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Sean_M

All the Hurricane questions you want to ask here

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I am about to start a Hurricane so |I thought I would start this thread. The Spitfire thread I started seems to be a melting pot where we all share and learn...first (stupid question)....I hope people find this helpful...doh!

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..okay, I'll go; part way through an Airfix Mk1. Some pics show what I've taken to be a rather primitive gun sight on the forward cowl...others don't. What is it?

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Ring (in the cockpit) and bead (on the cowling, usually.) Similar to the sights seen on WWI aircraft, and forerunner to the "proper" electric gunsight. It's possible to see it on some of the very early Spitfires, too.

Edgar

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thank you !

FWIW Jean-Louis Roba just published a nice monograph on the Hurricane in France Sept 39-May 40 (100 pages, 200 photos, 20 artworks, French text, 12euros) pdf extract here

http://www.avions-bateaux.com/uploads/attachment/produit//produit_2188_edf4d9a18abc9f5b28613ac5d106af0f.pdf

Edited by FalkeEins

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Very interesting! Can you say if it adds anything to the history of 607 Sq as given in 20 Days in May or The Battle of France Then and Now?

Edit: Hmm. OK, that's perhaps asking a bit much of you! Does it say much about 607 - photos, profiles? I suspect not the latter.

Edited by Graham Boak

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That WAS a rather detailed question, Graham! The preview certainly looks attractive- good crisp photo reproduction.

bob

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Ok a question from me which relates to the PDF extract above. What is the red patch underneath the squadron code to the 87 Sqn machine?

Trevor

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Ok a question from me which relates to the PDF extract above. What is the red patch underneath the squadron code to the 87 Sqn machine?

Trevor

Hi Trevor

I'd not trust the profiles, as on a quick scan I spotted errors, so unless there is a photo to go by, don't trust them....

errors -

L1842 G, has serial shown as 8", when it was 6, and usually painted out in France for security..

L2047 LK-H, has serial, right size, but it was standard to paint them out...., also, Rotol prop, very unusual on a fabric wing plane.

Belgian profiles, shows the 3rd rectangular access hatch on starboard side, not introduced until early 1940....

I'd search more but go to go...

T

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thanks for those links - forgot to add that Jean-Louis' booklet is 'Part I' (Part II of an on-going series 'The RAF in France 1939-40') and runs only up to 14 May, with Part II to come - its basically a day by day account of all RAF Hurricane Sqds actions with a separate section on Belgian Hurricanes. The (French) text covers 607's activities but there's not a great deal of 607 photo/profile content at first look. Compared to Cornwell's tome there is though a good deal of Hurricane pictorial coverage..( although some 30 of the 200 pics show Luftwaffe types..)

now, is Kain's 'Paddy III' on any decal sheet out there ?

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Pics of L2047:

http://m.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205259686

http://m.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205259690

Codes not painted over and you can see the square patch.

HTH

Andy

Thanks Andy

Thanks for hunting these up, yes, has serial and patch....but as i suspected, a poor profile.

as these are under discussion, posted up for clarity.

Hurricane_LK_H_L2047_profile.jpg

and compare to the photos below.

large.jpg

Note style of 6 inch high serial, which is quite wide, the lack of yellow outer ring to roundel, the Spitfire type De Havilland propeller.

Note the profile shows a Spitfire type Rotol BTW - see here http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234980181-hawker-hurricane-propellers-and-spinners-a-modellers-guide/ for what is what.

The patch is interesting, I would think most likely a repair that has not been totally painted over. I very much doubt it being red, note the film/filter used has the red centre as being very dark.

before someone points out that film can make yellow appear black, note the prop blade tip below is not. Yellow outer rings were only reintroduced in May 1940. These look to be prewar A1 types [35 inch fuselage, 49 inch upperwing] that have had the yellow outer rings overpainted, note the smaller than usual upperwing roundel as a result.

Also, shown better the the next photos, is the spinner, which is probably not black. Compare spinner with blades, and note how dark the roundel centre is.
Other photos from this photographer Bray C.R.
show 87 Sq planes with light spinners, and flight colured spinners were used by 85 Sq, and Sq ldr Ian Gleed's famous LK-A was sporting a red spinner in the BoB and beyond. looking at the roundels and the spinner, I would think red is the best option.
It could be black, but there are reason for it not to be as well.

large.jpg

So, pretty profile picture, but wrong in many details, so basically useless. The paint chipping particularly on the starboard wing is interesting, and occurs on some early Hurricanes, but not others.

Another search turn up this image

Interestingly this appears to be a L**** serialed Hurricane with metal wings [note position of landing light], and this clearly shows the overpainting of the upper wing roundels

large.jpg

light coloured 87 sq spinners

large.jpg

hope of interest

T

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Thanks Troy - the underside of that aircraft also appears to be silver not the black as in the profile. Perhaps late pre-war or early war time.

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That last photo [of the tipped up aircraft, I mean] and a detailed caption are in Hurricane Aces 1939-1940 (p.42/43), which puts it "sometime in mid-May".

bob

Edited by gingerbob

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Thanks Troy - the underside of that aircraft also appears to be silver not the black as in the profile. Perhaps late pre-war or early war time.

That last photo [of the tipped up aircraft, I mean] and a detailed caption are in Hurricane Aces 1939-1940 (p.42/43), which puts it "sometime in mid-May".

bob

I suspect that is wrong, as fin flashes and yellow outer rings were introduced in May 1940, and it's not pre war. [delivered 8-39]

Look at the trees in the background of the first photo. No leaves. That would give a window of Nov 1939 to April 1940.

Given the worn and chipped nature of the paint work I'd be inclined to a date in early spring 1940.

The Aluminium undersides on rear fuselage and non standard roundels and visible serial would suggest a replacement aircraft, as the initial component of the RAF in France seem to have complied with 'the rules' but later replacements, especially in the winter may have had up to 'the rules' painting delayed.

I tried to find out a bit more, as the Amazon preview of the F.K Mason Hurricane book has a 'look inside' facility, which mostly lets you seen the serials, but it just lists it as going to 43 sq in 8-39, and then 87 Sq, then 73 Sq, then 151 Sq, crashed 25-10-40.

The most interesting to me aspect is that this is a L**** serialed plane with metal wings, and they have been on for a while from the paint work and pre war markings overpainted.

cheers

T

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I am doing a Hasegawa MK I traditionally I always file down the oil ring on the nose. Does anyone know when it was introduced. I am not sure which pilot or Sqn I will do but it will be cJul-Sep 1940 BoB.

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Am I the only one who can see the yellow rings on LK-H's fuselage roundels? The red of the roundel is very dark so orthochromatic film and heaven knows what filter(s) may have been used.

They are clearly visible on the upper wing roundel as well.

As for the spinner it is much closer to the colour of the propeller blades than the red of the roundel in both images of LK-H. I don't know what colour it was, but if red it would appear black (or at least a very dark grey) in those photographs and it does not. Maybe some of us are looking for a Zebra when there's a donkey in the paddock :)

Steve

Edited by Stonar

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Am I the only one who can see the yellow rings on LK-H's fuselage roundels? The red of the roundel is very dark so orthochromatic film and heaven knows what filter(s) may have been used.

They are clearly visible on the upper wing roundel as well.

As for the spinner it is much closer to the colour of the propeller blades than the red of the roundel in both images of LK-H. I don't know what colour it was, but if red it would appear black (or at least a very dark grey) in those photographs and it does not. Maybe some of us are looking for a Zebra when there's a donkey in the paddock :)

Steve

Sorry Steve

what you are seeing is overpainted yellow, it's why it's not even ring on the fuselage.

originally a A1 type, as below, 35 inch on the fuselage, 49 inch upperwing, modfied to B upper wing and A fuselage by overpainting the yellow, and on the upperwing, white as well.

This is what it started out as

1937-5778-1-H-Hurric-I.jpg

to get to this

large.jpg

the prop tips are yellow, and they show up a pale colour.

To have the A1 as shown in the flying picture would make it prewar, and I have never seen a prewar Hurricane as grungy as this, and it's part of a series of photos taken in France, by CR Bray, as I linked above.

I said the spinner maybe black, I also pointed out that 87 sq used flight coloured spinners in France, with an example, and after, so a coloured spinner is possible, and it looks marginally lighter than the blades.

I don't just knock out posts willy nilly, I'm just looking at a photo and saying blah blah, it actually takes quite a long time, I'm assessing what, where, when and using what were the specified instructions, and reasons for variations.

T

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It also has the post for the bead of the "ring and bead" gunsight, pre-reflector, which seems a little primitive for a 8-39 delivery.

It was the 501st of a batch of 600: Mason says "almost all" fitted with fabric covered wings but some refitted with metal ones at MUs. Given the wear, and the likely early date, I suggest this one was built with metal wings.

EDIT: text deleted due to confusion (mine) on the basing of 43 Sq.

Edited by Graham Boak

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I have just pulled my copy of Jimmy Beedle's Squadron History ("43(F) The Fighting Cocks") off the shelf and in appendix 4 is contained several tables detailing the various aircraft types and individual airframes that served the squadron.

In the Hurricane Mk1 period (December 1938 to September 1942) L2047 is not listed as having been on the Squadron charge, the early batch of Hurricanes are mostly in the L17- - Range.

The only aircraft listed as being transferred to 87 Sqn is L1722 in October 1939.

The only L20-- series aircraft listed is L2066, This airframe is also noted as the first squadron aircraft with metal wings and the DeHavilland dual pitch prop.

Unfortunately this aircraft was lost in a mid air collision with L1734 in mid January 1940, having only been delivered to the Squadron in November 1939. (Sgt's Steeley and Mullinger were killed in this accident at Acklington.)

Edit: I have also found the reference to L2047 being delivered to 43(F) in the Mason monograph on Amazon's "Look Inside" pages, and he also has L2066 listed on the same page as a 43 Squadron aircraft as confirmed by the Sqn History.

Perhaps L2047 was allocated to 43 initially, but for what ever reason was quickly taken on by 87 Sqn.

Not definitive by any means, but interesting nonetheless.

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There isn't a known date (AFAIK) but it tends to be associated more with the Mk.II than the Mk.I. There's a photo of "Cowboy" Blatchford leaving his Hurricane around early November and there's no sign of the ring then. It certainly appeared on some Sea Hurricane Mk.Is but they were 1941 reworks, and it isn't on all of those.

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Any chance I can cut in and get an answer to my oil ring question?

I looked into some of my references. Pictures of Mk.Is in the Western Desert and Greece show at least some of them having the oil ring. 73 Sqn Hurricane Mk.is, sent from Britain to the Middle East in November 1940, hadn't.

Looking closely at some BoB pictures, the oil ring doesn't seem to be there. In some cases, what appears to be a sort of raised edge is actually the wider Spitfire-style spinner for the Rotol prop.

I would suggest the oil ring is a late-1940 to early-1941 modification. I'd like to know whether it was just introduced on production lines or it could also be a retrofit (seemingly an easy job, maybe not so essential?).

HTH

Claudio

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It appears after the introduction of the greater diameter propellor hub and spinner. Oil was seeping back over the cowl and on to the windscreen as I am led to believe. However from what I understand of the ring itself it wasn't a particularly complicated fit.

Edited by MilneBay

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