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1/72 McDD F-4 C Phantom II, Hasegawa/Monogram kitbash - COMPLETED!


giemme

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More lovely intricate detail work there Giorgio - that AoA probe is superb!

Fwiw, I'd agree that the Mono 'hump' looks more like the real thing.

Keith

Cheers Keith, thanks :thumbsup: As for the 'hump' after I posted that pic I had time to look for some better pictures, ad it looks that Monogram's too has some shape issues. See below

More amazing detail work Giemme. Every time I drop by there's something new to be fascinated by! The cockpit detail looks superb so far. Looking forward to seeing the paint go on.

Kind regards,

Stix

Thanks Stix, I'm glad you like my effort! :thumbsup:

I think Hasegawa's version of the hump aft of the aft canopy was to make a better definition of the canopy attachment cutouts. moldmaking decisions sometime don't always lead to accurate details.

May be a decision by Hasegawa to make it easier on the modeler -- not to have to scribe the top of the "hump"? Makes it easy to apply a little blending filler and then just add the beacon (in the middle as opposed to Scott's offset F-4E).

Gene K

Giemme,

Nice work on the pit, though I see a lot of "ouch" moments in the future with that AoA probe! :D

Yeah, looks like Hasegawa wanted to make it easier on the modeler. Neither representation of the "hump" is entirely

satisfactory, but you'll need some filler on the Hasegawa version, while a file shoud be taken to the Monogram version

to give it more definition.

Good catch!

Gary

Baldwin, Gene and Gary, thanks for your input; I've been a bit lazy on my previous post about the 'hump', I should now make myself clear: see next pics, yellow line is door 19 outline, while red one is the 'hump' outline:

Real

23522337089_3a46634513_o.jpg

Monogram

23864129426_685f92c0b5_o.jpg

Hasegawa

23890248805_669c5b8336_o.jpg

I apologize for the shaky lines, but I did that in a hurry; besides, I'd need a better pic of the kit part, I'll try that after a dark wash to accentuate the panel lines. Basically, it looks like Monogram has a better shape and size of door 19, but the 'hump' is too short, while Hasegawa's looks a tad too long, and door 19 outline isn't convincing me at all. For the hump, I'm especially referring to the back part of it, towards the tail fin. Even if I blend in the Hasegawa's, it looks like the 'hump' should be shortened and streamlined a fair bit. What do you guys think?

I agree. Top-drawer work on the seats and cockpit generally.

The replacement alpha probe will look excellent. But like Gary says I reckon it'll draw blood before then end of the build!

I guess you'll also now have to make a 1/72 alpha probe guard ........... just like the real thing?

Steve, thank you! :thumbsup: The idea is to show Sandy Bay-Bee during pre-flight checks, so all tags and guards should have already been removed - am I correct, Gene?

BTW, the "ouch" moment already happened twice, but no blood yet ... :banghead:

Ciao

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Steve, thank you! :thumbsup: The idea is to show Sandy Bay-Bee during pre-flight checks, so all tags and guards should have already been removed - am I correct, Gene?

BTW, the "ouch" moment already happened twice, but no blood yet ... :banghead:

Ciao

Poor joke on my part G. I meant you'd need a 1/72 probe guard to protect you during the build........

Didn't want you to cover up your beautiful probe once the build was finished :)

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Poor joke on my part G. I meant you'd need a 1/72 probe guard to protect you during the build........

Didn't want you to cover up your beautiful probe once the build was finished :)

:rofl: got it, now :D :D

Ciao

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I don't know how you're able to keep topping yourself Giemme, but this is incredible detail work even by your high standards. I think that maybe you've discovered some sort of shrink ray technology, and found an actual full size Phantom and are just shrinking it down piece by piece. Come to think of it, I've never seen Gene and 1/72 Gene in the same room at the same time.

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Cookie, you're way too kind, thanks! :)

Come to think of it, I've never seen Gene and 1/72 Gene in the same room at the same time.

Little Gene is still on his sprue, as it's going to be a standing figure, not sitting in the cockpit. I needed to take care of little Jerry to avoid surprises after I had painted and glued the tub in :banghead:

Ciao

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Giemme,

Not sure if I can advise you on the "hump". If it were me, I would try sanding down the base of the Hasegawa hump at an angle, leaving the

canopy side relatively untouched while shortening the tail side a bit. Then you can putty and sand to fit.

Looking at the photo, and the Monogram fuselage, the Hasegawa panel lines don't seem to match what is shown.

Is that incorrect? I don't know, as we're speaking of two different versions (C versus J) of aircraft (i.e, Hasegawa is a "J", while the Monogram is a "C/D").

Meanwhile, we're looking at a photo of an "E".

Wish I had a better suggestion.

Gary

Edited by GAF
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On 12/21/2015 at 10:53 AM, Fritag said:

Poor joke on my part G.

Obviously not, judging by Giorgio's wounds - joke's on him!

Georgio,

To addresses what you asked:

Yes, the crew chief pulled all the streamers (as tail hook, drag chute), removed all the covers (as AOA probe, pitot tube, bellows), removed all locks (as landing gear), leaving only the Remove Before Flight tags on the ordnance/pylons and tanks. Here’s the airplane typically ready for preflight (we usually had yellow ladders for the front seat):

j14ZIEW-1LIv2S2DvInfkFDCHMM0zIsApCl03Y9O

Since you're working on the cockpit - before the crew arrived, the crew chief typically pulled all the pins on the seat except the face curtain and put them into the red (vinyl?) bag you see here on top of the seat:

h7fZ8ft78xlPDPQ-kaVOWKAGNalEWxZSW2gucb0r

The last pin was removed after the "occupant" was safely strapped in ... the bag carried in the airplane (to be available in case of divert).

Gene

Edited by Gene K
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Hi Giemme,

I fear that now armed with that wonderful alpha probe, the old Phantom might turn a bit vampiratical and will demand regular blood meals!................

Thank you for your sacrifice!

:rofl: :rofl: It's a tough job, but somebody's gotta do it :D :D

Hi Giemme, the pit looks stunning mate. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

And a bit of blu tac on the ouch probe should do the trick.

Simon.

Cheers Simon, thanks! :thumbsup: I'll definitely use some blue tack to prevent wounding, thanks for the tip :thumbsup2:

Giemme,

Not sure if I can advise you on the "hump". If it were me, I would try sanding down the base of the Hasegawa hump at an angle, leaving the

canopy side relatively untouched while shortening the tail side a bit. Then you can putty and sand to fit.

Looking at the photo, and the Monogram fuselage, the Hasegawa panel lines don't seem to match what is shown.

Is that incorrect? I don't know, as we're speaking of two different versions (C versus J) of aircraft (i.e, Hasegawa is a "J", while the Monogram is a "C/D").

Meanwhile, we're looking at a photo of an "E".

Wish I had a better suggestion.

Gary

Thanks Gary, as you say I'll probably refine the back part of the hump, but before attaching it to the spine, and then merge in with some putty. As for the different versions, you have a good point: I would think that the part hasn't changed along versions, but that's nothing more than a wild guess :hmmm:

This just better... exceptional modelling I'd never consider even in 1/32!

Wow!

Thanks Leonl! :thumbsup:

Ciao

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Since you're working on the cockpit - before the crew arrived, the crew chief typically pulled all the pins on the seat except the face curtain and put them into the red (vinyl?) bag you see here on top of the seat:

Preflight%202_900x606.jpg

The last pin was removed after the "occupant" was safely strapped in ... the bag carried in the airplane (to be available in case of divert).

Gene

Thanks for your answer Gene :thumbsup2: I did wonder what the red bag was for when I first saw that pic. Was it staying into the AC also while flying? (not on top of the seat, I suppose?)

Also: what is the face curtain you refer to, please?

TIA

Ciao

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I'm sure that Gene will explain more fully, but I believe the face curtain is attached to the overhead handles and is pulled down over the face when ejection is initiated to provide some protection.

John

Ditto. That's my belief as to what Gene was referring too as well - also seen it referred to as a 'face screen' or 'face blind' - you pulled the firing handle out and down over you head and face and in the process pulled out a canvas screen/blind/curtain that covered your face. IIRC the idea behind an overhead firing handle was to help the occupant adopt a good posture - i.e. straightening the back as you reached up - and the screen gave a measure of blast protection to the face.

The Martin Baker Mk 4 seat fitted to the Jet Provost had both face screen and seat pan firing handles.

I'm not sure what seat was fitted to the F4C - Martin Baker mk5? or mk7? - but I guess it had a seat pan fitting handle as well as the face screen handle (Gene will know :))

Later Martin Baker seats (certainly from the mk9 onwards (but possibly also the mk8?)) did away with the face screen firing handle. The Jaguar and Harrier GR3 had Mk 9 seats and the Hawk and Tornado had Mk 10 seats.

There are several advantages to using the seat pan handle - you can't reach a face screen handle under high G - and it is in any event generally quicker to reach the seat pan firing handle than to reach the face screen handle.

By the Mk 9 seat there was also a powered harness retraction system in place to pull the occupant back into the seat and help with posture - and by then better helmet and oxygen mask design also did away with the need for face screen blast protection. So the face screen firing handle was no more.

Well that's wot I think anyways..... :)

EDIT:

BTW Giorgio - the screen/blind/curtain is stored inside the seat behind the firing handle - so you don't need to model it :) At least I think it is.......

Edited by Fritag
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John and Steve, thanks a lot for your inputs. :thumbsup:

BTW Giorgio - the screen/blind/curtain is stored inside the seat behind the firing handle - so you don't need to model it :)

I wasn't going to ... :D:winkgrin: that'd be too much even for me :coolio:

Ciao

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RAF/RN Phantoms (I can't speak for USAF/USN though) initially had MB Mk5 seats and later MB Mk7's IIRC and yes they had both Face and Pan handles. Our pins were stuck in a little peg board type affair on the right hand side under the combing (again IIRC, it's been a while and all the types I worked on seem to have blended into one superset in my mind!).

I'm still enjoying this thread, lots of interesting stuff happening.

Duncan B

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RAF/RN Phantoms (I can't speak for USAF/USN though) initially had MB Mk5 seats and later MB Mk7's IIRC and yes they had both Face and Pan handles. Our pins were stuck in a little peg board type affair on the right hand side under the combing (again IIRC, it's been a while and all the types I worked on seem to have blended into one superset in my mind!).

I'm still enjoying this thread, lots of interesting stuff happening.

Duncan B

All our jets and little panels for the seat pins to be put in didn't they?

And I seem to remember as a pilot being responsible for taking out (and putting back) more (all?) of the seat safety pins than just the firing handle pins - as part of the pre and post flight checks. Memory may be playing tricks of course - maybe I just checked that they had been removed by the liney.

Edited by Fritag
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Duncan and Steve, thanks very much guys! :thumbsup2:

I'm loving my own thread not because of my modelling but because it's become a great source of info, with noteworthy knowledgeable people participating in :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Ciao

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I do remember taking the pins out and handing them to the aircrew who then, as Fritag said, stowed them in the panel. The one the Phantom guys were most interested in was on the top of the seat (main gun pin?) as that couldn't be got to once the canopy was closed so was a big issue if forgotten (none of them ever were in my time but there were incidents of pins being forgotten about after flight, Harrier pan handle initiating seat as pilot climbed out springs to mind).

Duncan B

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Hi everybody; last night I managed to spray primer on the interiors; usual mix of Vallejo Grey Primer and Future, airbrushed in several thin coats. Here are a few shots:

23922604435_f12628c0fa_b.jpg

23554767819_a3c0c82d10_b.jpg

23896534536_814f43e96a_b.jpg

Tub

23554765979_86dd1c43ab_b.jpg

Pilot's IP

23896532076_3af0c84695_z.jpg

Seats

23295832143_7551eed763_b.jpg

Little Jerry

23295832983_7294bf30f6_z.jpg

Did anybody ask for Little Gene? There he is, off from his sprue:

23896530716_992c42a7ee_b.jpg

Lots of clean-up needed, plus this huge hole in his back:

23626941420_982f9707e2_b.jpg

Fixed using CA and a wine bottle foil strip :drink:

23922596235_ddf343a8e8_b.jpg

His helmet needed some TLC too, so I put on a splash of PPP, and leave it to harden overnight

23626938970_a9bae5640d_b.jpg

While waiting for the primer to dry, I went back to the AAR door template; I tried to sand and correct a little bit the metal one I previously made, but went too far and I had to bin it. So I started all over again, but this time with the help of Giorgio N and Steve's tips, so: using a strip of Tamiya Masking Paper, I copied the AAR door from the MONO kit

23295826853_f91965358e_b.jpg

I stuck the strip onto a transparent paper sheet (Giorgio N) and scribed along using a ruler, a circle template and a sewing machine needle (Steve)

23626937500_df7d1d8f5b_b.jpg

23896537946_4bb3dbd2ce_b.jpg

After some filing

23922604905_ace031c561_b.jpg

Giorgio N is totally right, this material can be sanded and filed very easily (I used a metal needle file to refine it)

I should probably be able to put on another update before Christmas, so stay tuned!

Ciao

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Glad to see that the suggestion of the clear sheets was of use, looking forward to seeing the template in action.

Edit: always wanted to ask and always forgot... with the Monogram kit being OOP and not the easiest to find, what about using the Revell F-4F cockpit for a similar exercise ? I know that the front fuselage of this kit is not really accurate, would the cockpit look good enough for a USAF bird ?

Edited by Giorgio N
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Great work on the cabling in the cockpits, it looks really effective.

Duncan B

Thanks Duncan, I was quite pleased myself about how that specific area turned out, as it looked really messy before primer :banghead:

Glad to see that the suggestion of the clear sheets was of use, looking forward to seeing the template in action.

It's going to take a while before I get there, but I'm looking forward to test it, too.

Edit: always wanted to ask and always forgot... with the Monogram kit being OOP and not the easiest to find, what about using the Revell F-4F cockpit for a similar exercise ? I know that the front fuselage of this kit is not really accurate, would the cockpit look good enough for a USAF bird ?

We should really ask Gene about that, but as far as I can remember, he mentioned to me that there have been big changes in terms of IPs layout, with for instance E-model back seater IP so stuffed up with various things that made outside front visibility almost impossible. I know that the F-4F was a sort of simplified F-4E, but my knowledge ends there.

Ciao

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I'm not sure what seat was fitted to the F4C - Martin Baker mk5? or mk7? - but I guess it had a seat pan fitting handle as well as the face screen handle (Gene will know :))

Later Martin Baker seats (certainly from the mk9 onwards (but possibly also the mk8?)) did away with the face screen firing handle. The Jaguar and Harrier GR3 had Mk 9 seats and the Hawk and Tornado had Mk 10 seats.

There are several advantages to using the seat pan handle - you can't reach a face screen handle under high G - and it is in any event generally quicker to reach the seat pan firing handle than to reach the face screen handle.

By the Mk 9 seat there was also a powered harness retraction system in place to pull the occupant back into the seat and help with posture - and by then better helmet and oxygen mask design also did away with the need for face screen blast protection. So the face screen firing handle was no more.

Fritag is correct. The F-4 MB5 seat had both the face curtain and pan firing handles.

When we got into the seat, two pins were supposed to be remaining in the seat, the rest were already stowed in the red bag. The red bag usually resting on the top of the seat, but sometimes on the cockpit (can I say that?) sill. One of the "un-stowed" pins guarded the face curtain handles to avoid accidentally pulling the curtain out while getting into the seat. I forget where the other pin was, but I think it was amongst the linkages on the back of the seat. Once strapped in, the crew chief would take pains to show that the pins were removed by showing you the bag before handing it over. The two pins were actually hanging out of the bag to show they were there - that the lines had not just been pulled and the pins remaining in the seat.

The drill was reversed upon landing, unless you were accomplished at placing the face curtain pin above and behind you on your own. Not always easy while wearing full kit.

The interesting thing with two seat firing options was the egress training that went something like this:

- The seat pan handle was preferred, unless the stick was full aft (not a problem in Navy Phantoms?), otherwise use the face curtain.

- If you use the face curtain, like the seat handle, it had to be fully extended to fire the seat.

- If the first option did not fire the seat, keep applying tension and try the alternate handle.

If the seat still didn't fire? The Phantom seat would not fire through the canopy, so it was entirely possible that the seat was armed, but the canopy was the problem. Sooo...

- retain tension on both seat handles and use the normal canopy opening switch (under the left sill IIRC), making sure to keep your elbows in tight and away from the cockpit sills in case the seat fires. If that didn't work...

- retain tension on both handles and try the manual canopy lever - on the right canopy sill (see giemme's cockpit detail). Keep those elbows in. If that didn't work...

- retain tension on both handles and use the emergency canopy opening lever - on the left canopy sill (giemme's included that, too). If that didn't work, it wasn't your day and it was time to try for a manual bail-out...

- Forget the tension on the handles, forget keeping the elbows in, and go for the canopy beaker tool under the right cockpit sill. This was a short heavy knife with a curved blade - think of a very short Bowie knife. and start trying to make a hole in the canopy big enough to jump out through after you've disconnected all of your seat connections.

I think most of us thought the steps after the normal canopy actuator switch were just to keep you busy and give you something to do while you rode the aircraft to impact.

Corkey Meyer, Grumman test pilot, tells a great story about an imploded canopy, a failed, but possibly armed, seat and landing the XF10F on the Edwards lake bed while holding the face curtain between his teeth.

Apologies for the long post, but this F-4 stuff brings back weird and fond memories.

Sven

Old Viper Tester

Edited by Old Viper Tester
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