1/72 McDD F-4 C Phantom II, Hasegawa/Monogram kitbash - COMPLETED!

[Gene K]

... air pressure control window before! Is it only open when engines running?

It's a fixed clear window behind which you can read the accumulator pneumatic pressure gauge, as on preflight ... 3,000psi. The air is used for normal and emergency operations as emergency gear and flap lowering, RAT (Ram Air Turbine) extension, etc. It's on all Phantoms as on the E model below, right side only.

Gene K

Edited December 7, 2015 by Gene K

[keefr22]

Thanks Gene!

[Biggles87]

There's some really useful information coming out of this thread, as well as the photos. I'm going to bookmark it for when I get around to building my 1/32 F-4C , I've only had it about 15 years!

Cheers

John

[Biggles87]

Oops finger trouble

Edited December 7, 2015 by Biggles87

[giemme]

Thanks everybody for commenting, and thanks Gene for the great pics! I'm under the impression that the cockpit detailing is going to take quite some time ...

Ciao

EDIT: bl...y spell checker, "Gene" became "General". Now fixed.

Edited December 7, 2015 by giemme

[PlaStix]

More fantastic progress on your kit-bashing project! Fascinating stuff! Well done.

[Cookenbacher]

Jerry looks like a stalwart fellow, and his 1/72 likeness is in good hands as Giemme is an excellent figure painter.

[Gene K]

Jerry looks like a stalwart fellow ....

Yes, he spent a lot of time at Cam Rahn chasing Nurses and Donut Dollies.

Giorgio, since you are doing control sticks, here are some refs:

The grips were black plastic mounted to gray control sticks (but I have seen some black), with a silver screw-on between them. Here's some color:

Gene K

Edit: By the way, here's an outstanding build with some good refs.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Gene K

[Gene K]

Sorry for the large pictures - I'll downsize in the future ... after this one (so y'all can read some of it)!!

Phil,

Nice Phantom collection. Looks like there's room for the very nice Academy 1/72 kit ... although you seem to be an Air Force fan.

John,

Looking forward to that 1/32 Recce Bird. As for large scale Phantoms, the 1/18 series above unfortunately never came to fruition. Giorgio would have a ball detailing that one!

 

Gene K

Edited July 3, 2017 by Gene K

[giemme]

Gene, you're a gold mine in terms of references! Thank you very much for those control sticks pics!

As for large scale Phantoms, the 1/18 series above unfortunately never came to fruition. Giorgio would have a ball detailing that one!

I recently decided I'll never do a 1/32 kit because a) that would take up too much display space (most of the house is off-limits for that) and b ) detailing a 1/32 kit would probably drive me completely crazy (so long to the relaxing hobby, then ) 1/18 is just insane!!

Ciao

Edit: I didn't know who Donut Dollies were, had to google that :D

Jerry looks like a stalwart fellow, and his 1/72 likeness is in good hands as Giemme is an excellent figure painter.

Cooken, thanks for the appreciation. I never painted figures that small, anyway. Luckily little Jerry is wearing a helmet, while little Gene isn't ... that's going to be a hard task!

Edited December 7, 2015 by giemme

[baldwin8]

I love shot of your backseater Gene. I noticed this F-4 had the backseater mirrors mounted on the arc assembly between the canopies rather than the canopy itself.

[Gene K]

... this F-4 had the backseater mirrors mounted on the arc assembly between the canopies rather than the canopy itself.

Hmmmmm. That configuration is all I remember from 13 years in the F-4C,D, and E. I recall the outside mirrors when they first showed up at Bitburg (Germany) around 1972 (E models by then), but those were on top, not side. Further down the line when the outside side mirrors were introduced, I don't know if the "regular" ones were then removed. To me, the mirrors weren't any help tactically, but were useful in air refueling (check the boom (behind)), formation (check wingmen), and taxiing. I suppose the outside mirrors were useful since they remained on the airplanes ...

Sorry, not much help about the mirrors.

Giorgio, you asked for links to details as to what was "behind" in the cockpits: check here . The area behind the pilot's seat was a tangled mess, but mainly wires coming out of the backs of the rear seat instruments ... which should be good enough in 1/72. But remember that the airplane in the picture is in absolutely terrible/horrible shape , so DO NOT weather the cockpits like that!!!!

Gene K

[Procopius]

How curious - and unappealing. I don't really get how a tour as a GIB was thought to make you better able to handle the jet?

I can see how you'd get operational experience (valuable but different) but unless there was a continuous flying training program on the squadron for the GIBs then weren't you just largely marking time in terms of piloting development and competence?

At the time, the USAF's Tactical Air Command was largely in the thrall of (and to some extent under threat from) SAC, who intended to use it as a tactical nuclear delivery service and attempted to clamp down very tightly on what they (SAC) perceived to be an unnecessarily freewheeling service culture. The USAF in the 1960s is a fascinating subject for social study -- former F-4 pilot Marshall Michel has written an excellent book (Clashes) and an arguably more interesting PhD paper on the subject.

[Gene K]

The USAF in the 1960s is a fascinating subject for social study -- former F-4 pilot Marshall Michel has written an excellent book (Clashes) and an arguably more interesting PhD paper on the subject.

The paper looks very interesting, but I'm put off by the author's fabricating a SuperHero Group - the gimmicky "Iron Majors". Without more political analysis, my abbreviated views: the AF "shortcomings" in Vietnam were a result of ridiculous Rules of Engagement coupled with Washington (civiliian) micromanagement; the legendary McNamara and his academicians set the table before the war for failure; the focus after the war on mediocre air to air results really takes away from great success of the rest of the Air Force missions in Viet Nam. Finally, history is repeating itself right now under the present administration, in particular as regards the F-35.

Gene K

Edited December 8, 2015 by Gene K

[giemme]

Giorgio, you asked for links to details as to what was "behind" in the cockpits: check here .

That's exactly what I was looking for!! In all my previous searches on Internet (including the ones I did when doing my F-4J) I never came across this link, must refine my searching criteria

The area behind the pilot's seat was a tangled mess, but mainly wires coming out of the backs of the rear seat instruments ... which should be good enough in 1/72. But remember that the airplane in the picture is in absolutely terrible/horrible shape , so DO NOT weather the cockpits like that!!!!

I'll behave, I promise. Not too much weathering in the cockpit. :D

So, where were we? Ah yes, missing picture about the arrestor hook removal:

It's now time to deal with the seamless intake; Gene has provided me with all is needed to replicate the job he had already done on port side. The main thing is the intake template:

You need to use this to cut out your intake from a Styrene sheet (I don't remember the thickness, Gene, sorry), and fold it over the jet engine face, following also the lines marked in red:

All you need to do is to glue it along the border, which I did using Tamiya Green Cap and Tamiya tape to hold it in place; then the engine face can be removed for painting. Gene has also provided resin copies of those parts; one of them had probably a bubble in it, so I'll have to figure out a way to repair it:

One must not forget to add the small mounting hole for the sensor that sits inside the intake:

Now: front fuselage half glued to the corresponding back part

Time to bring up the actual intake parts: the back plate had already been painted white by Gene, and anyway at this point it must be like that, as later is going to be impossible to reach for it

A bit of a dryfit, using a big blob of blue tack to hold the intake together with the internal plate:

I then glued the two parts of the intake together; this is probably slightly different from what Gene normally does, IIRC

To allow for some adjustment in placing the intake, I enlarged the (remaining) receiving hole on the fuselage - the pin is on the back part of the inside portion of the intake

There it is, again glued with Tamiya Green Cap

the key here is to align the panel lines that run a little over the horizontal centerline of the intake. This of course generates quite a big step on the top part of the intake, as you can see here:

and even better here:

so I'll have to get out my ETS and start sanding back. On the above pic, you can also see that I've already inserted the seamless sleeve. Here it is from inside:

Notice that the bottom bracket that was attached to the front fuselage part has now gone; it just gets in the way, and I found it really useful only to help positioning back and front part prior to gluing them.

Here's how it looks from the front:

I then used a cocktail stick to make the sleeve conform to the intake

then I ran a bit of Tamiya Green Cap along the outside border of the intake, to set the sleeve in place (I've also added some PPP on top of the intake join, as you can see)

then I started cutting out the excess plastic from the sleeve

I let this settle overnight; what I need to do now is to refine the cut using a needle file - which is going to be today's task

Comments welcome

Ciao

[Spookytooth]

A lot of work there Giemme, but worth it.

By the time you have blended the intake lips in they will look fantastic.

Simon.

[GAF]

Excellent work on the intake, Giemme! I do wonder if it might have been easier to sand the intake down before attaching it to the fuselage?

I would worry about dislodging it.

[Gene K]

I don't remember the thickness [of the seamless intake styrene],

.010" (.005" is too flimsy, and melts too much conforming to the intake lip, while .015" is too stiff)

Looking good!

For those who don't have the time, or don't enjoy chopping plastic as much, I can heartily recommend the XMM seamless intakes (reviewed here). Unfortunately, they seem to be sold out most of the time. Other sources have included Goffy Models (they appear to no longer be in business) as well as True Details/KMC (was from Squadron, but can't find). AlleyCat and DMM/DMold have excellent 1/48 intakes, but not 1/72. All in all, Slim Pickens.

Gene K

[Procopius]

The paper looks very interesting, but I'm put off by the author's fabricating a SuperHero Group - the gimmicky "Iron Majors".

I suspect that's more of a framework than Michel used to tie disparate themes in his paper together for the benefit of the academics reading it -- he seems to mostly use the term for combat veterans invested in air combat training, at least by my reading.

Without more political analysis, my abbreviated views: the AF "shortcomings" in Vietnam were a result of ridiculous Rules of Engagement coupled with Washington (civiliian) micromanagement; the legendary McNamara and his academicians set the table before the war for failure; the focus after the war on mediocre air to air results really takes away from great success of the rest of the Air Force missions in Viet Nam.

I think the USAF was very effective in South Viet Nam, but even after many if not all of the absurd Johnson-era ROE restrictions were lifted during LINEBACKERS I and II, it still seemed to falter over North Viet Nam, between very poor SAC staffwork on the B-52 raids and a worse rate of exchange against the MiGs (because in part of the USAF's policy of rotating in pilots from other branches who had minimal A2A training when converting to the F-4) -- though they were admittedly less common a threat than SAMs. I know Michel's contention is that the problems the Air Force had were only exacerbated by ROE, not caused by it, because they persisted after the ROE changed -- even when F-4s had COMBAT TREE for BVR intercepts of MiGs, this didn't prove the overwhelming advantage that it was hoped it would be.

And certainly Michel has some biases -- he was USAF attache to the IAF, which was obsessed with air-to-air combat, and I think he was a little embarrassed by some comments IAF pilots made about USAF skills. I keep meaning to write him a letter, since what does a respected author love more than a friendly missive from some nobody?

Anyhow, my total personal experience with the F-4 consists of tenderly kissing a QF-4E while the crew were distracted by a woman in a tank top, so I absolutely welcome correction -- if you want to PM me about your thoughts on the ROE, well...that would be a little like getting an email from God.

[Cookenbacher]

The 'roll up' intake template is brilliant Gene. You could sell those.

Excellent and meticulous work as always Giemme. This is shaping up to be another wonderful build alright.

[giemme]

A lot of work there Giemme, but worth it.

By the time you have blended the intake lips in they will look fantastic.

Simon.

Cheers Simon, thanks! Intake has been blended in, no trouble; tomorrow I'll post the pics.

Excellent work on the intake, Giemme! I do wonder if it might have been easier to sand the intake down before attaching it to the fuselage?

I would worry about dislodging it.

Thanks GAF! I did reinforce the join of the intake with the fuselage, adding some Tamiya Green Cap from inside. Provided that you let it settle long enough (overnight, in my case) the bond becomes very strong. In fact, as I told Simon, everything went as planned. And I think that sanding the intake after it's been glued just allows for a better blend-in.

.010" (.005" is too flimsy, and melts too much conforming to the intake lip, while .015" is too stiff)

Looking good!

For those who don't have the time, or don't enjoy chopping plastic as much, I can heartily recommend the XMM seamless intakes (reviewed here). Unfortunately, they seem to be sold out most of the time. Other sources have included Goffy Models (they appear to no longer be in business) as well as True Details/KMC (was from Squadron, but can't find). AlleyCat and DMM/DMold have excellent 1/48 intakes, but not 1/72. All in all, Slim Pickens.

Gene K

I don't get this Slim Pickens thing, sorry (although I know who he was)

The 'roll up' intake template is brilliant Gene. You could sell those.

Excellent and meticulous work as always Giemme. This is shaping up to be another wonderful build alright.

Thanks Cooken, I'm glad you like this

Tomorrow for another progress report

Ciao

[yankeemodeller]

This could be considered an "out of box" build, as long as you disclaim it came from about 6 different boxes. This is so entertaining that I have all but quit watching television. Great build guys!!

Edited December 8, 2015 by yankeemodeller

[Gene K]

... easier to sand the intake down before attaching it to the fuselage?

Good point! Each shoulder is a little different as regards sanding down and/or filling, so I find it easier to sand after gluing together. However, in this area I give the glue a full day to set before starting the sanding ... and I reinforce the back with CA. Even with that, this was the joint that separated enroute to Giorgio via a month's journey through the Italian postal "service".

So yes, it would definitely help to also put a thin styrene strip behind that joint to strengthen it as you suggested it should be. We don't want it to become loose like this .

I don't get this Slim Pickens thing ....

Sorry - an "American thing": when something's not readily available and there's little to choose from, the Red Neck expression is "slim pickins" (slim pickings).

Gene K

Edited December 8, 2015 by Gene K

[mirageiv]

This is really great work! I remember copping out of Gene's intake technique for my Phantoms so its good to see it demonstrated here for the future, should make a big difference in the end!

[giemme]

This could be considered an "out of box" build, as long as you disclaim it came from about 6 different boxes. This is so entertaining that I have all but quit watching television. Great build guys!!

:D Out of six different boxes, I like that!

Sorry - an "American thing": when something's not readily available and there's little to choose from, the Red Neck expression is "slim pickins" (slim pickings).

Got it now

This is really great work! I remember copping out of Gene's intake technique for my Phantoms so its good to see it demonstrated here for the future, should make a big difference in the end!

Thanks MirageIV! Gene's seamless intake is easier than it looks, provided that you strictly follow his indications for plastic chopping, and cut out the internal sleeve according to his template. When he first mentioned his method to me, I was quite scared at the idea of trying that out, but it really is very smooth. However, I never asked him how many attempts it took him to come up with that solution, and how he went for designing the right template ...

Ciao