Troy Smith Posted October 3, 2020 Share Posted October 3, 2020 As a child I was given a bound copy of some Aircraft In Profiles, volume 5 I think. (the dust jacket has long since gone) as I was model mad anyway, it was the second real aircraft books I owned, and was much looked at over the years. (the first was the 1962 Hawker Hurricane by FK Mason, which turned up in a box of books from the jumble and was pounced on by me...) As with anything new, certain images stayed with me, as it was all new, one was the Croatian "G-10" with stylised leaf fuselage cross, at the bottom... I'd not paid much more attention for years, though I have the Hobbycraft Axis 109's boxing with these decals... And then this turned up online "Bf 109 G-14/AS W.Nr. 782 104 (?) "Crni 4", flown by deserting pilot Vladimir Sandtner, I.Zrakoplovna Skupina. 2. Lovačko Jato, seen at Falconara after 16 April 1945" which was totally new too me, and pretty jaw dropping... note the B-25 in the background too. And I just realised that the Croat 'cross' is much further forward than the original German one, and centered on a filler point (oxygen?) The colour looks washes out so I'm wondering if this is actually a base colour of 82/75 this one, taken with a film or filter that has made the yellow appear dark, has also made the area round the cockpit really dark, so maybe it is green/grey? the other one of note, what really caught my is the tow truck, note the door art, and name, Cindy, though the dark patch outboard of the wing 'cross' is of note. there are some more pics here hope of interest, I'd seen a few other B/W pics a bit more searching reminded me of this one showing the port side artwork, note the goats head below the cockpit, and the C3 in the filler triangle. Somewhere I have seen a more through analysis of this plane, but can't remember where, but I've not seen the colour pic. a few more here https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109G/Kroat-JG.html I'll add a @dragonlanceHR as Vedran may know more on this one. Anyone know if an accurate set of decals has been done? The Hobbycraft ones lack the goats head http://modelingmadness.com/scott/axis/luft/me/109/hc109g10preview.htm Don't remember it being discussed here before, so hopefully of interest. cheers T 12 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Russell Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 Built 20-odd years ago using that Profile picture as a reference. Croatian decals from Aviation Usk (Correction - Blue Rider) and other decals from spares box. 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonlanceHR Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 There was much gnashing of teeth last month when that colour pic retired all those cherished late war brown/green camo theories. Goat's head emblem is still debated but IMO it's the variation of the one seen on a Fiat G.50 This newly released photo will hopefully result in a new set of decals, i know that some are in the works. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 (edited) The over paintings are very interesting and never shown on schemes, especially from left side and from top! Some almost 50 years ago, during my school days I converted Airfix G-6 into this Croatian G-10, using Esci decals, but there was no goat head there. From years I do not have this model with me .I should have somewhere photo of this model. Maybe I should dig for it. Sometimes I am thinking on doing this scheme again, with modern kit of G-10. @Troy Smith, thank you for sharing! Regards J-W Edited October 4, 2020 by JWM 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11bravo Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 So for the record - is this a G-14A/S as referenced in the OP or a G-10? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonlanceHR Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 "Black 4" was a G14A/S. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 The difference is in ammunition "bulges" between engine and canopy - the G-10 has the same as G-6 (but high tail) whereas G-14 has the same like "K", much larger. Those are main differences, AFAIR... Regards J-W 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 JWM: this doesn't apply to DB605AS engine variants, all of which have the large (refined) bulges (G-6, G-14 or even some G-10?) The G-10 however has the DB605D engine. The key difference is the presence or absence of small bulges in the 5 o'clock/7 o'clock positions on the cowling, near the spinner. However, this is simplifying as there were some late cowlings that were slightly larger and lacked these bulges, there were several different cowling/bulge shapes on the G-10, and I've seen it said that the G-14 had some difference in the wing design - presumably visible as a panel difference. Late war 109s are a minefield. The high tail, like the Erla canopy, fat tyres and large fairing over the wheel wells, cannot be used to distinguish between G-6s and G-14s. The G-14 is just a late G-6 with the DB605AM engine rather than the DB605A. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denford Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 Some G-6's had a 'high tail', but still the 'old style' hood. An (unsurprisingly) well documented example landed in error at Manston having flown a reciprocal compass course. It was also one of the first 'encountered' using the 'Defence of the Reich' band; in this case red. (This then begs the question, why the band if it was based in Western France?) I think there is confusion here: the G-14 preceded the G-10. It (the G-14) still had the 'ammunition bulges' that the G-10 never had. Beaman is unclear on the differences between G-6 and the 'straight' G-14 (as opposed to the G-14AS). If captioned photos are correctly identified, late model G-6 could have either high tail and\or new style hood (see above). The G-14 likewise (again if correctly captioned) could, though rarely did, have a low tail and\or old style canopy. All very confusing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torqueofthedevil Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 1 hour ago, Denford said: Some G-6's had a 'high tail', but still the 'old style' hood. An (unsurprisingly) well documented example landed in error at Manston having flown a reciprocal compass course. It was also one of the first 'encountered' using the 'Defence of the Reich' band; in this case red. (This then begs the question, why the band if it was based in Western France?) Presumably it was one of the numerous fighters redeployed from the Reich to France in the days and weeks following Overlord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehnz Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 For 1/72 modellers, the 1/72 Hobby Boss bf 109G-10 contains these exact markings. Not sure how good the decals are, but those I've used performed ok. 1/48 decals as @Ed Russell most likely used can still be found (just) here. http://www.jaysmodelkits.com/jaysmk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=85_87&products_id=698 Steve. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Russell Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 Heresy @stevehnz - thanks for the compliment but that is a 1/72 model. The insignia decals are from an AvUsk sheet (Correction - Blue Rider sheet) intended for something else and the rest from the spare decals box. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehnz Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 Oops, sorry Ed, you said Av Usk but I confused myself looking on John Stones website. He does have some Av Usk decals but none like that exactly, then I saw the Ventura ones & got confuzzled. Steve. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Russell Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 29 minutes ago, stevehnz said: I confused myself Don't worry - I am too. My excuse is it's quite a while ago - they are actually Blue Rider Decals and the sheet includes a different Bf109G-10. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehnz Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 I give up. Steve. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastterry Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 This aircraft is a standard G-10 with standard wheels. Note the bulge under the cowl which is easy to see in the colour photo. (not so clear in the B/W photo because the yellow is dark due to type of film used) TRF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafetyDad Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 @Troy Smith Please PM me about decals - I've tried to message you but I'm getting a 'can't receive messages' response?? SD 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blimpyboy Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 On 10/4/2020 at 10:59 AM, Troy Smith said: Anyone know if an accurate set of decals has been done? The Hobbycraft ones lack the goats head Kora make a few sheets, in 1/72, 1/48 and 1/32, some of which have the goat's head. Kora 48.110 and Kora 48.111 There's also L&M decals: https://www.ebay.com/itm/L-M-decals-W-72-1-48-Croatian-Bf-109-BONUS/233577599645?hash=item36624f529d:g:DuoAAOSwPile~F2u 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonlanceHR Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 (edited) Please note that "black 4" has a non-standard oversize shield on the tail, and that "black 10" (which was a straight G-14 btw.) had a small shield on the tail stabilizer, similar to "black 2105" illustrated above. This is one if the best renditions of "black 10" built by a Croatian modeller Mtech in 1/48 scale: Edited October 5, 2020 by dragonlanceHR 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denford Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 A lovely build and one I certainly couldn't match. However it lacks the faint traces of overwing crosses visible in some of the earlier postings. I'd include them if I knew how! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWM Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 6 hours ago, Denford said: A lovely build and one I certainly couldn't match. However it lacks the faint traces of overwing crosses visible in some of the earlier postings. I'd include them if I knew how! What I can suggest is to apply normal decal (crosses) and then cover it with very fine (thus semi transparent) layer of colors of camo. Then apply Croatian insignia on it J-W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vonbraun Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 Here is the artist rendition from the old Profile Publication. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted October 5, 2020 Author Share Posted October 5, 2020 11 hours ago, SafetyDad said: @Troy Smith Please PM me about decals - I've tried to message you but I'm getting a 'can't receive messages' response? will do. My message box ix full. I'll clear some out. 6 hours ago, Denford said: A lovely build and one I certainly couldn't match. However it lacks the faint traces of overwing crosses visible in some of the earlier postings. I'd include them if I knew how! The pics above are Black 4. The model posted is Black 10 which is a standard G-14, this is the only pic I know, but there may well be more @dragonlanceHR , as a Croatian modeller, would likely know more about photos of this, and other Croat 109 shown on the sheets above. I started the thread as i ran across the colour pic of Black 4, which is a plane I have been aware of for, erm, maybe 45 years, and, well, 'In Real Life' except for when I go to the IPMS (on hold) so it was a 'ooh, that's neat' and I'd not seen it discussed here. Hmm, 11 hours ago, fastterry said: This aircraft is a standard G-10 with standard wheels. Note the bulge under the cowl which is easy to see in the colour photo. maybe. Or it's a G-14AS, which has a G-10 type lower cowling. The fact there is a quoted serial is more important, that external appearance. Older publications would say it was a G-10, but they also miss out the variations in cowlings depending on manufacture and such like. I say this as I bought John Beaman's Last of the Eagles when I was 16, and read the methodology section enough then that it was pretty much imprinted...(and note when areas queried in that now have explanations, but it was written in 1976, and was the first real attempt to sort what these planes looked like and how they were painted, and it's still worth a read for that alone) I also had the Monogram Bf 109 G part 2 and Bf109K books, scans of which are here BTW https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Modeling-References/Monogram-Close-up which were pretty much state of the art at the time. all of which were mail order expensive specialist items, let alone for a schoolboy circa 1982, I mention this as so much more information has become available, but in dribs and drabs over the years, though I still get a thrill seeing new K photos (the linked Monogram had pretty much every known K photo at the time) Though Scale Models magazine did publish a lot of very useful information on colours back then as well. The increase in available information, especially photos, which is why this thread started, as new ones do keep coming up, has made the situation more ordered, for example, camouflage and markings of factories and batches was usually quite consistent, so a pretty good idea of what factory/batch an airframe is can be determined from a photo of some random airframe., if you have access to some very specialist books, or when the 109 nuts here come out the woodwork. which leads to this 22 hours ago, Denford said: Beaman is unclear on the differences between G-6 and the 'straight' G-14 as I understand it the G-14 was a G-6 which incorporated a load of airframe changes, many internal, think the comparison and confusion of the Spitfire IX and XVI, and like that example, to actually identify an airframe, you need the serial. From discussion here the most up to date and definitive book is book French one by Mermet this one http://www.caraktere.com/messerschmitt-bf-109-en.htm It's a 'want' but I don't often have 50 euro spare for a treat like this, but the 109 buffs on here say it's 'the one' for sorting out the airframes. at this point I'll put in a @FalkeEins and @tank152 @SafetyDad as they all fall into that category.. Some of the best books on camo and markings are the JaPo books, which of course are all out of print and tend to command eye watering prices when they do turn up... 13 minutes ago, Vonbraun said: Here is the artist rendition from the old Profile Publication. the entire 1966 profile is here https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Modeling-References/Aircraft-Profiles/Germany/World-War-Two/Messerschmitt-BF109G while the written text is OK, the profiles and photos captions vary from accurate to deeply wrong. At the time this was published there was confusions about what a G-10 or K-4 looked like, as a quick look at the photos and caption will reveal, the big one was the lack of understanding what the refined cowling was, and what it looked like, even though there are photos of this in the profile... unravelling what these variants were, and what the looked like, took many years, and is still a work in progress.. Same is true of the camouflage and markings, the profile is not long after the first series of book on Luftwaffe Camouflage and Markings by Karl Ries (a German) came out in the early 60's...which caused much confusion as they basically said all Luftwaffe fighter were pale blue underneath with dark green and black green disruptive pattern uppers, and some grey mottle on the sides. ( I ended up inheriting the books from a friends dad) For those curious in a history of the development of this, just read the linked profile, and then the Monogram books. I'm writing this as, it is confusing, and there are layers of historical confusion to deal with as well. Lots of fun if you had a misspent youth obsessing over these things, a blinkin' throbbing nightmare headache if you innocently fancy building a late war 109 and try to find out a little more detail for your build... and then fal down the rabbit hole and through the looking glass and end up peering at photos of wrecks trying to see if you can determine if it's a G-10 or a K-4, what rudder/wheel bumps/cowling/factory etc etc etc this was..... You have been warned..... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, JWM said: What I can suggest is to apply normal decal (crosses) and then cover it with very fine (thus semi transparent) layer of colors of camo. Then apply Croatian insignia on it J-W I think one could even get away with applying the normal late German cross decals, the Croatian wing insignia and some light pastel weathering. They don't appear to be significantly overpainted as just weathered. Not saying your method isn't good but just pointing out for those who perhaps don't feel or want to try overspraying or even those who are brush painters , the pastels method is another option. It's a very attractive scheme and I'd be tempted to do it for a Gustav project. Edited October 5, 2020 by Smithy Spelling 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossm Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 On 10/4/2020 at 9:51 AM, dragonlanceHR said: There was much gnashing of teeth last month when that colour pic retired all those cherished late war brown/green camo theories. Goat's head emblem is still debated but IMO it's the variation of the one seen on a Fiat G.50 This newly released photo will hopefully result in a new set of decals, i know that some are in the works. I'll join in the gnashing of teeth, I built it from a mix of Heller bits with the Ventura decals many years ago and finished it in late war Xtracolours - I think they might have dried by now but it felt tacky for years 😀 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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