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As a result of the close-down of the UK by the British Government last night, we have made all the Buy/Sell areas read-only until we open back up again, so please have a look at the announcement linked here.

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Sidders

1/48 - Boeing B-17G by HK Models - Release Oct 19

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I'm no economist and I don't run a model company, so I go by what I see. And I see new kits of new subjects being released. Yes, they are mostly limited run companies and have less to lose than a mainstream company but they run a risk as well. They could just be releasing what they want to see in scale but I doubt they don't seek out their customer bases and desires.

 

I don't expect the rest of the existence of the modeling hobby to just be new pops of safe subjects. I am glad to see a new B-17G, as I've said, but is something different that unlikely?

 

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You can see the newer companies producing new subjects: so do I, but at a lower rate than 15 or so years ago.  Look at the rate of exotic kits from MPM, Special Hobby, Azur..  then and now.  The key matter here is that the expected market size matches the duration of the tooling and hence number produced.  I can see that the move of the smaller companies to harder tooling has meant fewer and less "different" subjects from these companies.  Hard tooling = greater production runs but at greater expense.  Who will buy?  Get the right subject, yes, but that means a popular one.  Get a few successes under your belt and maybe you can try something riskier - but not often.  Our best hope for more interesting subjects is large sales of the standards.  Yes, that means more Spitfires, 109s and Mustangs.

 

Edited by Graham Boak

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I did buy the new Tamiya Spitfire and look forward to the fillet-less Eduard P-51. I'll gladly do my part and buy models if it might give them the chance of branching out and taking risks.

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5 hours ago, bentwaters81tfw said:

Well (for me at least), the very hard to conceal joints at the wing and tailplane roots and the raised surface detail.....nice models, admittedly,

but I'll take a new HK kit over the old Monogram one (which I built back in the late 1970s and certainly don't remember fondly) any day. However, other people's mileage may vary, as they say - each to their own.

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4 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

No problem. It's just a fair amount of care and work to get a well-finished B-17G out of the Monogram kit. I have built one in the past... A new kit will be much easier overall, even if it needs a contour adjusted on the nose and a couple of panel lines rescribed. I just think some people go out of their way to find insurmountable problems with new kits whilst simultaneously overlooking far bigger tasks required to get a good turnout using old kits.

Couldn't agree more, I completely fail to understand the attraction for many of the old Monogram stuff from the 1970s and 1980s. It was good for its time (if you ignored the fit, which was often nothing short of appalling) but falls well short of current standards.....

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2 minutes ago, hopkp said:

Well (for me at least), the very hard to conceal joints at the wing and tailplane roots and the raised surface detail.....nice models, admittedly,

but I'll take a new HK kit over the old Monogram one (which I built back in the late 1970s and certainly don't remember fondly) any day. However, other people's mileage may vary, as they say - each to their own.

Thank you. These were initially built so I could remove the wings for storage, hence no filler on the roots. Eventually they were glued for strength.

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Just a quick thought. Will the HK kit have staggered waist gunner's positions? Going by the serial range of the marking options, I'm thinking it might. Hope so, as that will be one less thing to address.

 

Steve

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7 minutes ago, bentwaters81tfw said:

Thank you. These were initially built so I could remove the wings for storage, hence no filler on the roots. Eventually they were glued for strength.

Mine initially had detachable wings too, but like you I eventually had to glue them and hence could also never get rid of the wing joints. From memory, the fit of the windscreen was also a bit of a nightmare.....

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4 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

No problem. It's just a fair amount of care and work to get a well-finished B-17G out of the Monogram kit. I have built one in the past... A new kit will be much easier overall, even if it needs a contour adjusted on the nose and a couple of panel lines rescribed. I just think some people go out of their way to find insurmountable problems with new kits whilst simultaneously overlooking far bigger tasks required to get a good turnout using old kits.

 

The manufacturer. The number of B-17Gs built, how iconic they are to the European Theatre of Operations and the vast choice of markings compared to how obscure the B-17C and D were means that a model company will sell Gs at a rate of 10 to 1 or more than Cs or Ds. That's why P-51Ds sell really well, yet P-51As not so much.

 

How many 1/72 B-17Gs have you seen built on forums? I've seen loads. I don't recall seeing many (if any?) of Academy's B-17C/D kit built online. At the price point this new kit will likely be, some people will find the money to buy a new-tooled modern kit of the B-17G. I really can't imagine many people forking out that sum of money for a C or a D model because it's the kind of aircraft that most will ultimately find themselves happy to do without.

 

Actually running a model business I am now fully onboard with 2 observations from others in the industry that I'd heard numerous times beforehand:

1) That whenever a new product is announced, someone will immediately ask you for something else

2) That the absolute last people that any model company should listen to when it comes to making commercial decisions is modellers or you'll be bankrupt in short order

Save for the bit about running a model business (I don't) that is the post I would have written if only I could write as well. It also helps to articulate some of the despair I regularly feel at people's responses to new kits around shape, accuracy and what not. Take a look at the original MPC Space 1999 Eagle Transporter and compare it to the screen model. 'That' is what an inaccurate model looks like. Not a few details here or there or a curve that is a little too flat - its enough of a different shape with proportions all over the shop that I could tell even as a five year old. The new B-17 kit announced above looks amazing. It looks exactly like a B-17 and has amazing details. I want two, even though I've no idea where to put them. The Mig-23 announced by Eduard recently (Trumpeter plastic) looks just like a Mig-23. Nose and all. The AMK Tomcat complete with rear looks like a Tomcat and its 'better' than the Monogram Tomcat I had as a kid. None of them are so misshapen that they look like an A380. They look like the subject they claim to be. If I don't like the look of a subject then I just don't buy it. Simple as that. If I see something 'glaringly' amiss I may call it out - once! And that's it. My tuppence spent. Because why would I want to go on, and on, and on? Because the manufacturer's will look at my post and think 'Oh, what that guy said! Quick, lets stop production and re-engineer it'? No! So what's the point?

 

The people developing these new model kits are amazing engineers. The MPC Eagle I mentioned above was so much the wrong shape that I designed and engineered my own 1/72 scale model in CAD with the parts created through 3D printing, bespoke PE and turned aluminium. It has complete interiors including walkways, along with removable command module and articulated working landing gear. When Round 2 announced their development of a whole new tool Eagle Transporter in 1/48 did I get one the phone and tell Jamie Hood "here, what you really need to do is take some advice from me"? No. I sat back and delighted in the fact that they were creating a whole new IM kit of a cherished subject. And when they announced 'they' were making a new 1/72 kit I was even more delighted. So much so that I've retired my own bespoke model and ordered '10' (yes 10) of theirs. Because they're the professionals and they turn out fantastic stuff. And I'm just a guy sat on a couch!

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15 minutes ago, Nocoolname said:

So much so that I've retired my own bespoke model and ordered '10' (yes 10) of theirs. Because they're the professionals and they turn out fantastic stuff. And I'm just a guy sat on a couch!

Not just a guy sat on the couch, but someone who got off the couch and scratch built his own Eagle because the old MPC kit was so bad. That's pretty cool in my books. Any photos?

 

Must admit, at 5 or 6 years old, I didn't catch the shape of the MPC Eagle. My uncle presented me with a built Airfix Eagle at that age and I thought it was the coolest thing on earth (or the moon for that matter). I was happy because it looked cool, was bigger than my Dinky Eagle, and more importantly, wasn't metallic green! (I did eventually swap the pod with the freighter heaving a six year old sigh of relief)

 

As far as kit accuracy is concerned, I'm with you there. Yes, I did mention the problem with the cross section of the 1/32 kit, but for me, it did affect the look of the model. Most of the time I'm more of a "If it looks like a duck.......)

 

Edit: 10 Eagles! Cool. A moonbase diorama perhaps? I must get myself a Round 2 Eagle.

 

Steve

Edited by fightersweep

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B-17C and early (after) war versions are in biggest scale (as 1/48 or 1/32) economic suiccide. When fall Iron Curtain and in Czechoslovakia coming American and British Movies, one of i as kid seen was a Memphis Belle - a hollywood movie from early ´90, not famous document A tale of Flying Fortress from 1943 - . Many years back, when i saw this movie first time i read a memories of their commander Cpt. Morgan - and i have it simple - OD/NG B-17F - and NMF B-17G. Shiny Flying Fortress, with typical "chin" turret and best with nude pin up girl in life size nose art is for me a symbol (with shiny Mustang and T-bolt) of USAAF in ETO, when devastated nazis Germany... It is a for me an American symbol - a very independent, very ostentatious, very sexy and very shine and elegant. Yup, in real was aircraft dirty, with oil leaks, with patches and no chrome-shining as to-day warbirds. But Pin ups, comics heroes, slogans, pop culture links (as song names etc...) - make for me US WW II aircrafts still very atractive (despite a "blood work" with metalics paints...). Early B-17 was too booooring, with limited operation usage in PTO, without nose arts, mission markers, kills and typical turrets. Yup, early Fortress is very elegant aircraft, very aerodynamics - but it is suitable for small scale, when you completed a whole range of B-17, because is still small. But i was very sceptic for high sales of this versions in quarter scale, or 1/32 ! 1/32 is very expensive kit, i hope in lowest price in quarter scale, but still around 100€/100USD and GBP.  And it is a little huge "piece of furniture...." Look - we wait for 45 (UPPPS) years of new tool B-17 in quarter scale. Every years we can buy a brand new Bf 109, FW-190, Spits and Mustangs, maybe thank you for ICM or Airfix a medium bombers, especially with German origin as Dornier, Junkers or Heinkel series.... But "Viermotorige" wasn´t attractive for model companies in quarter scale. Because are big, many modelers bought one box and one version (i was very sceptic a lot of people bought B-17G and B-17F, probably bought one box...). Maybe in 1/72 modellers make one B-17, one Liberator etc.... and this is all. Spits, Mustang or Messer you can sold with big quantity. Mr. Šulc from Eduard write they sold for one month 6700 Mustangs....  And this is for first release... This is a milking cow - and for this reason model companies ignored a Heavy bombers.... Because probably they not sale many kits.... Very optimistic - two for few modelers, one for many... and none for "most many". (Too huge, too expensive, too innacurate - many many reasons....) And i thing a wifes, girlfriends of moms don´t like a huge boxes with giant bombers (and when you can build it, they probably prefer big and shine aircraft - but only one !) And - don´t forget what if are released a quarter scale Liberator, Lancaster or Super Fortress ? We need a space for it !     

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Oh, believe me, I'm jazzed about a new-tool B-17! I will be getting one. But there is nothing wrong with showing appreciation and desire for more kits to spend my money on. I'm talking to you, Academy! you already have a /72 B/C/D, now give me my Y!!:D

 

I did start building a 1/72 B-17B in a past GB, but I think I burned myself out building an interior that will hardly be seen... Have to get back to that one.🤔

And at the most recent model show I was at I bought a 1/72 Rare Plane vacform model of the YB. Have plans of eventually kitbashing part of that with another B-17B kit. But if someone came out with one I'd buy it in a second!

Edited by Thom216

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On 9/23/2019 at 1:30 PM, pacificmustang said:

This bodes well for a 48 scale Lanc. from them too.  In fact, I'm so sure I'm flogging my Tamiya ones

 

Bruce

You'd have never have built them anyway :D 

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Exciting news indeed for 1/48 fans such as me :)

Is this the same mark of B-17 that Airfix did "Bit O Lace in"? If so that's what I'd like to do for nostalgia purposes ... built that kits as a kid, and assuming such decals get produced in 1/48, yes I'm going to buying this kit for sure regardless of the decals provided and fully realise it will be north of £100 ... easily, if not, all the better, but I imagine it would.

Other thing is, does anyone else not think that an October 19 release is a bit ambitious? October is only 1 week away and ends in around 5 weeks, all we have seen so far and out of the blue is box art and CAD drawings, normally for a release to be at this stage we see far more and almost production shots ... we'll see I suppose and I don't mind waiting if release date slips, hope the front of cockpit nose section is sorted this time compared to its 1/32 big brother .. hope too a similar high quality Lancaster, possibly Halifax and Stirling get released in 1/48 too ... HK could be on to a winner if they do.

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5 minutes ago, Work In Progress said:

Not without modification

Extensive modifications? no worrys if so, would be nice to do "Bit O Lace" again, but am sure there will be lots of options becoming available in 1/48 following the release of the kit.

 

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49 minutes ago, One 48 said:

Extensive modifications? no worrys if so, would be nice to do "Bit O Lace" again, but am sure there will be lots of options becoming available in 1/48 following the release of the kit.

 

The HK kit will give you everything you need for Bit O Lace other than the Cheyenne tail turret - there is one available for the Monogram kit from Resin2Detail that may well fit the HK offering.

20 hours ago, fightersweep said:

Just a quick thought. Will the HK kit have staggered waist gunner's positions? Going by the serial range of the marking options, I'm thinking it might. Hope so, as that will be one less thing to address.

 

Steve

Not with this release - it's the earlier 3 pane non-staggered waist windows, just like the Monogram kit.

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36 minutes ago, tomprobert said:

Not with this release - it's the earlier 3 pane non-staggered waist windows, just like the Monogram kit.

 

Thanks Tom! I was hoping for the staggered waist guns, but nothing a bit of plastic surgery won't cure. I know Resin2Detail did a conversion for the Monogram kit, but I don't think it's been on the website for some time. No worries though, as this will be close enough to a 35 Block Douglas built Fort for me...I can do the necessary mods  myself. (I'm guessing the wing tip tank vents will be missing too then?)

 

Steve

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47 minutes ago, vppelt68 said:

In the cad- illustration there is a single type wingtip tank vent.

Ah! Thanks! I hadn't spotted that, I'll need to convert to the double vents then.

 

Steve

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So, did some real B-17 staggered/opposite waist gun positions in real life have it like this. With waist gun positions exactly behind each other ... they must have been bumbling into each other all the time that way?
 

 

 

 

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Just now, One 48 said:

So, did some real B-17 staggered/opposite waist gun positions in real life have it like this. With waist gun positions exactly behind each other ... they must have been bumbling into each other all the time that way?

Yep, which is why they made them staggered, but the E and F, and a lot G models had them in line.   

Not sure when the switch was made,  and as B-17's were built in 3 factories, it won't be all in the same production block.

 

Q- is there an online source listing b-17 production blocks and airframe changes?

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You need to check by tail number. This will give you block numbers and mods. Not all late models had Tokyo tanks and/or vents. Google it and there are sites that will give you the info.

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On 9/23/2019 at 2:24 PM, hopkp said:

Couldn't agree more, I completely fail to understand the attraction for many of the old Monogram stuff from the 1970s and 1980s. It was good for its time (if you ignored the fit, which was often nothing short of appalling) but falls well short of current standards.....

     As a card carrying member of the Monogram Mafia i will take a lot of those kits, over some of the so called modern super-kits any day. They're still quite accurate in shape, the cockpits in some of them are quite well detailed for the era they were made. But the real attraction is simply cost, ease of build, and the ability to scratch build or add detail for a lot lower cost. To me someone that has built over 100 Monogram kits. If you don't want them just means its more for me. 😉

 

Dennis

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