Bill1974 Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 Hi I am new to ships and have some experience in AFV's and Aircraft. I have plans to move into ships and have these two models in my Amazon basket. I know I'm probably asking a silly question, but... Can I use these models to create a diorama with a water base something like this? Also in my Amazon basket are these.... As a complete newbie to ships am I starting in the right place with the right stuff or am iissing something? I would really like to make a diorama with a nazi submarine underneath a tribal class convoy destroyer spitting out hedgehogs or something similar.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Courageous Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 Hi Bill, a very ambitious task you have set yourself, especially as a newbie. I display my ships on a water base, not as a dynamic diorama, usually a single ship underway and not going fast enough to create a bow wave and wake. I haven't used the Vallejo products but I have AK's and had no problems in using it albeit only to create small wavelets. Not much help I know, just my worth. Stuart 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bertie McBoatface Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 I applaud your ambition. Go for it! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandsaw Steve Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 Two pieces of advice: 1. Google ‘Chris Flodberg ships’. In my view this guy makes the best seascapes in the world and has published various articles on how he does it. 2. Study the geometry of ship’s wakes. A lot of modellers model what they think a ship’s wake looks like and end up with a wake that bears no resemblance to any wake that ever formed in the ‘real world’. Ship’s wakes form in specific patterns called a ‘kelvin envelope’ or ‘Kelvin Wake Pattern’ . Once you know something about these patterns you will avoid the worst errors. Steve 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cklasse Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 I am new to ship too and decided to start the year with one, a tiny Airfix 1/600 Hms Fearless. I am adding PE parts and intend to depict the ship in a calm sea during the Falklands war. There is this Korean guy in YouTube who makes insanely look like real sea. It’s a lot of work and skill but I will try to learn from his YouTube as well as Chris Flodberg. Studio blue ocean 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill1974 Posted January 21 Author Share Posted January 21 2 hours ago, Bandsaw Steve said: Two pieces of advice: 1. Google ‘Chris Flodberg ships’. In my view this guy makes the best seascapes in the world and has published various articles on how he does it. Thankyou for the advice, I found the search term to be spot on and I was able to find plenty of great photo materials and two painting guides and the weathering magazine 'water' which I've ordered and look forward eagerly in reading. Thanks! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill1974 Posted January 21 Author Share Posted January 21 2 hours ago, Bandsaw Steve said: 2. Study the geometry of ship’s wakes. A lot of modellers model what they think a ship’s wake looks like and end up with a wake that bears no resemblance to any wake that ever formed in the ‘real world’. Ship’s wakes form in specific patterns called a ‘kelvin envelope’ or ‘Kelvin Wake Pattern’ . Once you know something about these patterns you will avoid the worst errors. Is there any guides or other source material that you are aware of? 1 hour ago, Cklasse said: There is this Korean guy in YouTube who makes insanely look like real sea. It’s a lot of work and skill but I will try to learn from his YouTube as well as Chris Flodberg. Thanks, I've already had a quick look at his YouTube stuff and his work is amazing, thanks for the steer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill1974 Posted January 21 Author Share Posted January 21 I've been reading through some info and as far as I can gather modellers are cutting the bottom section of the hulls to sit flat on a base - am I right in assuming that? I had an idea (as a complete ship novice) of a full hull sat on supports directly underneath with a clear perspex or plastic sheet sat around the hull with water textures and stuff paint / added on top to create the sea - is that a silly idea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Church Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 4 hours ago, Bandsaw Steve said: Two pieces of advice: 1. Google ‘Chris Flodberg ships’. In my view this guy makes the best seascapes in the world and has published various articles on how he does it. 2. Study the geometry of ship’s wakes. A lot of modellers model what they think a ship’s wake looks like and end up with a wake that bears no resemblance to any wake that ever formed in the ‘real world’. Ship’s wakes form in specific patterns called a ‘kelvin envelope’ or ‘Kelvin Wake Pattern’ . Once you know something about these patterns you will avoid the worst errors. Steve I definitely second both those pieces of advice. Chris Flodberg's model seas are amazing. I used his method for my last build of H.M.S. Revenge. I aim to try out more different sea states and colours hopefully get them to look as good as Chris' ones! Enjoy your builds and best of luck with your model seas. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Church Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 1 hour ago, Bill1974 said: I've been reading through some info and as far as I can gather modellers are cutting the bottom section of the hulls to sit flat on a base - am I right in assuming that? I had an idea (as a complete ship novice) of a full hull sat on supports directly underneath with a clear perspex or plastic sheet sat around the hull with water textures and stuff paint / added on top to create the sea - is that a silly idea? It depends... I would waterline a ship hull if depicting her at anchor or at very slow speed in a flat calm sea. For rougher seas I leave them full hull and can cut a hole in the sea base for the hull and fill the gaps with cotton wool / sea foam, Chris Flodberg style. Don't think it is a silly idea and pretty sure I have seen similar attempted before either here or on other boards. Some lads have achieved great results with clear poured resin too. Depicting either full hulls underwater or even submerged submarines. But then resin is awkward and has issues with curing temperatures melting the models and all that. Plus you need lots and lots of it for a ship of any size. I've never tried it myself to be honest. Maybe some day. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandsaw Steve Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 I can’t post short cuts and links at the moment because I don’t know how to using this phone but I would also humbly recommend looking in Britmodeller at my build of ‘HMAS AE2’ and ‘RMS Carpathia’. I made a sea-scape for both of them and documented how I did it in both cases. Neither Sea-scape was anything like as good as a ‘Flodberg’ effort but I was happy with them. I was effectively a beginner when I made these because these are the only two I’ve ever made. I hope you find something of use in those threads. Stevr 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johndon Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 Very effective water can be made using tin foil and PVA glue, do a search on YouTube for 'How to Make a Realistic Ocean Diorama Base' for a video by scale-a-ton. Whilst not a ship model, I've used the method on Thunderbird 2 diorama and will definitely use it when I do my next ship... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill1974 Posted January 21 Author Share Posted January 21 4 hours ago, Bandsaw Steve said: humbly recommend looking in Britmodeller at my build of ‘HMAS AE2’ and ‘RMS Carpathia’ Thanks, I had already read through your submarine build and was super impressed. Still digesting and taking it in and will definately read through several more times to soak it all in. Top work on the sub and the base 👍 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan P Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 20 hours ago, Bill1974 said: as far as I can gather modellers are cutting the bottom section of the hulls to sit flat on a base - am I right in assuming that? Depends on the effect you're trying to achieve, I used the same Tamiya Fletcher you have pictured to do a stormy scene, so I left it full hull. This base is made from polystyrene sheet and clear bathroom sealant All my other ship builds I either cut the hull to the waterline or use a more modern kit (eg. Trumpeter) which offers both options: My 'standard' base is polystyrene block and painted with acrylic paint with a very versatile 'topping' of acrylic Gloss Heavy Gel, which you can get from any art supplier. I use blue kitchen towel and white kleenex tissues or just plain white toilet roll soaked in white glue to do the wave crests and wakes. Not as artistic as the solutions linked above, but simple and effective enough! This calm sea is made from plaster of Paris, painted with acrylic paints and finished sea effects as above. I like using polystyrene as a base because you can a create rolling wave surface just by flattening it at intervals with a rolling pin. You can use various media like polyfilla or artist's modelling medium to make more complex wave patterns by waiting until it's partially dried then pressing crinkled aluminium foil into it. Or just use a spatula or a tongue depressor to carve waves and wake shapes in the medium. I would encourage you to just experiment with different techniques until you find one that works for you 👍 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robgizlu Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 Hi Bill - late to the party but I agree with all of the above hints and advice. When I first came to ship modelling I was mesmerized by the work of Kostas Katseas and Chris Flodberg. Chris Flodberg is increibly generous in his advice and here's the key link: http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=155661 I studied it and continue to do so. Kostas Katseas is a professional modeller presumably earning a living and never publishes information about his methods but in his early work he very definitely favoured Resin as a sea medium. It's notoriously difficult and fickle to work with - it is comparatively easy to produce a flat shiney sea but I fell considerably harder to produce anything more complicated. FWIW here's my one attempt: It was awkward and put me off. In contrast using Chris Flodbergs techniques, here's some examples; All of these models are full hull "planted" into styrene. There are pros and cons to full hull versus "Waterline" I believe the name of the Korean modeller mentioned above is Won-hui Lee who produces phenomenal results along the lines you are seeking - you can check his work out on Model Warships and elsewhere. He has done severall "underwater" sub pieces using clear resin - I remain in awe but DO NOT under-estimate the difficulty. Bubbles within the resin and exothermic heating causing distortion are all well recognised issues. As to your products - personally I use AK foam and @beefy66, and @Courageous have acheived excellent results with the AK water gel. I haven't used this. Nearly each of my builds all here - use slightly different variations on Flodberg; check them out if you wish and for me part of the joy of sea modeeling is striving to get realistic seascapes. Hope this all adds to an intro for you. Before committing to the 1/350 kits it might be worth experimenting on something a little cheaper. Lastly I think @Bandsaw Steve mentioned "Kelvin wake pattern". Not all vessels display this, there's probably an element connected with speed but here's a useful diagram courtesy of (if I recall correctly) @foeth Keep us posted ! Cheers Rob 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killingholme Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 (edited) I'd echo the words of others who recommend studying how ships behave at sea. I've seen some otherwise very accomplished models ruined by basic errors. The one that made me chuckle was someone who did a model of a destroyer depicted during a heavy turn that was superb, but he'd accidentally depicted the ship heeling IN to the turn rather out from it! And for what it's worth, if you're doing a ship at anchor or in a very light sea, there's a lot to be said for the dead simple technique of using textured watercolour paper, paint and clear varnish method! Only costs about 50p in materials if you make a mess of it! https://www.keymodelworld.com/article/realistic-seascapes Edited January 22 by Killingholme 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 7 minutes ago, Killingholme said: And for what it's worth, if you're doing a ship at anchor or in a very light sea, there's a lot to be said for the dead simple technique of using textured watercolour paper, paint and clear varnish method! Only costs about 50p in materials if you make a mess of it! https://www.keymodelworld.com/article/realistic-seascapes the link unfortunately says "This is a premium article and requires an active Key Model World subscription" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foeth Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 The Kelvin wake is indeed of help for the wave pattern of a ship, and is well visible if the weather conditions aren't too harsh... This is a minor calculation I performed of Hood's wake pattern at 24 knots showing the undulating crests and troughs of the diverging waves really well. This diverging pattern is the one most often not captured well by most modelers who would simply add a constant wave height. The science behind it is well over a century old, but our capacity to calculate this pattern is quite recent (around the 90s)... Note how the "white froth" of the breaking wave is transported along the hull... lots of artistic freedom though! Nothing beats a good photograph like this one, but the calculated pattern helps interpretation (that is, it helps me!). I really like the water---as well as the models that are so very fine---made by the Flemish Master Werner de Keersmaecker: http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery/users/Werner-De-keersmaecker/user-index.html 4 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circloy Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 The water effect on that sub is superb. I can almost feel the gale as it grabs hold of the sea draining from the bow and stirs up those wave tops. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Courageous Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 If a ship is going to be modelled in a rough sea, it's best to use a full hull as the trough of the sea will be below the waterline. The best explanation I have of ships wave patterns I found here: wave pattern Stuart 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill1974 Posted January 27 Author Share Posted January 27 Thanks for everyone's help so far, it has been quiet a journey reading all the articles / websites and stuff that led me elsewhere, anywho - thankyou. I have been wondering where to find some more specific photos of a British tribal class and a us fletcher class destroyers under full steam. I have some photos of these two ships generally but nothing that gives me an idea of the wake pattern and such that would give me a proper pushing the right direction. I have a few extra bits and bobs on order for these two ships, upgrade kits and such and really want to launch myself into a diorama of each depth charging subs in rough seas at full speed, battle of the sub Vs destroyer. Does anyone have suggestions of where to find such photos of Fletcher / Tribale class destroyers at full throttle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill1974 Posted January 28 Author Share Posted January 28 On 23/01/2024 at 19:09, Courageous said: If a ship is going to be modelled in a rough sea, it's best to use a full hull as the trough of the sea will be below the waterline. The best explanation I have of ships wave patterns I found here: wave pattern Stuart @Courageous I have been reading that link for several hours over and over getting it into my head (it's been quiet the squeeze) and drawing up a plan for the outcome, below (so far) I have come upto a snag.... Or at least my understanding is off. The table showing the length of the divergent waves, (below) indicate that the length of the divergent wave for my destroyers travelling at 35 knots is an incredible 186.8424m! Have I missed something as the picture of the kelvine wave (below) does not tally with such huge distances??? Or should I plan to lower the speed of the ship to suit the kelvine wave pattern or indeed should I be cutting the size as second pic... So as to reduce what 'in scale' can be shown??? Thus, the transverse wave lengths for a given ship speed are: Speed Wave Length 5 kts 13 feet 10 kts 50 feet 15 kts 113 feet 20 kts 200 feet 25 kts 313 feet 30 kts 450 feet 35 kts 613 feet What actually happens (above) What I'm going to be able to model to scale (above) Does any of this make sense to anyone? Is one of my suppositions correct or am I way off? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill1974 Posted January 28 Author Share Posted January 28 Essentially one of two pics... https://i.imgur.com/jbd34ne.gifv Or Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan P Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 7 hours ago, Bill1974 said: What I'm going to be able to model to scale (above) Yes, that's fair to me. Some of the examples linked in this thread show more of the wake and waves, but look how large the base is compared to the ship. If you're building a smaller base, you'll have far less of the wave pattern to model, especially if the ship is running at speed 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foeth Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 If your wave length estimate > ship length you're slowly moving into a different wave regime, so you may want to model more like: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/search?query=argonaut+steaming&pageSize=&media-records=records-with-media 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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