Shackleton & Avro 707 under threat?

[stever219]

I've heard that the Manchester Museum of Science & Industry is closing its aviation section and that consequently the Shackleton, Avro 707 and Tornado F. Mk. 3 are about to become homeless or, more probably, saucepans. The former pair are, I believe, owned by the RAF Museum which might ensure their long term futures, but the Electric Flick Knife is also an endangered species: very few F. Mk. 3s have escaped the evil clutches of the scrap merchants (OK, as a fighter it wasn't our finest hour, but nor were the early Avon-engined Hunters). Anyone got anything a bit more substantial on this?

[richw_82]

The Shackleton is rumoured to be heading to Cosford.

[Ascoteer]

OK, as a fighter it wasn't our finest hour

By the end of its life the F3 was a hugely capable interceptor.

[BritJet]

I was there about a month ago and the aircraft section seemed a bit run-down with the upstairs section closed off, the lift not working and very few staff to be seen. Just before I left I put a few quid in the donations box and a member of staff seemed extremely grateful that I had done that! It would be shame if the museum does have to lose any of it's exhibits as it is a very interesting place with the aircraft section being just one part.

The Tornado wasn't there on my visit, has it ever been displayed there as I've only seen references to it being in store for future display?

Steve

[stuartp]

Details here (scroll down a lot):

http://www.manchesterconfidential.co.uk/news/mosi-the-ordsall-chord-and-ditching-the-air-space-gallery

Quote

“We lease the old market building that forms the Air and Space Gallery from the council,” says Macdonald. “We’re currently doing some exploratory work on the condition of the roof. It’s a beautiful building and the planes are much loved but it’s impossible to heat and it needs a lot of work to bring it up to scratch. We are looking at a range of options but most of the planes are on loan from the RAF museum and aren’t really part of our story.”

Sounds ominous.

“So you’re looking to leave that building?” I say, surprised.

“In due course we will leave it. We do think in the longer term we need to invest in the buildings we own on this side of Lower Byrom Street. We have to tell the stories that are relevant to them and to science and industry. If we invested in the Air and Space Gallery we’d not be able to achieve our ambitions elsewhere across the site for much longer,” says Macdonald.

Edited November 9, 2015 by stuartp

[bentwaters81tfw]

Perhaps the 707 should go to VTTS?

[Geoff_B]

Pity they couldn't work out doing a new building at Woodford and bring in the 797, the Shack and maybe the Nimrod from Ringway. Seems daft to have a new Avro Museum and have aircraft built there elsewhere in Manchester on display

[XV107]

I'd have thought that the 707 would return to Cosford and with a bit of rearrangement could be slotted in next to its brother (after all, there's a P1A, a P1B and a Shorts SB5 at Cosford, so a pair of 707s would fit).

Shackleton is an obvious Cold War museum airframe, so Cosford would appear to be the right location for it (another hangar, please, National Lottery Fund...).

Doesn't Manchester still have the RAFM Belvedere? And, for that matter, another P1A (WG763)? If so, that needs to be saved for posterity.

[Max Headroom]

I went a couple of years ago and it had the air of a place waiting to shut down. Spaces where there there used to be aircraft and bizzarly a Harley Davison 'type' mobility trike with no caption as to context.

There is also the Trident nose that was accessible from the upper area. I would think that should go to Spotters Corner in Manchester Airport.

Trevor

[Truro Model Builder]

So the aircraft are not really part of their history...

What do they think went on at Woodford for day after day, year after year? Muppets.

[tonyot]

This has been on the cards for years as they have been very obviously running the place down, pity as it was a great little museum when the upstairs was full of really interesting displays. When the MOSI took over the rot began to set in then and when the funding for the `super museum' failed it was just a matter of time before the aircraft hall was jettisoned. The Tornado F.3 is stored elsewhere and was to have been brought on site to MOSI when it received the multi million pound upgrade which was cancelled,

The Tornado F.3 & Shackleton belong in the Cold War museum but isn`t it too late now? I know that they can swap smaller airframes about like the Jetstream and CH-53 but could they exchange any of the larger airframes,......say replace the Dakota with the Shackleton or would this cause too much disruption now? I do hope that the Shack can be displayed indoors in one of the hangars at Cosford,......it would look good alongside or facing the Lincoln.

Cheers

Tony

Edited November 11, 2015 by tonyot

[Jinxman]

Shackleton is an obvious Cold War museum airframe, so Cosford would appear to be the right location for it (another hangar, please, National Lottery Fund...).

..fully agree - another (big) hangar required at Cosford.

Does anyone know where Hendon fits in here as it looks more tired with every year and there was the possibility of it being relocated?

It's sad to see the writing on the wall for Manchester, but if they don't want to acknowledge the history and heritage of their own area someone else can instead.

[Lightningboy2000]

..fully agree - another (big) hangar required at Cosford.

Does anyone know where Hendon fits in here as it looks more tired with every year and there was the possibility of it being relocated?

It's sad to see the writing on the wall for Manchester, but if they don't want to acknowledge the history and heritage of their own area someone else can instead.

There are other hangars at Cosford, one of them that doesn't serve much purpose, but then I heard last weekend that the Hendon site is likely in the long term be squeezed out by the urban developers (land there being at a valuable premium) and move to a larger airfield site RAF Lynham was mentioned. It may well have been idle talk, but I can't see Hendon going on forever either.

Martin

[Max Headroom]

Part of the problem is that the site is only leased from the Council and the premium and/or rent on the renewal may be prohibitive. Councils have a legal duty to obtain 'best price' unless there are specifically prescribed extenuating circumstances. So to be fair to MOSI it may not be entirely their fault. However the place was definitely run down.

Trevor

[bentwaters81tfw]

I was discussing the RAFM with a guy from Cosford. Decisions have to made in the near future about Hendon. A move is on the cards, but where has not been determined. Cosford is the obvious location, with ample hangars if the Engineering school move elsewhere. It's not as though we don't have a surplus of airfields or hangars at present. I would imagine the sale of land at Hendon would finance the moves. The 'Heavies' there will break down for relatively easily transport. Move the Graham White building as well. The 'new' structures are steel and clad, so even they could be re-erected. I think the real problem is 'Management' rather than cash. Sort that lot out and there will be room for displaced airframes from MOSI as well. They could even charge admission. The solution is there, is the will?

[Max Headroom]

The problem with Hendon moving is aren't they erecting some sort of 'spike' there for visitors to walk in? As I understand it the Do-17 will be at the base.

Seems daft to build it hen move it a few years later.

Trevor

[bentwaters81tfw]

Be lucky if the Do-17 makes the trip. It's little more than tissue paper. Still, they have the data plate

I suspect the 'spike' is some PR gurus idea. Someone with no concept of aircraft, or what people actually want to see - aircraft flying, on the ramp or in a hangar.

[tonyot]

I would love to see the RAFM move to RAF Lyneham as it is one of the stations very close to my heart but aren`t the hangars quite dispersed around the site? I only remember the Air Movements Hangar next to the terminal building and the Air Engineering hangar across the pan with the Rubb hangar opposite,.....I dare say there are others which I never saw but I think that new buildings would have to be built.

I would think that the RAFM would like to remain within the Greater London area but apart from RAF Northolt which is full to the brim already, I cannot think of another site in this area?

Maybe Cosford could expand into the University Air Sqn hangar alongside and the little planes moved to a Rubb type hangar?

Cheers

Tony

[Max Headroom]

Logically Cosford is the best answer - fly in new exhibits, plenty of expansion space and more convenient as it's 'mid UK' (not everything revolves around London )

BUT the RAF will kick up a stink and will make do with the cramped and rather dingy 'historical' site.

Swearving this thread back to the OP, the Shack etc have got to be moved to suitable locations pronto.

Trevor

[JamesP]

It's a real shame to hear about MOSI closing its Air and Space wing. A few years ago there were proposals for a complete revamp of the buildings using lottery money but it didn't get funded. It did seem like the forgotten part of MOSI as I visited it 10 years apart and nothing had changed! It does have an excellent range of important aircraft types so I hope they can all find new homes.

[Truro Model Builder]

The problem with Hendon is that it too far out from central London for most tourists. In all the times I have been there it is rarely busy, and very often appears to be used as a drop in centre for local mums. It does indeed look very tired, and SWMBO -who has visited quite a few aircraft museums around the world over the years- compared it to a mortuary when she went there. I found it difficult to counter her observations, to be honest, and it often feels like you have tiptoe around the place and whisper in hushed tones. Some of the over-zealous stewarding does not help much either, frankly.

Cosford is certainly more central than London, and a move could be funded by selling the Hendon site for property development. I suspect the use of the hangar next to the existing Museum hangar at Cosford could be negotiated, and there is a lot of ground that is under utilised on the Museum site itself. The area behind the entry building -where the Neptune stands- could be built on, and there is the wooded area behind that which I think is Museum land -or could be purchased, maybe. And having a site that would allow for future expansion would be incredibly advantageous. Bear in mind as well that not all aircraft would have to move to a new public museum site. Would there be a need to have two Vulcans on display? How many Spitfires does one museum need?

RAFM could then concentrate on the one site and promote it as the premier aviation museum in the country, which I think it would be, and one of the finest in Europe and even worldwide.

[JamesP]

I spoke with a colleague who lives in the Castlefield area. They had a residents meeting with a MOSI representative and they said they were still exploring ways to keep the Air&Space wing going. I suspect some of it has to do with who pays for repairs to the building which the council owns but the museum has being patching up.

[bentwaters81tfw]

MOSI have had another setback, their direct rail link is about to be severed to make way for rail improvements. They fought against it but the 'City Fathers' came down in favour of the rail network, as it would be 'more beneficial'.
The rail community are also concerned about the future of MOSI. I suspect someone has their eye on some valuable land for a potentially lucrative deal in the not too far future.

[Simon Cornes]

I was at Cosford last week and notice a large empty space in the bottom hangar (the one with the Comet). On leaving and noticing this I thought 'Twin Pin'? But you could slide an Avro 707 in there very easily.

I was talking to a chap earlier and suggested that Cosford really needs a 'Super Hangar'. It was a crying shame a few years ago when the long knives came out and so many airframes got the chop - like the Victor which I think was a fairly unique airframe - and also the British Airways stuff.

As it stands they have a huge VC10, a pretty damn big C-130, a Neptune and a Nimrod, all of which will just rot away if left outdoors, and that would be a crying shame. As for Hendon, what about the 'London factor' isn't it compulsory for the RAF Museum to have a presence there? As far as the spike is concerned - artistic rubbish - sorry, just my opinion!!

Simon

[Aeronut]

MOSI have had another setback, their direct rail link is about to be severed to make way for rail improvements. They fought against it but the 'City Fathers' came down in favour of the rail network, as it would be 'more beneficial'.

The rail community are also concerned about the future of MOSI. I suspect someone has their eye on some valuable land for a potentially lucrative deal in the not too far future.

Its being reported in the Rail press that MOSI accepted £3M from Network Rail to drop their objection to loosing their rail conection.

During the 70s I took part in activities to get MOSI set up and it was a wonderful museum when it opened but I have to say I've had to watch it loose its way and go downhill in recent years.