Varnishing before or after applying decals?

[dov]

Hallo

 

@Jon Bryon, I think to have an answer.

 

When I worked on WW1 aircraft and had big insignia decals, most of them got loose! (today I spray them!) On the convex surface, the paper did not follow the surface but formed a transverse chord. This is the consequence of the softener liquid. The softener!

Also if we talk about a rough surface of a flat paint. The use of softener will create caves!  Using softener will try to stretch the decal film over any peaks!

• With softener we create caves, which then represent the unwanted silvering effect.
• With the setting solution we will be able to attach the film to all depths of the surface and all slopes of the surface! 
• And so prevent silvering...the caves with air!

This is my explanation.

This is in complete contrast to what has been preached in the model building world for decades.

And all happened because of an accident!

Just interesting!

Happy modelling

[dov]

My analysis on this:

 

@Jon Bryon, you refer to only one specific product. Mr Mark Setter (not the Neo version)

This limitates your procedure to one product. Which even may not be available for everyone!

What occures with the Neo Setter? Does it not work?

What occures with Microsol Setting solution?

What occures with the other Setting products, if used?

Before letting anyone else on the track of your marvelous procedure, you should consider this question.

You could also put it this way: Your process is currently not ready for series production.

Or in Flying Terms: You fly a prototyp, the a/c is far from operative!

So, high risk, if you are not an expert!

 

Happy modelling

[ScheF15]

On 5/15/2023 at 8:53 AM, RidgeRunner said:

Here you go https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/forum/68-tools-amp-tips/

 Thanks @RidgeRunner, found it! It appears I should have scrolled further downward, ahem.

[Jon Bryon]

18 minutes ago, dov said:

My analysis on this:

 

@Jon Bryon, you refer to only one specific product. Mr Mark Setter (not the Neo version)

This limitates your procedure to one product. Which even may not be available for everyone!

What occures with the Neo Setter? Does it not work?

What occures with Microsol Setting solution?

What occures with the other Setting products, if used?

Before letting anyone else on the track of your marvelous procedure, you should consider this question.

You could also put it this way: Your process is currently not ready for series production.

Or in Flying Terms: You fly a prototyp, the a/c is far from operative!

So, high risk, if you are not an expert!

 

Happy modelling

 

 I also use Microsol, Daco Red, UMP Strong, UMP Extra Strong and Mr Mark Softer (again, not the Neo version) as needed. This is to aid conformation with gross surface features, such as panel lines, rather than anything to do with silvering.

 

But generally I find the Mr Mark Setter (MMS) to be quite powerful. Here is a 1/48 Airfix Walrus instrument panel with the kit decal. The decal was just left in a puddle of (MMS) and left alone directly on the paint and no other products applied. There is no silvering despite the matt black paint and it conforms very well to all the raised detail. Just a shame I didn't get the alignment quite right 🤪

 

 

Jon

[dov]

How do you position them?

Rokets? Bands on them in color or dashes, USAF and Russian?

Pylons?

Stencils on surfaces, which you can not keep horizomtal for hours? In between engines of Su.27?

Hmmm..

Happy modelling

 

[Jon Bryon]

19 minutes ago, dov said:

How do you position them?

Rokets? Bands on them in color or dashes, USAF and Russian?

Pylons?

Stencils on surfaces, which you can not keep horizomtal for hours? In between engines of Su.27?

Hmmm..

Happy modelling

 

 

I always apply decals to a horizontal surface (or as close as I can):

 

 

I will paint all bands. 

 

I find the decals are usually pretty static and don't move about.

 

Jon

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

I shot a quick video last night of a quick dark matt enamel airbrushing, quick buff with Infini sponge and random old decals from the spares box. No silvering, as usual.

 

I'll stitch the bits together tonight and post it up.

[ckw]

10 hours ago, Jon Bryon said:

Below are examples of decals applied directly to paint with no gloss or polishing (MRP, Mr Color, Hataka lacquers, Akan lacquers).

In my experience lacquer based matt paints provide a smoother surface than say enamel or water based acrylics. As has already been pointed out, it is not glossy paint which avoids silvering, it is the smoothness of the paint. Different paints have different properties once dried - some can feel like sandpaper, others like silk. In addition the painting technique has a big impact on the surface finish. It is possible to spray a gloss paint and end up with a rough surface.

 

It is true that a slightly rough matt finish can be smoothed out somewhat with a gloss varnish or Future - but if applied badly, this can make things worse. And it is unlikely you will make anything better by applying varnish over a badly affixed decal! All this will do is set the problem in stone.

 

There are so many variables - the type of paint used, the manufacturer - even the particular pigments; the thinner and thinning ratio; the method of application (brushing or spraying technique); the nature of the decals (some are more forgiving than others); setting solutions used. Any given recommendation may be applicable to that one person's combination of materials and methods so may not work for you.

 

What you need is a smooth surface for the decal, and there are numerous ways to achieve this. Personally I try to use paints that I know through experience will give a smooth finish - Colourcoats and Xtracolor enamels by choice. Failing that I will opt for either a light fine grade sanding or a coat of future ... possibly both.

 

Cheers

 

Colin

 

 

 

 

[Space Ranger]

On 5/15/2023 at 7:11 AM, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

I'm a voice of dessent. There's no requirement to apply gloss varning before decals. The surface needs to be mechanically smooth, not glossy. You'll get a better result from applying decals to matt paint which has been lightly buffed with a 2500grit and 4000grit sanding sponge than you will from applying to a gloss finish which has not been smoothed. Try it on a paint mule using spare decals - there are big advantages to not applying excess layers to the model, and less risk from fewer coats.

 

I agree completely. Another disadvantage of gloss coats is that they cause a color shift in the underlying paint.

[Bandsaw Steve]

Well I have learned a lot from this discussion. Perhaps my age-old method of ‘apply some gloss varnish and add decal’ method is up for review.
 

This is how we learn I suppose! 👍

[dov]

@Jon Bryon, I worked as you told me.

With setting fluid from Microscale.

Oh wonder, it worked quite well. On my first project after discussion, on the Su-34 in 1/48.

And now again on my Bf-109 Emil from Wingsy.

I am well astonished.

The area where the decal position is, gets SET with a brush, and after placing, water is soaked and the decal corroect possioned.

Than, SET again all over.

That's it.

Workes well.

Thank you!

Happy modelling

[Jon Bryon]

On 6/7/2023 at 12:05 PM, dov said:

@Jon Bryon, I worked as you told me.

With setting fluid from Microscale.

Oh wonder, it worked quite well. On my first project after discussion, on the Su-34 in 1/48.

And now again on my Bf-109 Emil from Wingsy.

I am well astonished.

The area where the decal position is, gets SET with a brush, and after placing, water is soaked and the decal corroect possioned.

Than, SET again all over.

That's it.

Workes well.

Thank you!

Happy modelling

 

Here's a decal I applied about four hours ago. It's from Furball and printed by Cartograf. The model is in 1/48 so the national insignia is about 16mm long.

 

Decal applied to matt paint which had been rendered with matt oil paint. No clear coat.

 

Decal left in a small puddle of Mr Mark Setter (not the Neo version). 

 

Decal not touched - no removal of excess Setter, no use of a cotton bud or paper towel or brush. Just left floating in the Setter.

 

No solvents.

 

This is what it's done:

 

 

Jon

[CFster]

Looks great! I just did one a few minutes ago too. Thick Tamiya decals directly on Mr. Color paint. Used Micro Sol which laid it down but Mark Fit Strong made the panel lines show through. Took a couple applications. This is without any varnish on top. I think it will look good with some gloss to hide the carrier film and for the wash then matte to finish it off. 
 

 

 

 

[Clio182]

Knowledge is non silvering... Or something like that.

 

Good reading.

[Bandsaw Steve]

Once the decal has settled on the surface and adhered do you just let the excess setting solution dry off or do you wick it away at that point?

 

 

[CFster]

25 minutes ago, Bandsaw Steve said:

Once the decal has settled on the surface and adhered do you just let the excess setting solution dry off or do you wick it away at that point?

 

 

Let the setting solution evaporate. 

[dov]

Yes, and if the panel lines below the decal are not shown on the decal, so I just put setting soulution once more on the decal. In one case three times, and it worked.

Happy modelling 

[spook701]

Hello there,

I am not an aircraft person, so please excuse this question but i cannot seem to find an answer so far ..

 

I am into military vehicles, which are "normally" matt finished..

 

So say i have sprayed a 60/40 mix of tamiya matt paint / thinner onto a jeep...   Would it pay to spray a gloss coat, then apply decals and then spray with a matt over the top ?

Have never glossed / matted a vehicle before..

So your guidance would be most helpful.

Regards

Paul

[Smithfire42]

I too, have read this topic with great interest as a returee.

20 years ago I used to prime/matt colour/ gloss varnish/apply decal/microsol/semigloss varnish.

Although this still applies to how many modelers, I see there's still no RIGHT way to do it. I think what I've gleaned from reading this thread is that I'll probably have to experiment with the set up that I use to get the best results for me. I guess if I could find a walk through of someone building a similar kit to myself, I could just mimic them by purchasing the same brand paint/decal solutions and applying them in the exact same way. The thing NOT to do is experiment with techniques on the model you've just spent 150 hours on, only to see it entombed in a amorphous mass of sticky, undulating goo. Obviously I may be completely wrong.

 

Clive

[Ratch]

I always gloss before applying decals because it prevents silvering. After the decals the appropriate varnish can be applied for the desired finish.

[spook701]

So from what i can gleam...

If my model is matt finish,

I can gloss varnish

Apply decals

Matt varnish

And that will be a MATT  finish, with no hint of the gloss showing ? 

[Smithfire42]

Yep....should be. 

[CFster]

6 hours ago, Ratch said:

I always gloss before applying decals because it prevents silvering. After the decals the appropriate varnish can be applied for the desired finish.

 

There’s no proof gloss before decals prevents silvering. 

[Mark Harmsworth]

50 minutes ago, CFster said:

There’s no proof gloss before decals prevents silvering. 

Splendid. I've got my tub of popcorn and a comfy chair ready. Time to relax and watch the fun.

[Ratch]

1 hour ago, CFster said:

 

There’s no proof gloss before decals prevents silvering. 

Really! Carry on doing what you're doing then.