All the Hurricane questions you want to ask here

[ClaudioN]

19 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

One thought occurs,  given we have a mechanic working on the port wing and the port leading edge cover removed,  that IF this is external rack or carrier  of some kind on the starboard wing,  that this is taken during the fitting of the same one on the port wing?

Or removal from both wings? There's Eagle in the background, so we are close to the start of Operation Pedestal. Whatever it is, that "thing" would certainly add drag in the forthcoming combats.

 

Although Hurribombers started with BExxx serials, as @Graham Boak remarked, there were Hurricane Mk. I fighter-bombers with No. 80 Sqn in the Middle East. Just a possibility that BD771 was so fitted after missing the ferry run to the Far East, but before Indomitable collected it (from Aden, IIRC?). Albacores in the background appear to be fitted with some bulky, barrel-like ordnance (depth charges?), a reminder that there was no shortage of load-carriers aboard.

[Dave Swindell]

1 hour ago, Troy Smith said:

I don't know, I'm testing ideas.   

Always good to do, and I'm open to suggestions, but the more I look at this the more it says bomb carrier to me.

 

I don't recall a load under one wing of a hurricane either, but I do recall asymmetric loads, fuel tank under one wing and 4 rockets under the other.

There is the mechanic working on the port wing exactly above where this is on the stbd wing, so as yourself and @ClaudioN suggest, this could be a snapshot in time during fitting or removal

There's nothing else on the deck anywhere except at the edges, personnel, or wheel chocks.

 

If you zoom right in:-

 

1 - "struts" align exactly with drop tank lug locations

2 - front of the "pylon" overlaps wing underside, this is attached to the wing, not on the deck behind the wing

3 - "bomb carrier" aligns exactly with the "pylon"

4 - "Bomb carrier sway braces"

5 - positions of 4 x gun blast tubes - note alignment of "pylon" with no 2 gun from inboard 

 

There's too many coincidences here with the positioning of this item for it to be some item of deck equipment that is the right shape and size to be mistaken for a bomb carrier under the wing and be the only object left on the deck and in the exact position to achieve this for this photo.

 

I don't know why this arrangement has been fitted, but that's what I'm seeing.

[iang]

I agree it looks like a bomb carrier. The photo must have been taken between 7th August and 11th August, as this is the only window where Indomitable and Eagle were in company in 1942. As far as I can see, there is nothing in the 880 Squadron Dairy, Admiralty Battle Report on Pedestal,  and Indomitable's Report on Operations relating to the use of bomb carriers on Sea Hurricanes. 

 

I have an unpublished photo of 7Z on the deck of Indomitable taken after the ship was bombed on 12 August and before indomitable returned to Gibraltar on 15th. The photo shows one other (unidentifiable) Sea Hurricane and the Spitfire that landed on Indomitable on 11 August (ex-Furious ferry Spitfire). There is no bomb-rack fitted to 7Z in this photo.

 

According to the 880 Squadron Diary, BD771 was taken on charge by 880 Squadron on 20 February 1942 as an ex-RAF Hurricane IIB tropical and converted to a Sea Hurricane on February 21. It was most often flown by Pugh and Judd before Pedestal - or to be more accurate, where a pilot is listed, it is usually one of these two. This is no Combat Report relating to BD771 during Pedestal, but several do not list any serial or code. Colour film exists showing 7Z after Operation Ironclad that shows it had been repainted in TSS (it's not clear when - possible as early as February).

[GrzeM]

Very interesting question.

One other plane cames to mind (but may be completely irrelevant here?):

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205186140

It is from BCxxx series, has bombs, and is used by Naval personnel on Malta. 

 

On 1/8/2023 at 12:33 AM, iang said:

I have an unpublished photo of 7Z on the deck of Indomitable taken after the ship was bombed on 12 August and before indomitable returned to Gibraltar on 15th. The photo shows one other (unidentifiable) Sea Hurricane and the Spitfire that landed on Indomitable on 11 August (ex-Furious ferry Spitfire). There is no bomb-rack fitted to 7Z in this photo.

Does any of these Sea Hurricanes have yellow fin and wing leading edges?

 

Best!

G.

 

[Troy Smith]

3 minutes ago, GrzeM said:

It is from BCxxx series,

BG not BC.   I don't think it particularly relevant, as it a Hurricane operated by Naval personnel,  not a RAF Hurricane kept by the navy and converted into a Sea Hurricane, which AFAIK is unique? 

 

On 07/01/2023 at 23:33, iang said:

Colour film exists showing 7Z after Operation Ironclad that shows it had been repainted in TSS

Is the film available, or is it in an archive? 

[iang]

13 hours ago, GrzeM said:

Very interesting question.

One other plane cames to mind (but may be completely irrelevant here?):

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205186140

It is from BCxxx series, has bombs, and is used by Naval personnel on Malta. 

 

Does any of these Sea Hurricanes have yellow fin and wing leading edges?

 

Best!

G.

 

7Z has a yellow fin. Not sure about leading edges, but I assume so. The Spitfire does not seem to and impossible to tell in the case of the unidentifiable SH as no part that would be yellow is in frame.  The 880 Squadron Diary indicates that these Pedestal markings were applied to all fighters on August 8th:“All naval fighter aircraft taking part in Pedestal are painted as follows: A yellow strip along the leading edge of both wings. Tail fin painted yellow except for red, white and blue national mark.” There is no doubt about the date, as the photo also shows the destroyed aft lift. 

 

Unless any SH survived in Indomitable's hangar, these three aircraft may be the survivors after the bombing on the 12th, other than those diverted to Victorious.* How they survived is an interesting question, given the damage to Indomitable's flight-deck. The two SH were part of a 4 x SH section ready on deck when the ship was bombed. I'm guessing the the the Spitfire was parked aft of the island out of the way, as it was not flown in combat during Pedestal.  Indomitable's narrative claims that 74 fighter sorties were flown on 12th August and that this would have been 78 had the 4 aircraft on deck launched. It seems likely that one - possibly two - of these did not survive, as I've  a poor copy of another photo that shows the trio of Spitfire and 2 SH taken from aft of the Spitfire looking forward. I don't think there is another SH forward of the other two. However, Indomitable's narrative claims that three SH were flown off on 28 August to Machrihanish, so it would seem that one other survived out of frame in both photos.

 

* According to Victorious' narrative, 12 Indomitable aircraft landed on: 9 SH and 3 Martlets.  One Martlet also F/L due to lack of fuel (13 in total). There is a slight inconsistency here as  Indomitable's narrative claims 14 aircraft were up when the ship was bombed. Of the 14 aircraft,  3 were landed on after expending ammunition (on Victorious), 2 F/L in sea, and  9 SH landed on Victorious. The discrepancy seems to be whether one or two aircraft F/L. Of course, at least one, possibly two of "Indomitable's" SH in this report were actually ex-Eagle.

 

[iang]

1 hour ago, Troy Smith said:

BG not BC.   I don't think it particularly relevant, as it a Hurricane operated by Naval personnel,  not a RAF Hurricane kept by the navy and converted into a Sea Hurricane, which AFAIK is unique? 

 

Is the film available, or is it in an archive? 

I have a screen shot. I believe it is IWM film.

[GrzeM]

Thank you Troy and Ian for quick answers - despite the late time.

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

9 hours ago, iang said:

I'm guessing the the the Spitfire was parked aft of the island out of the way, as it was not flown in combat during Pedestal. 

To confirm things, agreed the Spitfire landed on Indomitable after flying off Furious bound for Malta?  Operation Bellows/Grinnel 40 Spitfires on Furious, 1 did not take off, 1 landed on Indomitable.

[GrzeM]

10 hours ago, iang said:

 

* According to Victorious' narrative, 12 Indomitable aircraft landed on: 9 SH and 3 Martlets.  One Martlet also F/L due to lack of fuel (13 in total). There is a slight inconsistency here as  Indomitable's narrative claims 14 aircraft were up when the ship was bombed. Of the 14 aircraft,  3 were landed on after expending ammunition (on Victorious), 2 F/L in sea, and  9 SH landed on Victorious. The discrepancy seems to be whether one or two aircraft F/L. Of course, at least one, possibly two of "indomitable's" SH in this report were actually ex-Eagle.

So does the photo linked below show Indomitable planes on the Victorious?

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205185912

6G from 800 and 7E from 880?

G.

[iang]

35 minutes ago, GrzeM said:

So does the photo linked below show Indomitable planes on the Victorious?

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205185912

6G from 800 and 7E from 880?

G.

Yes, the deck markings are unique to Victorious, so there is no doubt.

[Graham Boak]

It could well be an attachment for a fuel tank, as the aircraft was intended to fly off the deck to Java.  However, it looksrather more like the previous fixed pylon for a fixed tank, not a drop tank.  There would be no mechanism for releasing it, unlike the later fairing over the semi-installed carrier on slightly later Hurricanes.  Assuming this, what looks like L braces where the pylon is attached to the wing does not match the later fit and might be visible on other photos of Hurricanes with fixed tanks.  I haven't seen any but I've never looked.  It does look very much like a standard carrier mounted below that, and it would seem logical that such a local "bodge" fit might well require some kind of side brace.  But going with this assumption the pylon and the carrier don't seem to align... and the lack of a port mounting is worrying.

 

The picture of Z on the bow is what convinced me that it had a different camouflage, retaining the Temperate Land Scheme, which is why Peter painted it that way for me in the Scale Modelling article on Pedestal.  However I did later see some wartime colour film which showed it in TSS, so I presume it was just freshly painted.

 

On 1/7/2023 at 7:17 PM, Dave Swindell said:

Don't you think it's a bit more than a coincidence that the "struts" align exactly with the drop tank lugs on the stbd wing?

AGB: I would if I thought that they did.  I think they go outboard.

[GrzeM]

Hi,

is this Hurricane profile confirmed with photos/source data? I have seen this and similar profiles, but no other confirmations.

 

Thank you in advance for help!

 

Best!

G.

[Troy Smith]

3 hours ago, GrzeM said:

Hi,

is this Hurricane profile confirmed with photos/source data? I have seen this and similar profiles, but no other confirmations.

 

Thank you in advance for help!

 

Best!

G.

Originally from Aircraft in Profile.  I'd need to have a dig to see if there is a photo, I don't recall one.

Relevant  page.

 

[GrzeM]

Thank you!

I see that the caption is copied from the Aircraft in Profile too! That's maybe not a proof,  but a clue for sure!

 

Thank you!

G.

[Pete in Lincs]

I found this on line. Captioned Hurricane being made ready for the next scramble September 1940. It may be of use to someone.

 

https://64.media.tumblr.com/d34229894a0b698e5d1b67d7d314876c/13f0008baa945488-83/s640x960/7d447403bca2eeaa5ad5152933e4ed84ac1d0585.jpg

[Troy Smith]

16 minutes ago, Pete in Lincs said:

I found this on line. Captioned Hurricane being made ready for the next scramble September 1940. It may be of use to someone.

 

https://64.media.tumblr.com/d34229894a0b698e5d1b67d7d314876c/13f0008baa945488-83/s640x960/7d447403bca2eeaa5ad5152933e4ed84ac1d0585.jpg

 

I doubt this is September 1940,  note the trees in the background are bare.

This is also a early Hurricane, fabric wing, early style windscreen with curved lower edge and external armour.

It's a famous press image,  

I'm pretty sure this is from a sequence of photos taken of 601 Sq, this being another

 

certainly pre May 1940 from the markings,  I'd suggest early spring 1940 from bare trees, muddy airfield but not winter uniforms.

there is a thread on 601 Sq Hurricanes here

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235031775-no-601-squadron-hurricanes-mki-with-flying-sword-on-the-lower-engine-cowling/page/2/

 

[Graham Boak]

On 1/7/2023 at 9:28 PM, ClaudioN said:

Although Hurribombers started with BExxx serials, as @Graham Boak remarked, there were Hurricane Mk. I fighter-bombers with No. 80 Sqn in the Middle East. 

 Indeed, but this does need clarifying.  The Mk.IIB (and IIC) Hurribombers had strengthened wings and carriers for 250lb bombs in the wing.  The 80 Sq. Mk.Is only used the standard RAF carrier for four 60lb or practice bombs, which could be fitted to pretty well any type in service.  They are commonly seen under the fuselage of Blenheims aft of the bombbay, and on previous generation aircraft pre-war.  I think the only source is in the Airfix Swordfish kit, although even this is a bit agricultural for the small and very light carrier. 

 

Edit: just to make clear, the carriers were (partially) inside the wings, not the bombs.  

[Pete in Lincs]

Thanks, Troy. I'm no Hurricane expert but I did wonder. 

I thought the uniforms were a bit OTT for a fast BoB turnaround. Hot September? so they'd probably be in shirtsleeves, without chip hats on the line and hurrying.

Never noticed the curved screen before. I see they're square in your picture. 

So yes, probably a bit of propaganda for the press.

[Graham Boak]

The date on the photo may well be the date it was released for publication rather than the date it was taken.  Many photos were only seen in public well after the event.

[dogsbody]

4 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

  I'm pretty sure this is from a sequence of photos taken of 601 Sq, this being another

 

certainly pre May 1940 from the markings,  I'd suggest early spring 1940 from bare trees, muddy airfield but not winter uniforms.

there is a thread on 601 Sq Hurricanes here

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235031775-no-601-squadron-hurricanes-mki-with-flying-sword-on-the-lower-engine-cowling/page/2/

 

 

I see that the Hurc on the right is a fabric-winged, early version.

 

 

 

Chris

[Kallisti]

Nice to see a pic with the inside of the fuselage panel with the first aid kit visible...

[Solar Panel Phil]

Greetings! 

I've seen in the wheel wells there were two (presumably glazed) viewing apertures so that the Hurricane pilot could see the undercarriage wheels either up or down - but on reading my Hurricane material I only read that these were plated over at some later stage - any info as to when? I'm guessing all MK.IIs were plated but any earlier? BoB machines?  Any info appreciated!

[Solar Panel Phil]

Went to the Duxford Hurricane exhibition today - asked one of the IWM guys in attendance the same question as above - he thought the windows had been on all variants - so he and I hopped across the ropes to check several of Mk I and Mk IIs there - he was right, all had the wheel well rectangular viewing windows. Perhaps he was right, perhaps even later variants did as I thought I’d read above. 

[StevSmar]

On 12/5/2022 at 6:51 AM, Troy Smith said:

I was sent this to post by Dave Wadman @tango98

, I'll @Graham Boak @StevSmar

Thank you Troy, that is helpful for clearing up that Hurricane mystery.