MESSERSCHMITT Bf-109 G Version Red Gear

[dov]

The red gear was for GM or MW boost? Was the red gear a standard for this issue or just a maybe ?

Thank you 

Happy modelling 

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello dov

Are you talking about red undercarriage legs and wheel hubs? I believe these indicated 100-octane fuel engine. Cheers

Jure

[SafetyDad]

This was discussed quite recently

 

@dov you were a contributor to this thread!

 

It starts exploring differing shades of grey and green, then moves on to red. Worth a read. I was impressed with @Kari Lumppio's suggestion that red gear legs may be linked to red-dyed Analine fuel. 

 

HTH

 

SD

[dov]

The red fuel was C3?

Happy modelling 

[brewerjerry]

Hi

     maybe of interest

   

     a friend of mine many years ago recovered parts of a fw-190A crashed UK in may 1943 

   it had red painted main gear 

      cheers

         jerry 

[dov]

Now: After re-reading the old post and all other information lined up:

C3 is green 100 octan

B4 is blue with 87 (4) octan

B4 with red dyed anilin has more octan as B4 natural and is finaly a red fluid.

GM-1 & MW50 needs C3 fuel.

Whatever it is, on pics with 109 with red legs we should check the fuel stencil and/or the GM-1 / MW50 stencil.

I do not know.

A silly idea is, because of lack of paint they used unpainted legs  just primed with minium. This is a red anti-corossion paint.

The old post never answered the question. Just ideas and guessing was dropped.

So far.

Happy modelling 

[SafetyDad]

5 minutes ago, dov said:

Now: After re-reading the old post and all other information lined up:

C3 is green 100 octan

B4 is blue with 87 (4) octan

B4 with red dyed anilin has more octan as B4 natural and is finaly a red fluid.

GM-1 & MW50 needs C3 fuel.

Whatever it is, on pics with 109 with red legs we should check the fuel stencil and/or the GM-1 / MW50 stencil.

I do not know.

A silly idea is, because of lack of paint they used unpainted legs  just primed with minium. This is a red anti-corossion paint.

The old post never answered the question. Just ideas and guessing was dropped.

So far.

Happy modelling 

 

I thought the red primer (Minium?) was intended solely for wood parts?

 

SD

[dov]

No, @SafetyDad, Minium was a steel primer. Used for all purposes of steel. In AFV as well aviation. 

Therefore my conclusion about the possibility of beeing the reason for red legs. Just an asuumption.

Happy modelling 

[Werdna]

2 hours ago, dov said:

No, @SafetyDad, Minium was a steel primer. Used for all purposes of steel. In AFV as well aviation. 

Therefore my conclusion about the possibility of beeing the reason for red legs. Just an asuumption.

Happy modelling 

 

All I would say is that its purpose as a primer would not necessarily preclude its use as a fuel marking/identifier.  In other words, the red colour may indeed be red oxide primer, but it doesn't follow that it was only used because the paint shop had run out of RLM 02 (or 66).

 

Hope that makes sense...

[Troy Smith]

4 hours ago, dov said:

A silly idea is, because of lack of paint they used unpainted legs  just primed with minium. This is a red anti-corossion paint.

For very late war, maybe.

 

AFAIK, the red legs are seen summer/autumn 44.  And are seen on AS engine types, which were new, and this was for quick recognition.

 

one of the few that is absolutely confirmed as red

 

"This is one of the more famous color 109 photos; this shows a lineup of G-6/AS aircraft of II./JG27 at Fels am Wagram in August 1944.  According to the Prien/Rodeike 109F-G-K book, the nearest aircraft is W.Nr. 412807 "gelbe 2", shot down near St. Pölten on 23 August 1944 with the pilot Uffz. Zimmerman being killed.  "Weiße 5" behind it may be W.Nr. 412918, shot down near Holzminden on 16 August with the wounded pilot Uffz. Salinger escaping by parachute.

Worthy of note are the yellow underwing tips, the RLM25 Grün RVT bands immediately aft of the Balkankreuz, and the Spiralschnauze on "gelbe 2" but not on "weiße 5".  Also, all aircraft carry a relatively standard 74/75/76 scheme.  All visible aircraft carry the R3 droptank mod, and "gelbe 2" has the fuselage-mounted FuG 16zy Morane mast (look carefully...it appears to be striped, but that may be an illusion)."

 

" Whoops...

No word on what caused this, but my personal guess is bomb damage- note the prop blades are unbent, so the engine was not turning when this calamity occurred, and it didn't hit nose first because the spinner, though well-dented, is not flattened.  Plus, there was no fire (strange in any event, given that the belly tank is still present!)

So, here's the exciting part...note the wheelwells, 76 throughout (even the aft wall liner).  Note also that 76 is used in the flap well (see the inside of the port upper "gator" flap).  That's not all, of course.

The shades of 76 and 04 are notably lighter than that commonly used in scale modeling; these also dovetail nicely with some fabric samples I have from a JG5 Fw190 aileron showing traces of the brush-painted yellow wingtip markings as well as the pale, almost white variety of 76.   The yellow here appears to be brush-painted as well; note the demarcation line.  And of course, we note the red legs and wheels, indicating this is (or was...) likely a G-6/AS aircraft.

The spine shows an octane triangle for the aft primer tank, and the RLM25 Grün band shows up well here.

And take a look at the drop tank style...not the common "ribbed" 300 liter tank, but the later two-piece stamped variety.

All in all, an utterly fascinating photograph!"

 

captions from the 109 Lair, so I presume by Lynn Ritger, whose wrote the SAM datafiles on the Bf109, and knows his stuff.

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/index1024.htm

 

The other I recall was one I've not seen online for ages, and was a JG300 plane being pulled by an Ox, which had been taken with film/filter that caused the red RD band to appear white,  as did the UC legs.

I recall it from years ago, as part of a discussion on the Jg300.de site and how the site owner Burkhardt Otto was frequently wrong in photo captions...  Maybe it got taken down as it was fairly rude about him?  Anyway, I'm not turning up the image, but it's pretty distinctive if anyone can recall it, white band, white UC legs.

The discussion may well have been on a forum google can't access.

I'll @FalkeEins  as he may recall the image, also @G.R.Morrison @David E. Brown  @SafetyDad  does this sound familiar?   

 

Right... after various search combinations... This one "bf 109 with oxen"  found this, which is what I was thinking of...

captioned on Rods Warbirds as 

"Me109-G14/AS/R3 III.9.JG300 ex-I.1.JG3 White1 WrkN165693 with Tall T3-Rudder & Fo987 Deep Oil Cooler & White Fuselage Band & Team of Oxen Tows Aircraft to Its Dispersal At Juterbog AirBase, Germany September, 1944"

 

Note, standard wheel hub colour was black.   so red hub, number and band.  

 

Anyway, i think the use of red legs/hubs was reasonably short lived,  as the need for differing fuels became common and crews would know to check?

 

HTH

[SafetyDad]

10 hours ago, dov said:

No, @SafetyDad, Minium was a steel primer. Used for all purposes of steel. In AFV as well aviation. 

Therefore my conclusion about the possibility of beeing the reason for red legs. Just an asuumption.

Happy modelling 

 

Is this the same? 

 

 

Source: 

 

 

As here

 

 

So, some metal components painted in red primer, but not those exposed to external viewing?

 

HTH

 

SD

[dov]

@SafetyDad, the shine of color is the same! Chemical analyses I do not know. This paint minium is used until today also in general engineering! I used it by myself thousands of times!

@Troy Smith,thank you for the photos.  The landing ground Deutsch Wagram is very close to my home anyway.

Well, so I assume we can only recall the red UC only on indiviual a/c only for sure!

The paint, you refer on, tells that paint was on low stock and maybe highly dilluted to get enough for the surface. On the other hand, people working on the airfields surrounding Vienna in late years of war were far from qualified too! Hundreds of funny tails were told on this matter!

A friend of mine was pilot there in later years and got this tailes from his instructers, which were in  late war years on this airfield flying.

Some light you bought in this matter.

What I can add is: On specific 109 literature about production and operation there is no comment at all to red UC!

Happy modelling 

[tempestfan]

9 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

For very late war, maybe.

 

AFAIK, the red legs are seen summer/autumn 44.  And are seen on AS engine types, which were new, and this was for quick recognition.

 

one of the few that is absolutely confirmed as red

 

 

Worthy of note are the yellow underwing tips, the RLM25 Grün RVT bands immediately aft of the Balkankreuz, and the Spiralschnauze on "gelbe 2" but not on "weiße 5".  Also, all aircraft carry a relatively standard 74/75/76 scheme.  All visible aircraft carry the R3 droptank mod, and "gelbe 2" has the fuselage-mounted FuG 16zy Morane mast (look carefully...it appears to be striped, but that may be an illusion)."

There it is again, the infamous "Balkankreuz" 🙂 I know, not your typo. 

If they are all AS's and the red was connected with the AS, then it would be logical that all in the picture would feature this. It's a pity that apparently the wheels of all others have covers on, and the leg of Weiße 5 looks more yellow on my screen - but this may be due to reflection, I guess? In any case, it does not look 66.

[2996 Victor]

This is all absolutely fascinating stuff to me: another aspect of Luftwaffe colours I had no inkling of. Especially interesting as I've got Eduard G-6/AS and G-14/AS overtrees looking for subjects!

 

A small question if I may, posed from a position of total ignorance, regarding the photograph of II./JG27 at Fels am Wagram in August 1944. Is it a known fact that Weiße 5 is actually Weiße 5 and not Gelbe 5? The reason I ask is that its u/c legs look pinkish to me, and I wondered if this was a factor of the lighting and they are also actually red. In which case, could the white numeral actually be yellow. As I said, this is asked from a position of ignorance having merely looked at the photo, so please don't shoot me down!

 

Cheers,

Mark

[Jochen Barett]

 

8 hours ago, SafetyDad said:

 

Is this the same? 

 

 

+++

 

 

I'd consider that primer's color relies on iron oxide in it (like blood) and minium / "Mennige" is lead based and bright orange (not red or reddish brown).

 

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=Mennige&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjjtIHM-pqAAxU-zgIHHfXEA8AQ0pQJegQIDhAB&biw=1464&bih=742&dpr=1

[SafetyDad]

1 hour ago, Jochen Barett said:

 

 

 

I'd consider that primer's color relies on iron oxide in it (like blood) and minium / "Mennige" is lead based and bright orange (not red or reddish brown).

 

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=Mennige&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjjtIHM-pqAAxU-zgIHHfXEA8AQ0pQJegQIDhAB&biw=1464&bih=742&dpr=1

 

Thanks Jochen - I wasn't convinced they were the same colour

 

SD

[dov]

https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minium

This is minium as used and still in use for steel anti- corosion purpose!

@SafetyDad, @Jochen Barett

 

Happy modelling 

[Jochen Barett]

All the Mennige I ever saw in real life was orange or "orangy", not even close to RAL 3000 Feuerrot or RLM 23 (close to RAL 3020 Verkehrsrot) - and I doubt it would (left uncovered with another paint) darken in such a way (from the date of the plane's manufacture to the date the picture was taken)  that it could come close the the red 109-legs shown above (or the reddishbrown or oxblood wood/fabric sealer shown above).

 

But I stopped using it many moons ago in order to comply with RoHS rules.

[tempestfan]

6 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

A small question if I may, posed from a position of total ignorance, regarding the photograph of II./JG27 at Fels am Wagram in August 1944. Is it a known fact that Weiße 5 is actually Weiße 5 and not Gelbe 5? The reason I ask is that its u/c legs look pinkish to me, and I wondered if this was a factor of the lighting and they are also actually red. In which case, could the white numeral actually be yellow. As I said, this is asked from a position of ignorance having merely looked at the photo, so please don't shoot me down!

 

Cheers,

Mark

Not less ignorant than you are, that may very well be the case, I think - to me the legs looked yellowish, but then the legs of Gelbe 2 have a lot of reflection,too. I am not quite sure whether the optical  impression of  "red" on Gelbe 2's leg may be caused (or rather, enhanced?) by the inside of the leg cover being red, also? Regrettably the pic of the wreck posted by @Troy Smith doesn't show the inside cover, as it seems to have gone AWOL due to the blast.

Edit: "whatever" 5 is also interesting as it looks to have no mottling to the fuselage sides, with a pretty high demarcation and an appearance not that far from an early-to-mid 1940 E. There also looks to be a lot less soot behind the exhausts as compared to "2". I wonder if this and the lack of Kullerschnauze mean it was a recent arrival, with the spiral and mottling being added at unit level if and when time permitted?

I will insert no exclamation mark anywhere because I was not fortunate enough to get some at the latest Lidl sale - and really, only ??'s are appropriate IMHO.  

Edited July 19, 2023 by tempestfan

[WrathofAtlantis]

On 18/07/2023 at 19:46, dov said:

Now: After re-reading the old post and all other information lined up:

C3 is green 100 octan

B4 is blue with 87 (4) octan

B4 with red dyed anilin has more octan as B4 natural and is finaly a red fluid.

GM-1 & MW50 needs C3 fuel.

Whatever it is, on pics with 109 with red legs we should check the fuel stencil and/or the GM-1 / MW50 stencil.

I do not know.

A silly idea is, because of lack of paint they used unpainted legs  just primed with minium. This is a red anti-corossion paint.

The old post never answered the question. Just ideas and guessing was dropped.

So far.

Happy modelling 

 

 

  I had never heard of "red" "higher octane" B4. I did know MW-50 required C-3 fuel, and did hear the notion of red gear legs being related to that. Fuel cap stencils are mostly B4/C3 related, from what I have seen, and varied widely in appearance. And even sometimes in the fuel designation used... But it basically boiled down to one or the other.

 

  It is important to note that GM-1 is a much more elaborate and specialized affair than MW-50, and required a temperature controlled fuel truck and a thick walled thermos tank for the nitrous-oxide. In Me-109Gs, I only ever heard of GM-1 being used, briefly, by G-5s in 1943, although for the FW-190A a broader time frame seems possible. GM-1 gave extreme high speed to the Me-109G-5 at extreme altitudes (715 km/h TAS at over 30 000 ft, in mid 1943!), probably good enough to intercept recon Mosquitoes, but was otherwise of very limited practical use.

 

  MW-50 on the other hand saw widespread use on G-14s during the summer of 1944, but by then the Allies had such an ascendency in numbers and high altitude flights (MW-50 added speed and climb rate mostly below 20 000 ft) that this power was of little use for the slow speed turns that were needed to break high speed diving attacks from above. By late Summer '44 the Luftwaffe had finally learned, contrary to pre-War assumptions (and misleading Eastern Front experiences against opponents using mostly one-way radios!), that slow speed turns easily broke hit and run attacks, and MW-50 was little more than added dead weight for turning, so its use dwindled drastically by the Fall, at least in the G-14s, which were often de-plumbed to a simpler G-6 standard. Eric Hartmann, in November 44, has his G-14 written down as a "G-6", despite its Werknumber being clearly of a "G-14", and this likely meant his G-14 was also de-plumbed, despite Hartmann being one of the few pilots who liked MW-50.... Being an assiduous "Hit and Run" pilot, Hartmann made the only positive quote I have ever read concerning MW-50 in the Me-109G: "MW-50 was the only thing that kept the Me-109G competitive in the West." 

 

  If red gear legs are associated with C-3, and C-3 is necessary to use MW-50, then the rarity of red gear legs is possibly a clue as to how out of favour MW-50 was by the end of 1944. Even in black and white photos, they probably would show up as very dark... 

 

  Another clue of MW-50 unpopularity is two separate instances I have read of FW-190As landing, from being out of fuel, at Me-109G-equipped frontline bases, in September and October 1944. In both cases it was completely impossible to re-fuel the 190, because the only fuel available at these (French) Me-109 bases was B4 fuel. This limitation was so severe than in both cases the Fw-190A became completely stranded, and had to be abandoned there by its pilot(!)...

 

  I doubt the FW-190A itself was a widespread user of MW-50 (it seems more common in A-4s in 1943 than later on), but even in its basic form it could only use C3 fuel (this I think was applicable to all variants from the start). That two separate instances exist of FW-190As becoming stranded, merely for landing at Me-109 bases, indicates to me MW-50 use in Me-109 units was no longer that widespread in late 1944. It also seems to me pictures of red gears on "Beulen" Me-109Gs are rather uncommon. G-10s and K-4s might be another story, but it would not surprise me if, past the Summer of '44 -the heyday of MW-50 in Me-109s- many of these late birds were de-plumbed as well.

 

  

 

  

 

  

 

   

 

  

Edited July 19, 2023 by WrathofAtlantis

[Jochen Barett]

15 minutes ago, WrathofAtlantis said:

+++  If red gear legs are associated with C-3, and C-3 is necessary to use MW-50, then the rarity of red gear legs is possibly a clue as to how out of favour MW-50 was by the end of 1944. Even in black and white photos, they probably would show up as very dark... 

+++

 

Some more speculation may be found here (sorry German, I hope google translate will help and there is a bunch of interesting links to older 109 versions and their light&dark legs anyway): https://www.modellboard.net/index.php?topic=40868.0

 

MW-50 is nicely explained here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MW_50

and to my understanding the engine's compression ratio (and supercharger pressure (and ignition timing)) would dictate 100 or allow 87 octan fuel. As long as you have a supercharger temporary MW-50 injection might come in handy to give a comparatively cheap power boost, without a supercharger you would probably have to provide constand water injection.

 

When it comes to ground handling, it would have been "helpful" to know which planes demand to be filled with MW-50, but it might have even have been "important" not to fill B4 into a plane requiring 100 octan fuel (and a waste to put 100 octan fuel into a plane that would run as well on 87).

[Jochen Barett]

And let me add another set of red legs:

 

https://falkeeins.blogspot.com/2021/11/bf-109-and-bf-110-nightfighters-in.html

[Super Aereo]

With all due respect to Troy and others, for what concerns the

 

"Me109-G14/AS/R3 III.9.JG300 ex-I.1.JG3 White1 WrkN165693 with Tall T3-Rudder & Fo987 Deep Oil Cooler & White Fuselage Band & Team of Oxen Tows Aircraft to Its Dispersal At Juterbog AirBase, Germany September, 1944"

 

Note, standard wheel hub colour was black.   so red hub, number and band.  

 

there is simply no possible combination of film and filters that would show red as white in b/w and show it with the same tone as the white number 1.

 

What I can see there is just an aircraft which still has the white fuselage band from JG3.

 

Just my two cents.

[Dave Fleming]

Just throwing this in the mix, G-14AS - do they look like red overpainted with black/RLM 66?

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Super Aereo said:

there is simply no possible combination of film and filters that would show red as white in b/w and show it with the same tone as the white number 1.

I said the number was red as well, I just quoted the caption from where I eventually found the photo which says white 1.

 

I posted the image as I recalled the discussion on the band and the  wheel appearing as near white I the image.

 

I'll @JackG  on film/filter possibilities.

 

HTH