F-35 Luftwaffe

[GiampieroSilvestri]

I just watched a program on German Television and German media reported in the last few days that there are big problems with the F-35 the Luftwaffe wants to order.

First a newsagency has a Pentagon report that confirmed that the F-35 still has more than 800 unsolved technical problems of which six are very serious to the extend

that the entire fleet worldwide normally should be grounded.The aircraft Germany wants to buy are likely to get much more expensive than anticipated,around ten milliard Euros.

Furthermore it is unlikely that the aircraft,as it is,will get the authorization to fly in German airspace by the Luftfahrtbundesamt and the infrastructure to operate the aircraft is not

existant and it will take at least until 2026 to install it.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero+Christian

 

[Procopius]

That was true(-ish) as of 2021, when it had 850 minor issues, and seven critical issues, several of which were expected to be resolved before the end of the year: https://www.defensenews.com/smr/hidden-troubles-f35/2021/07/16/the-number-of-major-f-35-flaws-is-shrinking-but-the-pentagon-is-keeping-details-of-the-problems-under-wraps/

 

 

[GiampieroSilvestri]

I saw the program at 21.00 o'clock this evening,not at the end of last year so the problems were apparently not solved.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

[Procopius]

4 minutes ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

I saw the program at 21.00 o'clock this evening,not at the end of last year so the problems were apparently not solved.

 

That's definitely one possible interpretation! It's wrong, though. 

 

As of 2022, the aircraft was down to four listed Category 1B Critical Deficiencies, one of which was assessed as corrected by reporting time: https://www.defensedaily.com/f-35-program-expects-to-close-two-category-1b-deficiencies-by-end-of-year/air-force/

[GiampieroSilvestri]

Ah,only four left!

I really do not like that aircraft but that is very reassuring for the pilots.

 

Giampiero

Edited December 8, 2022 by GiampieroSilvestri

[junglierating]

All new kit have outstanding SRs system requirements to sign off....its a modern world lots of them will be negligible but still need to be covered just in case.

Never used to happen years ago but then look how many aircraft fell out of the sky.

[EwenS]

Every month Lockheed Martin produce a “Fast Facts” info sheet about the F-35 Programme. OK it is their spin on progress with the aircraft, but it does provide an alternative view to the sometimes very negative focus that gets reported from a US Congress many of whom are not behind the project in the slightest because some other manufacturer who could perhaps benefit from another design is based in their state.

 

So as of Dec 2022:-

 

875+ aircraft delivered (first flight 2006, service entry 2015 - 8 crashes + 2 other “serious incidents” only half of which seem to be due to faults with the aircraft)

 

602,000 flight hours recorded (up from 500,000 in April 2022)

 

1,845 pilots trained belonging to 9 countries

 

And so it goes on. It is one of the most technically advanced aircraft ever built. With millions of lines of computer code. Of course there will be problems. But is it an unsafe aircraft for the pilots to fly? I’m not seeing that in the data at present.

 

https://www.f35.com/content/dam/lockheed-martin/aero/f35/documents/December 2022 Fast Facts_1.pdf

 

https://www.f35.com/f35/about/fast-facts.html

 

[11bravo]

On 12/8/2022 at 3:09 PM, GiampieroSilvestri said:

I just watched a program on German Television and German media reported in the last few days that there are big problems with the F-35 the Luftwaffe wants to order.

First a newsagency has a Pentagon report that confirmed that the F-35 still has more than 800 unsolved technical problems of which six are very serious to the extend

that the entire fleet worldwide normally should be grounded.The aircraft Germany wants to buy are likely to get much more expensive than anticipated,around ten milliard Euros.

Furthermore it is unlikely that the aircraft,as it is,will get the authorization to fly in German airspace by the Luftfahrtbundesamt and the infrastructure to operate the aircraft is not

existant and it will take at least until 2026 to install it.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero+Christian

 

You need to find another news source, however given that you seem to be against any American-built jet or helo, I think you only wish to find "news" that fits your agenda.  

[zigster]

Well, I don't know about the agenda against US produced F-35, yet there were some some feedback/reports from RAAF, which painted not a happy picture.

There was a talk, that all that deal was a big mistake. I don't know all the details, high cost of upgrading software in early delivered a/c, and so-on.

z

[Latinbear]

I have no technical knowledge whatsoever to add to this debate but when I attended the "Last of the Grim Reapers" photo event at Lakenheath in April one of the F-35A pilots I briefly talked to told me he was a former F-16 pilot and that while "the F-16 was a lot of fun, if he had to go to war he would rather do so in the F-35A."  He said that unprompted and while I can't imagine him slagging the aircraft off to somebody he doesn't know, he is presumably sufficiently happy with it to be prepared to risk his life in extreme circumstances.

[GiampieroSilvestri]

13 hours ago, 11bravo said:

You need to find another news source, however given that you seem to be against any American-built jet or helo, I think you only wish to find "news" that fits your agenda.  

I only post what I heard and read.Some links will follow in a couple of minutes.

 

https://www.merkur.de/politik/kritik-f35-kampfjets-bundeswehr-verteidigungsministerium-kauf-usa-deal-schweiz-christine-lambrecht-91970775.html

 

https://www.merkur.de/politik/f-35-us-jet-problem-fehler-schleudersitz-patrone-militaer-bundeswehr-luftwaffe-91699734.html

 

https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/bundeswehr-kampfjets-beschaffung-usa-103.html

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

Edited December 14, 2022 by GiampieroSilvestri

[Slater]

Looks like German F-35's are green-lighted:

 

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/1-german-budget-committee-approves-142834346.html

[Alan P]

13 hours ago, 11bravo said:

You need to find another news source, however given that you seem to be against any American-built jet or helo, I think you only wish to find "news" that fits your agenda.  

Needed saying, thanks 👍

[GiampieroSilvestri]

2 hours ago, Alan P said:

Needed saying, thanks 👍

ARD is the first public television programme of Germany like the BBC in Great Britain and the Süddeutsche Zeitung,Frankfurter Allgemeine,Die Welt etc.are comparable to the London Times and Daily Telegraph.If you have any complaints about the reports published by all of them send a mail to their Editorial Staffs.I am the wrong adress.

I am sure you can find their mail adresses:if not I can send them to you.

 

 

 

[Filler]

Imagine if there had been 24 hour news on TV, thousands of online news sources, social media and internet forums during the days of TSR2 and F-111 etc etc.

[Jochen Barett]

Imagine everybody knowing about the bribes payed and received during the F-104G procurement not just some time later ...

[Alan P]

51 minutes ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

ARD is the first public television programme of Germany like the BBC in Great Britain and the Süddeutsche Zeitung,Frankfurter Allgemeine,Die Welt etc.are comparable to the London Times and Daily Telegraph.If you have any complaints about the reports published by all of them send a mail to their Editorial Staffs

This is only half the story. You've posted a lot of one-sided things about procurement strategy, fraud and lack of capability regarding many different US weapons systems procured by European nations. Any counterpoints are simply ignored.

 

You are free to believe whatever you want to believe, and post whatever material you want in support of those beliefs. But, please try to understand this for what it is: politically motivated reporting in the context of  Germany's massive military budget expansion, which is deeply unpopular in some quarters. The fact it chimes with your own beliefs doesn't make right or true.

[GiampieroSilvestri]

As for one sided things about procurement strategy please take the time and search for Starfighter affair.This is a fact that does not allow counterpoints.It has nothing to do with my point of view!

Again just for your understanding:

Official news in more than serious German media that I posted for information.

 

OK?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2022 by GiampieroSilvestri

[Procopius]

49 minutes ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

As for one sided things about procurement strategy please take the time and search for Starfighter affair.

 

 

 

 

Are you aware the Starfighter affair -- more properly, the Lockheed Affair, since it involved multiple aircraft types -- occurred sixty years ago, before most of the people currently involved in the Luftwaffe procurement process were born?

[Mike]

Can we dial this down before someone gets all bent out of shape and says something they may regret please?  It's all a lot of spin, whichever side you look at, and it's a totally unnecessary spat, because like it or not, it's coming, so better get used to it.  History repeating itself where no-one likes the "new thing", but moans just as hard when it comes time for it to retire 20 years later.  It's about time the record was changed.

 

Text in red so it gets noticed as a Moderator comment.  No one needs to get upset about it.

[Mr T]

Without wishing to upset anyone and especially the moderators, from a historical perspective, major arms procurement deals in most countries generate a lot of heat. In some places, eg Switzerland, the process is protracted and highly politicised. In Germany (or least in the days of West Germany), major combat aircraft deals seem to especially difficult. Back in the late sixties and early seventies, Tornado procurement took so many twists and turns, eg over the radar and the engines, how many the Germans wanted. We went through it all again with the Eurofighter (the Germans don't call it the Typhoon for historical reasons), to the stage that they weren't going to buy any and buy Hornets instead. 

The F35 has had a long gestation period and is a large high profile programme. There are always going to be axes to be ground and always people with an agenda. With Germany, the French seem always to be whispering in German ears about European unity, ie buy Dassault. 

[tempestfan]

4 hours ago, Mr T said:

We went through it all again with the Eurofighter (the Germans don't call it the Typhoon for historical reasons), to the stage that they weren't going to buy any and buy Hornets instead. 

....

With Germany, the French seem always to be whispering in German ears about European unity, ie buy Dassault. 

Not sure if the Hornet ever was a serious consideration - agreed, our wonderful then-Minister of Defence insisted on more or less redeveloping Eurofighter from ground up to make it cheaper, which caused huge cost and massive delays. Not least because many of the capabilities stripped were essential and had to be added back over the tranches, IIRC. However, Typhoon IMHO is now a first-rate fighter(-bomber). With the end of Tornado's useful life in sight for some time, it would have made some sense to integrate B61 and certify Typhoon for the TacNuke mission, and I see no technical reasons why that should have been impossible. I think the economics of having a single multi role plane - albeit of rather different mod states - are somewhat self-evident. Instead, now a limited number of F-35s is bought, whose only raison d'aitre in the Luftwaffe is nuclear participation. And - as far as I've read - did not have to go through an RFP/tender process... F-35 may well be capable, but economically it's not a particularly sound proposition - again IMHO.

...

Which would be pointless, at least as long Rafale was concerned - that would be another "2nd airplane" with similar characteristics to Typhoon. 

[tempestfan]

On 12/14/2022 at 3:55 AM, 11bravo said:

You need to find another news source, however given that you seem to be against any American-built jet or helo, I think you only wish to find "news" that fits your agenda.  

I wonder what you said when the USAF selected the KC-45...

[Mike]

4 minutes ago, tempestfan said:

I wonder what you said when the USAF selected the KC-45...

My post in red above was designed to put a line under the baiting and arguing.  If you can't take the hint, you might need to go for a Christmas holiday.  Please take the less subtle version of the hint I'm issuing now.

[tempestfan]

Alright Sir!