F111K

[Lawzer]

All, I’ve purchased this from @jhutchi :

 

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/zhengdefu-df-327-general-dynamics-fb-111a--966719

 

I quite fancy doing it as an RAF whif “K”.

 

a quick look on Wikipedia would suggest the kit is a good staring point (seemingly the strengthened MLG).  Now I’m not really bothered at 100% accuracy as the K never actually flew but for the F111 aficionados is there anything else I would need to do?

 

Also any suggestions on colour scheme and also period correct rounders etc (I have little enough idea about ww2 rounders let alone more modern ones 😬)?
 

cheers

 

Ian

[Rabbit Leader]

Paul Lucas has written a two part series on the F-111K in the last two months of Scale Aircraft Modelling. That would be a good place to start I’d say. 
Cheers and best of luck.. Dave 

[Hook]

At the minimum I would fit a Buccaneer style refuelling probe in front of the windscreen and a Phantom style RWR box on top of the vertical tail. .

 

For added Britishness.   

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

[David Womby]

To match what was planned to be bought as the F-111K, you need to trim the wings and change the intakes to F--111A standard.   However, as it is whatif, you could leave everything as is, paint it up in RAF colours and call it part of a second delivery of F-111K Mk2 or Merlin FGR2?

 

David

[ElectroSoldier]

1 hour ago, Hook said:

At the minimum I would fit a Buccaneer style refuelling probe in front of the windscreen and a Phantom style RWR box on top of the vertical tail. .

 

For added Britishness.   

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

Would the refuelling probe have been mounted there given what it would need to go through and past in order to route the pipework?

38 minutes ago, David Womby said:

To match what was planned to be bought as the F-111K, you need to trim the wings and change the intakes to F--111A standard.   However, as it is whatif, you could leave everything as is, paint it up in RAF colours and call it part of a second delivery of F-111K Mk2 or Merlin FGR2?

 

David

No.
It would have had the long wings of the FB-111A and the Triple plow I intakes of the F-111A.
It would have been very much along the lines of the F-111C that Australia had.

 

2 hours ago, Lawzer said:

All, I’ve purchased this from @jhutchi :

 

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/zhengdefu-df-327-general-dynamics-fb-111a--966719

 

I quite fancy doing it as an RAF whif “K”.

 

a quick look on Wikipedia would suggest the kit is a good staring point (seemingly the strengthened MLG).  Now I’m not really bothered at 100% accuracy as the K never actually flew but for the F111 aficionados is there anything else I would need to do?

 

Also any suggestions on colour scheme and also period correct rounders etc (I have little enough idea about ww2 rounders let alone more modern ones 😬)?
 

cheers

 

Ian

 

Any scheme applied to the Tornado would have fit the F-111K. The roundels would probably fit too.
most Tornado decal sheets will do I would think

[f111guru]

3 hours ago, Lawzer said:

All, I’ve purchased this from @jhutchi :

 

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/zhengdefu-df-327-general-dynamics-fb-111a--966719

 

I quite fancy doing it as an RAF whif “K”.

 

a quick look on Wikipedia would suggest the kit is a good staring point (seemingly the strengthened MLG).  Now I’m not really bothered at 100% accuracy as the K never actually flew but for the F111 aficionados is there anything else I would need to do?

 

Also any suggestions on colour scheme and also period correct rounders etc (I have little enough idea about ww2 rounders let alone more modern ones 😬)?
 

cheers

 

Ian

This I would enjoy watching the WIP. The only images I have are the ones produced by General Dynamics of the mock-up. I also may have an artists image somewhere.

 

Is the kit a re-release from the old Academy kit? I have one of the F-111E kits but other than that I'm unfamiliar with the company.. Nice thing about the academy kit it gives both styles of intakes and with the C model has the rounded nose weapons pylons. Sp what ever direction you go I would like to see a work in progress.

 

All The Best,

Ron VanDerwarker

 

[David Womby]

1 hour ago, ElectroSoldier said:

 

No.
It would have had the long wings of the FB-111A and the Triple plow I intakes of the F-111A.
It would have been very much along the lines of the F-111C that Australia had.

 

Sorry but the extended wings thing is a common misconception due to a photo of the two F-111K airframes where a table looks like the end of the extended wing.  Here is config. drawing showing what is F-111A, what was to be unique to F-111K and what is from FB-111 (note there would be a retractable IFR ahead of the cockpit too).

 

 

 

 

David

[Hook]

1 hour ago, ElectroSoldier said:

Would the refuelling probe have been mounted there given what it would need to go through and past in order to route the pipework?

It would probably less hassle than replacing the J79's with Speys on the Phantom.

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

[71chally]

3 hours ago, Lawzer said:

Also any suggestions on colour scheme and also period correct rounders etc (I have little enough idea about ww2 rounders let alone more modern ones 😬)?
 

cheers

 

Ian

Colour scheme wise I would choose anything that RAF Buccaneer and some of the tactical strike Phantom/Jaguar Squadrons used, 1969-early 1980s.  Light Aircraft grey undersides with Dark Sea Grey and dark Green camo tops/sides, initially in gloss polyurethane finish with full colour roundels, switching to semi-matt finish from around 1973 with a change to the two colour tactical roundels.  From around 1977 a wrap around camo scheme was adopted.

 

Refuelling probe wise, I would depict it with the same style that the US Navy F-111B used, the folding affair just ahead of the windscreen assembly.

[Pappy]

8 hours ago, f111guru said:

This I would enjoy watching the WIP. The only images I have are the ones produced by General Dynamics of the mock-up. I also may have an artists image somewhere.

 

Is the kit a re-release from the old Academy kit? I have one of the F-111E kits but other than that I'm unfamiliar with the company.. Nice thing about the academy kit it gives both styles of intakes and with the C model has the rounded nose weapons pylons. Sp what ever direction you go I would like to see a work in progress.

 

All The Best,

Ron VanDerwarker

 

 

It is a (very, very crude) unlicenced copy of the Academy kit. Moulding is generally quite poor, a bit like when you photoocopy a photocopy and the decals are laughable (seriously have a read of the stencilsP) and it is probably best avoided

 

Pappy 

Edited January 9, 2023 by Pappy

[Pappy]

12 hours ago, Lawzer said:

All, I’ve purchased this from @jhutchi :

 

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/zhengdefu-df-327-general-dynamics-fb-111a--966719

 

I quite fancy doing it as an RAF whif “K”.

 

a quick look on Wikipedia would suggest the kit is a good staring point (seemingly the strengthened MLG).  Now I’m not really bothered at 100% accuracy as the K never actually flew but for the F111 aficionados is there anything else I would need to do?

 

Also any suggestions on colour scheme and also period correct rounders etc (I have little enough idea about ww2 rounders let alone more modern ones 😬)?
 

cheers

 

Ian

 

As I stated previously, this is a very poor copy of the Academy kit.

The decal sheet is worthless and should be burned but a few additional points,

 

1. The external fuel tanks are the wrong length, if you want something pretty close see if you can find the external tank provided in the old Monogram A-10 kit. The gas bags were not generally used unless the jet was conducting a ferry flight. F-111s had phenomenal internal range and would have been  supplemented with IFR tankers if required operationally. 

 

2. The outermost 'fixed' pylons were a different shape to the inner two swiveling pylons. The kit provides six identical pylons When employed, the fixed pylons were isntalled at angle that resulted in them pointing  inwards with the wings at forward sweep (16 degrees) so that they would be pointing paralell to the fuselage at the 26 degress wing sweep (best cruise) angle. with the result that the external tank installed would be pigeon toed relative to the other tanks. The huge drag this created means that F-111s rarely used this option operationally. The wings would have to be locjed out at 26 degrees.

 

2a. The kit features a 'working, pylon swivel mech. It sorta works, not for vey long and not very well. My advice would be to not bother with it, make a model instead of a toy. Pick a wing sweep setting and stick with that. Any angle other than fully forward will result in a gap where wings tuck into the fuselage. The Jet is surprisingly big in 1/48 so it makes sense to tuck the wings back but you will need to come up with your own solution for the overwing seals.

 

3. The u/c configuraton depicted in the instrauctions is for very early F-111As. The heavy duty u/c that was destined for the F-111K was similar to the FB-111A (and also adopted for the RAAF F/RF-111Cs), t9o correct it you will need toreduce the rear door in size and make sure it hangs down almost vertically rather than extending behind horizontally as shown. The tyres would also be wider with different hubs as this was a feature of the heavy duty tyres.

 

I agree with others regarding the grey/green/ ightgrey as an initial scheme, especially if you want to be boring/predictable. You could also entertain an all over anti-flash white scheme (think TSR.2) for jets tasked with delivering instant sunshine. The camo scheme would have progressed to a 'wraparound' style and eventuallu an all over grey as the aircraft coninued in servicce. Don't forget the ARTF 'desert pink' scheme for Op Granby..

 

Most people focus on how the jet would look at the introduction to service but I think it would be more interesting to see how it would have evolved and matured in RAF sercice  Although originally designed to have short wings, the longer wing toips could be added as a kit. The four F-111A attrition replacement jets delivered to the RAAF were modified this way but flew in RAAF livery for a short time with their original shorter wings. The wingtip extensions allowed for greater range so this may have been an option during an ugrade programme for your WHIF along with later engines, additional sensors (your kit does not include the PT pod) and weapons

 

Your WHIF after all, be creative!

 

cheers,

 

Pappy

 

Edited January 9, 2023 by Pappy

[Nigel Bunker]

17 hours ago, Hook said:

At the minimum I would fit a Buccaneer style refuelling probe in front of the windscreen

The refuelling probe on the F-111K was to be situated centrally in front of the canopy, but unlike the Buccaneer it was retractable, not fixed.

[ElectroSoldier]

15 hours ago, David Womby said:

Sorry but the extended wings thing is a common misconception due to a photo of the two F-111K airframes where a table looks like the end of the extended wing.  Here is config. drawing showing what is F-111A, what was to be unique to F-111K and what is from FB-111 (note there would be a retractable IFR ahead of the cockpit too).

 

 

 

 

David

Sorry yes indeed you are right.
The two F-111K aircraft that were built were redisignated as YF-111A.
I mixed up the Ausies.

1 hour ago, Nigel Bunker said:

The refuelling probe on the F-111K was to be situated centrally in front of the canopy, but unlike the Buccaneer it was retractable, not fixed.

Is that where it is on the YF-111A?

[Shorty84]

1 hour ago, Nigel Bunker said:

The refuelling probe on the F-111K was to be situated centrally in front of the canopy, but unlike the Buccaneer it was retractable, not fixed.

This overview is of better quality and shows the position of the retractable refueling probe clearly:

 

 

16 hours ago, David Womby said:

Sorry but the extended wings thing is a common misconception due to a photo of the two F-111K airframes where a table looks like the end of the extended wing.

I'm also planning to create a WHIF F-111K and of course the topic regarding the wings came up too. I came across an interesting discussion where a (unfortunately now dead) link to a publication (From Controversy to Cutting Edge - A History of the F-111 in Australian Service) was shared which claimed that only the first machines should get the short wings and the contract was changed for all subsequent machines to be equipped with the longer wings:

https://www.whatifmodellers.com/index.php?topic=47184.0

 

At last, I just want to point to a discussion I started regarding the changes for a F-111K which may is of interest for anyone wanting to create such a conversion:

 

Cheers

Markus

[David Womby]

FWIW, this was my first ever whif built in 2008 using the old Airfix F-111A.- 

 

After almost 10 years of service in the RAF, the F-111K that filled the place of the cancelled TSR2, had its first upgrade program.

The airframe had proved surprisingly robust and very successful for low level penetration missions. The main elements of the 1978 upgrade were avionics and only a few external differences were discernable after work was completed. An LRMTS (Laser Ranger and Marked Target Seeker) was fitted under the nose. A Marconi ARI18228 RWR suite was fitted to the fin top the same way it was being fitted to the Phantom  fleet. An ECM pod was integrated into the starboard weapons bay door containing a barrage noise jammer for long range detection radars similar to the Red Shrimp used on the Vulcan .

In keeping with the rest of the RAF attack fleet, the Merlins lost their light aircraft grey undersides and were repainted in standard wraparound dark sea grey / dark green camouflage.

This one is XV928, one of the second batch of F-111K deliveries, and is depicted around 1981 when serving with 27 squadron.

 

[bootneck]

Shouldn't this thread be in the What-if forum?

 

Mike

[Lawzer]

1 hour ago, bootneck said:

Shouldn't this thread be in the What-if forum?

 

Mike

Sorry - I didn't know there was one...... 

 

Thank you all for the replies.

 

So, I'm now wondering if it may be better for my sanity to just do an F111A RAF whif demo aircraft!!!!!!  

 

If I decide to proceed with this (either way) what would likely weapon load out be?

[Hook]

30 minutes ago, Lawzer said:

If I decide to proceed with this (either way) what would likely weapon load out be?

How about Martels?

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

[ElectroSoldier]

8 hours ago, bootneck said:

Shouldn't this thread be in the What-if forum?

 

Mike

Its not a build thread so no.

[Pappy]

2 minutes ago, ElectroSoldier said:

Its not a build thread so no.

 

Agreed, plus there were two airframes started and there was a contract in place for purchase of the F=111K, which was later cancelled.

The discussion is also related in a roundabout way to the TSR.2 programme

 

cheers,

 

Pappy

[Shorty84]

7 hours ago, Hook said:

How about Martels?

A definitive yes. Both Anti-Radar and Television-Guided variants would have been carried. I've just re-read the 'Colour Conundrum' articles @Rabbit Leader mentioned above, which give the following info regarding planned armament:

• Up to two WE177 (A or B ) internally
• Four Martel missiles (Anti-Radar or TV or mixed) on the four inboard swivelling pylons. For TV guidance, a guidance pod would be carried on the centre pylon in the weapon bay
• Up to thirty-four 1000lb high-explosive bombs (free-fall or retarded). Two could be carried internally, the remaining ones on up to eight wing pylons (four bombs on each pylon)
• SNEB rocket pods
• Lepus flares
• Weapon release simulator type 105
• Naval Air Staff Requirement 1197 Cluster bombs (500 or 1000lbs). This weapon requirement was eventually met by the BL755

 

The article also goes into detail regarding the planned config and colours. Regarding the planned config, basically everything was already covered in this thread, the only exceptions being:

• the requirement to install three strike cameras. While no details seem to be available regarding the exact installation of the strike cameras, it is mentioned that they should be "fitted in a fairing under the nose"
• the US refuelling system was to be retained
• the trainer variant (TF-111K) would omit the roller map display in the cockpit, could not carry the Recce pack and could not carry the TV variant of the Martel missile.

 

Regarding colours, a short summary of the content:

External camouflage:

• Dark Green BS 381C No.241/Dark Sea Gray BS 381C No.638 (Upper surface)
• Light Aircraft Gray BS 381 No.627 or Medium Sea Gray BS 381C No.637 (lower surface), the latter being mentioned in a Loose Minute which informed General Dynamics about the camo colours

 

Internal colours (cockpit):

• Specified both 'grey' (Dark Admiralty Grey BS 381C No.632) and 'light grey' (Light Admiralty Grey BS 381C No.637) for various components
• Black for the glare shield

 

There are of course much more info in both parts of the article, if interested I could scan them and provide them to you @Lawzer and anyone else who's interested.

 

Cheers

Markus

Edited January 9, 2023 by Shorty84

[AntPhillips]

If you google F-111K and go to the Wikipedia page there is a photograph of the 2 part finished airframes in the GD factory:

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/General_Dynamics_F-111

the airframes were subsequently stripped back to individual parts after the cancellation of the order.

[Pappy]

7 hours ago, Lawzer said:

Sorry - I didn't know there was one...... 

 

Thank you all for the replies.

 

So, I'm now wondering if it may be better for my sanity to just do an F111A RAF whif demo aircraft!!!!!!  

 

If I decide to proceed with this (either way) what would likely weapon load out be?

 

No need to apologise, this is the right place to ask all the 'dumb' questions.

 

An RAF demo is a soft option but if you just want to slap some RAF decals on an F-111A it is the easiest option. If it was a demo, the weapon load would likely be nothing. In the time frame that this was happening, graphic artists would create drawings in a prospective buyers colours but would not paint a demonstrator jet in the proposed colours unless a contract was signed.

 

If you just want an easy build of slapping some decals on the kit and calling it an F-111K, you need to remember that the F-111A began life without a PT pod which was developed later so for an initial bomb load you would be limited yo unguided bombs.

 

The F-111 used dedicated BRU-3A/As that were rated for high speed release (very early F-111As used the six position MERs while waiting for delivery of the BRUs) and TERs were never used.  Being an American designed platform they were designed to release the US MK.80 series bombs which the UK did not use. This doesn't mean UK pattern bombs would not fit as the hook spacing was NATO standard 14" and 30" so the UK would need to do its own clearance and weapon separation trials to verify (The RAAF did this anyway despite ussng the MK.80 series bombs) they would play nice.

 

Stores could also be suspended beneath each pylon singly without the MER.

 

I think the only 1/48 kit that includes these is the Academy F-111E (HB just provide MERs one of the multitude of errors that this kit has)

 

Missiles, as mentioned already Martel as well as the nuke (in the bay). Your kit includes the (poorly shaped) gun fairing which was a feature of the F-111A/C. The gun sytem was later removed and rthe space was used for the PT pod (or the recce pallet in the case of the RAAF RF-111C), again this is a WHIF so you draw on F-4K?Bucc and Tornado as inspiration but this is the reason why I suggest an F-111K later in its career when the mature pltform would have a lot more interesting options of LGB/GPS  weapons

 

cheers,

 

Pappy

 

 

[Pappy]

15 minutes ago, Shorty84 said:

A definitive yes. Both Anti-Radar and Television-Guided variants would have been carried. I've just re-read the 'Colour Conundrum' articles @Rabbit Leader mentioned above, which give the following info regarding planned armament:

• Up to two WE177 (A or B ) internally
• Four Martel missiles (Anti-Radar or TV or mixed) on the four inboard swivelling pylons. For TV guidance, a guidance pod would be carried on the centre pylon in the weapon bay
• Up to thirty-four 1000lb high-explosive bombs (free-fall or retarded). Two could be carried internally, the remaining ones on up to eight wing pylons (four bombs on each pylon)
• SNEB rocket pods
• Lepus flares
• Weapon release simulator type 105
• Naval Air Staff Requirement 1197 Cluster bombs (500 or 1000lbs). This weapon requirement was eventually met by the BL755

 

The article also goes into detail regarding the planned config and colours. Regarding the planned config, basically everything was already covered in this thread, the only exceptions being:

• the requirement to install three strike cameras. While no details seem to be available regarding the exact installation of the strike cameras, it is mentioned that they should be "fitted in a fairing under the nose"
• the US refuelling system was to be retained
• the trainer variant (TF-111K) would omit the roller map display in the cockpit, could not carry the Recce pack and could not carry the TV variant of the Martel missile.

 

Regarding colours, a short summary of the content:

External camouflage:

• Dark Green BS 381C No.241/Dark Sea Gray BS 381C No.638 (Upper surface)
• Light Aircraft Gray BS 381 No.627 or Medium Sea Gray BS 381C No.637 (lower surface), the latter being mentioned in a Loose Minute which informed General Dynamics about the camo colours

 

Internal colours (cockpit):

• Specified both 'grey' (Dark Admiralty Grey BS 381C No.632) and 'light grey' (Light Admiralty Grey BS 381C No.637) for various components
• Black for the glare shield

 

There are of course much more info in both parts of the article, if interested I could scan them and provide them to you @Lawzer and anyone else who's interested.

 

Cheers

Markus

 

+ 1 please

 

Pappy

[Hook]

1 hour ago, Shorty84 said:

For TV guidance, a guidance pod would be carried on the centre pylon in the weapon bay

Or on the external hardpoint between the aft fuselage strakes where the USAF carried ECM pods.

 

Cheers,

 

Andrr