dov Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 Hallo My basic question is concerned to the surface of the P-47. We know, that two basic options are there. Olive Drap or metal. To the metal option: Are there parts of the wings like on the P-51 which are covered with lacquer? Is the wing surface realy pure metal or are some parts grinded and filled with puty and again grinded to get a lacquer surface? If it is so, does anyone have a drawing according to it? Thanks in forward! Happy modelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tbolt Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 No, I haven't come across any information, documents or photos, to show it's anything other than a standard wing. It's just riveted and spot welded alclad. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 Tbolt is correct, @dov Not having a laminar flow wing like the Mustang, which had the forward 2/3 of its wing puttied,, filled with surfacer, sanded, and then painted to preserve the smoothness of the surface, the P-47 did not need any surface treatment of its wings, camouflaged or bare metal. It already had a very efficient airfoil, IIRC, and the brute power of the P&W R-2800 and paddle blade prop did the rest! Mike 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dov Posted January 17 Author Share Posted January 17 Hallo Now, I am looking for confirmed payloads of these aircraft: D- Version razorback from Tamiya as Kansas Tornado II D-Version bubble top from Tamiya as Miss Fire D-Version bubble top MiniArt as No Guts No Glory M-Version bubble top from Tamiya as Josephine My Flying Machine Maybe someone can help. Happy modelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozothenutter Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 12 minutes ago, dov said: Hallo Now, I am looking for confirmed payloads of these aircraft: D- Version razorback from Tamiya as Kansas Tornado II D-Version bubble top from Tamiya as Miss Fire D-Version bubble top MiniArt as No Guts No Glory M-Version bubble top from Tamiya as Josephine My Flying Machine Maybe someone can help. Happy modelling Wouldn't that depend on the mission? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Work In Progress Posted January 17 Share Posted January 17 43 minutes ago, dov said: Hallo Now, I am looking for confirmed payloads of these aircraft: D- Version razorback from Tamiya as Kansas Tornado II D-Version bubble top from Tamiya as Miss Fire D-Version bubble top MiniArt as No Guts No Glory M-Version bubble top from Tamiya as Josephine My Flying Machine This is not a meaningful question unless you specify a particular date or mission or campaign 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dov Posted January 17 Author Share Posted January 17 Oh, I know what you mean. But I would be not so specific, since the decals with a certain amount of kills gives me an unknown date anyway. For my understanding: All aircraft were used in ground operation also as fighters only. The only weapon I omitt are the Bazokas. Just seeking for any foto or information of any payload to any time! Is this more now more precise? I do not have any ops record. Happy modelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dov Posted January 18 Author Share Posted January 18 Hallo The color of the external fuel tanks: Are they in NG or pure mtal? Or does it not matter, both options possible? Happy modelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Walter E Kurtz Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 On 17/01/2024 at 10:50, dov said: D-Version bubble top from Tamiya as Miss Fire I did a model of this one some months back in 1:32. As part of the research i found these pics.. 1. Drop tank finishes and colours. Packing cases at RAF Halesworth, Suffolk , England 1944 56th FG Razorbacks in the background! Halesworth again.. 56th FG - Drop tanks ready to be used? Miss Fire P-47-D - Note Pylons on wings! Late 1944. Hope these help in some small way ? As another user has pointed out.. the load configuration was set up according to the mission profile. Escort duties all Tanks. Near location ground attack possibly ordnance ONLY and further afiled a mix of tanks and ordnance.. Regards, Andy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Walter E Kurtz Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 Further to my earlier post Dov. You might find some relevant pics for the aircraft you've mentioned from this website. It's searchable too.. Forgive me for not searching on your behalf. Also you can find 1000s of pics that would give you additional information enabling you to make an informed and viable choice of loads.. American Air Museum https://www.americanairmuseum.com/ Regards, Andy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tempestfan Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 1 hour ago, Col Walter E Kurtz said: I did a model of this one some months back in 1:32. As part of the research i found these pics.. 1. Drop tank finishes and colours. Packing cases at RAF Halesworth, Suffolk , England 1944 56th FG Razorbacks in the background! Those are "paper" tanks, right? So they would be painted anyway I guess. The ones in the background look decidedly more silver, but then the one being lifted (and the two just at the right of the picture) look a bit darker than the piled ones. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Walter E Kurtz Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 11 minutes ago, tempestfan said: Those are "paper" tanks, right? So they would be painted anyway I guess. The ones in the background look decidedly more silver, but then the one being lifted (and the two just at the right of the picture) look a bit darker than the piled ones. Maybe... but the IWM has an example of 108 Gallon Compressed Paper tank that looks quite 'silver' in finish. Sprayed silver then coated in aircraft 'dope' maybe? I'm not an expert on drop tanks. The colour pic I posted is original i.e. not digitally 'coloured'. Differences in colour could well be due to the age of the negative? storage etc etc.. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30000175 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Walter E Kurtz Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 26 minutes ago, tempestfan said: Those are "paper" tanks, right? So they would be painted anyway I guess. The ones in the background look decidedly more silver, but then the one being lifted (and the two just at the right of the picture) look a bit darker than the piled ones Having had a quick search again.. Yes i think they are probably 110 Gallon 'Pape'r tanks in the foreground.. Cheers. Regards, Andy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbody Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 From my photo files: Chris 6 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Walter E Kurtz Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 14 hours ago, dogsbody said: From my photo files: Chris Fantastic Chris. that's really interesting info. Regards, Andt 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMG Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 On 17/01/2024 at 23:50, dov said: Hallo Now, I am looking for confirmed payloads of these aircraft: D- Version razorback from Tamiya as Kansas Tornado II D-Version bubble top from Tamiya as Miss Fire D-Version bubble top MiniArt as No Guts No Glory M-Version bubble top from Tamiya as Josephine My Flying Machine Maybe someone can help. Happy modelling Further to some of the answers above you need to know the date you are intending to Model your Jug, especially the Razorbacks. I started to research this question just for the 8th Airforce and have gone done a big rabbit hole but have come up with the following both in photos and references for drop tanks. I'm going to ignore here the 200gal ferry tank used July & Aug 43 75-gal steel belly tank used from Aug43 to about Dec 43 on the Jug. This tank sourced from the US. Tank painted grey. (neutral grey?) 108-gal steel tank used from Sept 43 but in very short supply. UK sourced. At this time Paper 108-gallon tanks started being manufacture in the UK. These were silver doped. From Nov 43 paper 108 gal tanks started to arrive in numbers, allowing longer range operations for the more established P47 groups 4th, 56th, 78th, 353rd. The 352nd 355th, 356th & 359th were still getting into their stride at this point. Later on, US sourced 108 metal tanks were used as well and seem to be preferred by some groups. Because there was limited ground clearance with the 108's slung on the belly a design for a Flat tank of 150 gal was instigated. This was UK manufactured and first used in Feb 44 by the 56th. Later US manufactured versions arrived. They are slightly different as came be seen in colour photos of both types on the wing pilons of one aircraft of the 56th fighter group. Tanks painted grey same as all the other metal tanks. Wing pilons became available from March 44 and many older airframes were retrofitted with them. This corresponded to the D14 D15 versions from the factory. which were arriving at this time. When the D25 arrived, it had 100gal more internal fuel. Thus, you can see in photos Razorbacks and bubble tops lined up for take-off with different drop-tanks. As the war progressed all the different combination of 108 and 150 can be seen in photos, including a 108 on the belly with two 150s on the wings, and a 150 on the belly with two 108s on the wing. It was common to see bubbletops with 2 108s and the razorbacks with 2 150's on the same mission. The 200 Gallon flat tank was not designed until dec 44 and used from Jan45 by the 56th FG only. It was of UK manufacture. The aim was to use the 200-belly tank only and remove the wing pilons to improve performance. Photos exist of 200 gal tanks on the wing pilons of 56th Jugs The razorback made up the vast bulk of the P47 fleet until August or even September of 44. Older airframes were continuously modified, with new Engines, propellors and wing pilons etc. From looking at all the kits we have, none of the Kit manufacturers have come anywhere close to getting the drop tanks correct. The 150 flats and 108 steel tanks are missing altogether and the flat tanks they include look like the 200 which is wrong for 95% of all the Jug kits even a certain brand new D25. I'm sure I've missed something, so feel free to critique. And don't forget this is just for the 8th Airforce Jugs. Still looking at the nineth Airforce. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dov Posted January 20 Author Share Posted January 20 Wow, this is of very fundamental help! Not known a piece of the tank storry! So I will check it once more! The paper tanks are now after reading your news the most proper ones. Well, so far now in the morning. In a few days after checking all, I will answer in detail! Happy modelling 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffrey Sinclair Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 Britain starts reporting drop tank production in December 1943, with 5,943 paper and 3,095 metal 90 imperial gallon tanks being made for the P-47. As of January 1944 the British report building (imperial gallons) 90 gallon metal and paper tanks for P-47 and planning to built a 150 gallon metal one. By July the 90 gallon had become 108 US gallon for P-47 and P-51 and the 150 gallon was in fact US gallons for the P-47. Roger Freeman, Mighty Eighth War Manual, Fighter external tanks, US Gallons nominal/actual, drop tanks available to the 8th Air Force 75/84, Steel, US, P-47 and P-51 originally for P-39, reserved for P-51 in March 1944 108/108, Steel, UK, P-47, being made in 1943. 108/108, Paper, UK, P-47 and P-51, originally for Hurricanes first used September 1943 110/110, Steel, US P-51, intended for P-47 use. 150/165, Steel, US, P-47, "flat" tank first used February 1944 150/165, Steel, UK, P-47, "flat" tank first received in March 1944 165/165, Steel, US, P-38, ferry tank, unpressurised, used up to 20,000 feet. 200/205, Steel, US, P-47, arrived November/December 1944. (Not ferry tank as previously reported) 200/215, Steel, UK, P-47. Britain reports first production in March 1945. Plus the 200 gallon ferry tanks used for a time in 1943. P-47D-15-RE (Oct-43) and P-47D-15-RA (Nov-43) introduced the wing pylons. P-47D-25-RE (Apr-44) and P-47D-26-RA (May-44) upgraded internal fuel from 305 to 375 gallons and introduced the cut down rear fuselage. Add a couple of months before the first arrivals in Britain. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dov Posted January 20 Author Share Posted January 20 Hallo Here is the timeline according to the information on my decals. What I know for sure is, that the Josephine will get the 150 gallon flat tank on the centerline. This tank is in the kit. All will get the wing pylon. D versions and the M version. The C version Lollapoluza with pilot Woodrow W. Sooman from May 1943 has the ferry tank only. The payload of the D versions can be the 108 gallon paper tank for the wing pylons I have. Is this correct? Or should I use also bombs? Happy modelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dov Posted January 20 Author Share Posted January 20 Hallo Here the advantage from MiniArt with better payloads. The 200 gallon tank is also there. So I could use the 200 gallon tank for Josephine! Happy modelling 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck1945 Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 The 56 FG mainly flew escort missions so tanks, not bombs were the normal load. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMG Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 The MiniArt Kit has the 2 most used drop tanks missing. The 150 flat tank, and the 108-steel tank. Given ONLY the 56th used the 200-gal tank from Jan 45 onwards, it is only appropriate for the P47M and any late D's the 56th used to cover for the M's Engine issues. I guess you can make the metal 108's out of the paper versions in the Kits as they were dimensionally similar but looked different. The Kit manufactures have missed a trick here. The 8th Airforce Jugs did some bombing, but as bomber escort was their thing, we are yet to get the proper drop tanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMG Posted January 20 Share Posted January 20 21 hours ago, PeterMG said: ec 12 hours ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said: Britain starts reporting drop tank production in December 1943, with 5,943 paper and 3,095 metal 90 imperial gallon tanks being made for the P-47. As of January 1944 the British report building (imperial gallons) 90 gallon metal and paper tanks for P-47 and planning to built a 150 gallon metal one. By July the 90 gallon had become 108 US gallon for P-47 and P-51 and the 150 gallon was in fact US gallons for the P-47. Roger Freeman, Mighty Eighth War Manual, Fighter external tanks, US Gallons nominal/actual, drop tanks available to the 8th Air Force 75/84, Steel, US, P-47 and P-51 originally for P-39, reserved for P-51 in March 1944 108/108, Steel, UK, P-47, being made in 1943. 108/108, Paper, UK, P-47 and P-51, originally for Hurricanes first used September 1943 110/110, Steel, US P-51, intended for P-47 use. 150/165, Steel, US, P-47, "flat" tank first used February 1944 150/165, Steel, UK, P-47, "flat" tank first received in March 1944 165/165, Steel, US, P-38, ferry tank, unpressurised, used up to 20,000 feet. 200/205, Steel, US, P-47, arrived November/December 1944. (Not ferry tank as previously reported) 200/215, Steel, UK, P-47. Britain reports first production in March 1945. Plus the 200 gallon ferry tanks used for a time in 1943. P-47D-15-RE (Oct-43) and P-47D-15-RA (Nov-43) introduced the wing pylons. P-47D-25-RE (Apr-44) and P-47D-26-RA (May-44) upgraded internal fuel from 305 to 375 gallons and introduced the cut down rear fuselage. Add a couple of months before the first arrivals in Britain. One of the questions always asked was why the thunderbolt didn't carry wing tanks earlier. You say the P-47D-15-RE (Oct-43) and P-47D-15-RA (Nov-43) introduced the wing pylons, and this is correct, yet the timings don't seem to add up with any photos of these versions and reading the war diary of the 56th it was April before they carried wing tanks, this after their move to Boxed. Surprisingly some early P47C and Early Ds were still being used, albeit they had been bought up to current standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMG Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 On 19/01/2024 at 08:26, tempestfan said: Those are "paper" tanks, right? So they would be painted anyway I guess. The ones in the background look decidedly more silver, but then the one being lifted (and the two just at the right of the picture) look a bit darker than the piled ones. The tanks in the foreground are the steel tanks, and of UK manufacture. The silver tanks are the paper tanks finished in silver dope. The steel tanks were used by Mustangs and Jugs of the 8th far more than is appreciated. No kit manufacturer gives us the steel tanks, and as you can see, they are different enough to warrant being in the kits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffrey Sinclair Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 USAAF Delivery Logs file ADT-15 starting page 120. Republic Farmingdale -RE identifier (Easy to assume RE = Evansville) Acceptances 42-75215/75614 P-47D-11-RE, 400 built, September and October 1943 42-75615/75864 P-47D-15-RE, 250 built, October and November 1943 42-75865/76118 P-47D-16-RE, 254 built, November and December 1943 (only 5 accepted in December) 42-76119/76364 P-47D-15-RE, 246 built, November (4 accepted on the 30th) 1943 to January 1944 (only 2 accepted in January) USAAF Delivery Logs file ADT-16 starting page 50. Republic Evansville -RA identifier Acceptances 42-22864/23113 P-47D-11-RA, 250 built, October and November 1943 42-23114/23142 P-47D-16-RA, 29 built, November 1943 (42-23120 washout) 42-23143/23299 P-47D-15-RA, 157 built, November and December 1943 43-25254/25440 P-47D-20-RA, 187 built, December 1943 and January 1944. The -16 models appearing where they do makes for some interesting contradictions or ambiguities in references, as far as I know the model had the wing pylons, but it can be described as a D-11 (not a D-15) with provision for 100/150 fuel. It also means the Evansville line introduced the wing pylons with the D-16 or else the model was actually D-11 based, while the D-16 from Farmingdale was D-15 based. Looks like all 29 P-47D-16-RA stayed in the US, not so the P-47D-16-RE. I do not have a full 8th AF loss list for P-47, but, in serial order a list from a web site, the second date is from the aircraft cards, all had been exported. 06-Mar-44 42-75635 362nd salvaged 25 Mar 44 22-Feb-44 42-75647 353rd lost 22 Feb 44 22-Feb-44 42-75653 353rd lost 22 Feb 44 21-Jan-44 42-75658 56th lost Jan 44? 08-Mar-44 42-75672 362nd lost 8 Mar 44 08-Mar-44 42-75697 56th lost 8 Mar 44 22-Feb-44 42-75814 361st lost 22 Feb 44 04-Mar-44 42-75850 353rd lost 4 Mar 44 27-Mar-44 42-76249 56th lost 27 Mar 44 As noted it was taking around 2 months from factory to Britain, the first P-47D-15-RE reported departing US mid November 1943, then comes issue to combat units, then comes drop tank availability. Not the P-47 but to point out not even the US always had the latest quickly. P-51B production ended in April 1944, P-51C in September, while P-51D production ran from February 1944 to August 1945. 15th Air Force P-51 strength in units, P-51B \\ C \\ D numbers 29-Apr-44 \\ 72 \\ 0 \\ 0 3-Jun-44 \\ 125 \\ 9 \\ 0 24-Jun-44 \\ 166 \\ 66 \\ 53 (all groups now have a mix of B, C and D) 1-Jul-44 \\ 125 \\ 51 \\ 96 27-Jul-44 \\ 113 \\ 124 \\ 115 2-Sep-44 \\ 124 \\ 150 \\ 95 30-Sep-44 \\ 111 \\ 139 \\ 105 21-Oct-44 \\ 93 \\ 133 \\ 106 20-Nov-44 \\ 85 \\ 121 \\ 162 10-Dec-44 \\ 73 \\ 108 \\ 179 10-Jan-45 \\ 65 \\ 99 \\ 210 10-Feb-45 \\ 64 \\ 94 \\ 207 10-Mar-45 \\ 58 \\ 82 \\ 221 31-Mar-45 \\ 52 \\ 74 \\ 214 30-Apr-45 \\ 46 \\ 62 \\ 251 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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