to me personally, however chancing my arm I popped inside and asked the security guard if I could have a look around as I'd spotted this sitting across from it:

A beautifully restored Twin Wasp, which the plaque stated came from an old Aer Lingus DC-3. With an R4D-5 in the stash it seemed a precaution to get some reference shots in.

I marvel at these things as much as any sculpture.

 

Ok.

So the Iron Chicken is getting towards the end as CC said above.

I'm not going to rush this bittersweet part of the build.

 

Tony

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[corsaircorp]

Hello Tony,

Thanks for sharing the pics, however I toured the green island, I never get in Dublin…. 😩

You're right, Don't rush, These Oramask are magic !! Great work !

I already get decals that are oversprayed too…

So I stay in awe ! Really great !

Sincerely.

CC

PS; But I did get in a town that welcome you with these words, "Welcome, You surely have had a long way to came here !!"