Varnishing before or after applying decals?

[ScheF15]

Hi fellow modellers,

 

I am about to finish my second kit since taking up the hobby again after a hiatus of more than 30 years, and now I am faced with a conundrum: should I varnish the aircraft before or after applying the decals? In my heyday I used enamel paints only and never considered varnishing the kits, but sometimes the decals faded terribly. Since I am back to the bench I use new stuff (for me) like acryl paints and decal softener. I'd say varnishing the kit after applying decals will result in a nice overall look, but will the decals not be damaged, resulting in cracks or so?

 

Thanks in advance,

Rob

[Sabrejet]

Gloss prior to applying decals, then (depending on finish), gloss or matt afterwards.

[dov]

Hallo

When I finish the main paint job I use a 3600 grind to make the surface more smooth. Borders or edges of colors, or any accident when spraying. Than I use GX 112 from Gunze Mr. Color to get a gloss surface. Then decaling.

Afterward  drying for 24 hours once again a gloss varnish. Afterward, depending on a/c and surface I use GX 113 for a smooth flat finish if required.

Happy modelling 

[Bandsaw Steve]

Hi. I agree with the comments above. Furthermore, applying model varnish over decals should be harmless to the decals and should actually protect them in the long term. 

[f111guru]

Hello, I would have to agree with all the above comments. Only thing I would add is at one time some kits came with dull or flat looking decals. Myself, I would coat the model with the luster of the decal. I did this because at one time I would gloss coat the model. Then overcoat with the finish coat. It would have a flat appearance where the open areas in the decal was used. This was only with kit decals. Had no issues with aftermarket decals. Just my thoughts. Gloss coat away as everyone here has mentioned.

 

All The Best,

Ron VanDerwarker

[Graham Boak]

Yes, but some aircraft - Luftwaffe for example but not only - have a gloss finish to the paint used for the markings and this can compare significantly to the duller camouflage.  And faded colours in the roundels were not unique to modelling: RAF upper wing roundels sometimes appear a lighter blue than the intended dark blue still seen on the fuselage, less exposed to direct sunlight.  The red appears to be less affected.  

[alt-92]

@Graham Boak true, but I'd suggest that is something for once you have more experience - not something I'd recommend a fresh returnee to mimic

 

[dov]

If you have more experience, you also may start to spray all sort of insignia as I do. Specially on 48 and 32 scale. Too large decals tend to brake after 10 years. My roundels at the Lancy for instance. Whenever possible I spray it.

Decals as I told you before are coated before and afterward by GX 112.

All other products I used before,  did not get the gloss appearance I wanted! With this product I get always a constant gloss finish. And with 114 a smooth flat one at the very end!

Happy modelling 

[Graham Boak]

5 hours ago, alt-92 said:

@Graham Boak true, but I'd suggest that is something for once you have more experience - not something I'd recommend a fresh returnee to mimic

 

A good point, but it need not take long before any new modeller, let alone a fresh returnee, realises that simple rules do not universally apply,  Forewarned is forearmed (well, potentially).

[RidgeRunner]

On 5/12/2023 at 12:40 PM, Sabrejet said:

Gloss prior to applying decals, then (depending on finish), gloss or matt afterwards.

@ScheF15 👍

 

you’ll find more advice within the paint and decalling sections in the forum too

 

Martin

[RidgeRunner]

22 hours ago, alt-92 said:

@Graham Boak true, but I'd suggest that is something for once you have more experience - not something I'd recommend a fresh returnee to mimic

 

Agreed. Like anything, when you start out you need useful and measured guidance. You learn over time but can get thrown in to doubt if faced with a lot of more complex technique too early.

[ScheF15]

22 hours ago, RidgeRunner said:

you’ll find more advice within the paint and decalling sections in the forum too

Thanks @RidgeRunner, I was looking for that particular section but couldn't find it.

And thanks to all responders! It's more than I had hoped for, and I think I have a plan of attack. I'll drop my experiences here in due time.

 

Cheers,

Rob

[RidgeRunner]

39 minutes ago, ScheF15 said:

Thanks @RidgeRunner, I was looking for that particular section but couldn't find it.

And thanks to all responders! It's more than I had hoped for, and I think I have a plan of attack. I'll drop my experiences here in due time.

 

Cheers,

Rob

Here you go https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/forum/68-tools-amp-tips/

[Jon Bryon]

I tend to apply decals directly to the paint without any clear coats in between and let decal softeners do their work. I usually then add the clear layer over the top to get the sheen I want. Clear coats rarely damage decals, although I did apply Gunze GX100 very heavily over some Academy decals a couple of years ago and they wrinkled - completely my fault.

 

Jon

[Bozothenutter]

Using Xtracolor gets rid of one layer of paint...😉

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

I'm a voice of dessent. There's no requirement to apply gloss varning before decals. The surface needs to be mechanically smooth, not glossy. You'll get a better result from applying decals to matt paint which has been lightly buffed with a 2500grit and 4000grit sanding sponge than you will from applying to a gloss finish which has not been smoothed. Try it on a paint mule using spare decals - there are big advantages to not applying excess layers to the model, and less risk from fewer coats.

 

[dov]

Hallo

Just to add my knowledge of 30 years of aircraft modelling:

 

Whenever you use a flat paint, you never can apply a decal on such a surface,  so that it looks fine. Ready to show your model on an exhibition. If you use a flat paint and grind it afterward to 3600 corn and higher, it does not make sense at all.

If you use a flat paint and afterward a gloss varnish for preparation of decals, this is nonsense too! The surface is not smooth! It is like a hill landscape.

 

When my paint job is finished before decaling, I prepare the surface. Since mostly I spray with gloss or semi gloss, so I use 3600 wet grinding to smooth the surface before applying a gloss varnish.

 

Or just the example of two posts above: When you use a varnish after decaling, so please work slowly. Apply one film, let it dry and next run of varnish. Do not soak decals! This is Nonsens!

 

I use generaly gloss paints whenever available for the paint job. Gloss, flat or semi gloss sutfaces I always establish with my varnish at the very last step of spraying after stencils and decals are applied.

 

The most awful paint job is the color olive drab. This is a flat paint. Here I spray insignia. Before spraying OD. This color can be improoved by mixing it by yourself from semi gloss paints!

 

Happy modelling 

[Jon Bryon]

27 minutes ago, dov said:

Hallo

Just to add my knowledge of 30 years of aircraft modelling:

 

Whenever you use a flat paint, you never can apply a decal on such a surface,  so that it looks fine. 

 

 

Old Revell decals applied directly to matt paint (1/48 Bo105 and silver at Telford):

 

 

Since discovering a gloss coat is not required, I'm generally happier 🙂

 

Jon

[dov]

To the post above:

 

This is a lucky result, once. This decal quality from Revell is not a standard at all!

 

Well, if you may work on 1/48 jets, like F-15, F-4, Su-27, or in 1/32 scale aircraft with complete stencil sets, not from the kit, aftermarket...you may understand my verdict!

I think it is not heöpful, confusong, or irritating for our new modeller friends to show him a once happened lucky result with somewhat!

 

I consider this way as countetproductive!

Think aboit it!

 

I tried to show a way which works always! A general basic of knowledge!

 

Happy modelling 

[Jon Bryon]

56 minutes ago, dov said:

To the post above:

 

This is a lucky result, once. This decal quality from Revell is not a standard at all!

 

Apparently I'm so lucky I should play the lottery 😄 Plenty more examples on my website...

 

Generally more variables increases the risk of something going wrong. I prefer to cut out the gloss and can't see why a beginner couldn't either. 

 

Jon

[dov]

Since I spoiled more than one model by silvering, therefore I learned.

After a big lot of trying, different products of varnishing etc. I found

this way as mentioned above as the sole safe way.

No matter which decal sheet you use!

 

Generally more variables increases the risk of something going wrong. Yes, It may happen.

Variables can become constants, if you choose the same procedure often.

The variable by itself are decals. Some are excellent, some are lausy.

With my way shown, I can get along with all sort of decals, if they do not fall apart by itself.

 

Tell me, @Jon Bryon, how do you actually work with decals? I have seen your website. Excellent!

Your method is new for me! Very new. I will try it & tell you.

On my Su-34 in 1/48. On weapons first only!

 

 

Happy modelling

[Noel Smith]

Under a Microscope a matte finish looks like a mountain range compared to a gloss that would resemble a level plain.

So your decal straight onto matte would be like it only touching down on the mountain peaks but not being able to settle in the valleys. Comparing the gloss to a flat plain the decal will have more flat surface area to adhere to. It is just logical.

A clear gloss over matte creates the levelling effect to apply  the decal to and a matte afterwards to finish.

[CFster]

Nothing wrong with using a gloss coat, but it’s not necessary. This is against conventional wisdom I know but it’s an old wives tale. You can get decals to lay down on sandpaper if you apply them properly - without silvering. You need to ask yourself why decals can go over panel panel lines and rivets without silvering if they need an absolutely smooth surface. 

[Jon Bryon]

6 hours ago, dov said:

Since I spoiled more than one model by silvering, therefore I learned.

After a big lot of trying, different products of varnishing etc. I found

this way as mentioned above as the sole safe way.

No matter which decal sheet you use!

 

Generally more variables increases the risk of something going wrong. Yes, It may happen.

Variables can become constants, if you choose the same procedure often.

The variable by itself are decals. Some are excellent, some are lausy.

With my way shown, I can get along with all sort of decals, if they do not fall apart by itself.

 

Tell me, @Jon Bryon, how do you actually work with decals? I have seen your website. Excellent!

Your method is new for me! Very new. I will try it & tell you.

On my Su-34 in 1/48. On weapons first only!

 

 

Happy modelling

 

I don't really know what to say. Below are examples of decals applied directly to paint with no gloss or polishing (MRP, Mr Color, Hataka lacquers, Akan lacquers). All are in 1/48.

 

I generally use a lot of Mr Mark Setter (not the Neo version) and don't wick any water or decal solution away. I find the adhesive fills the gaps and the solution reduces the elastic strength of the decal to close to zero so the microscopic perturbations are not an issue. It seems to work for me, I think 

 

Jon

 

Phantom FG.1:

 

 

RF-84F:

 

 

Spitfire Mk.16:

 

 

Be-4:

 

 

Spitfire PR.19 (the serial is airbrushed and intentionally misaligned, as per the original):

 

 

F-2A:

 

 

F-CK-1C:

 

 

 

 

 

[CFster]

Really nice job Jon. Yeah I think squashing down the decals with a cotton bud causes the adhesive to be squeezed out and that can contribute to silvering. I also think that can be responsible for those white deposits we see around the decals sometimes - maybe not decal solution but actually adhesive. I wick just enough moisture so the decal won’t float away, and try to have it on a level surface so the setting solution can sit on top of the decal and work instead of running down the side of the fuselage. Usually involves creative solutions for positioning an aircraft on its side.