Blue, Blue, My Love Is Azure Blue - and happily some of our paints are too 😀

[PhantomBigStu]

I can see the very subtle hint of purple in that Azure, but mine doesn't have just a hint though I noticed on screen it has reduced to a hint maybe the case is the same for the real thing.....as I've found the last few months paint a road to madness and just best to go for it "looks ok on the model" and its easy to get hold off if its a colour that will be repeat used a lot.........Vallejo 990 one I keep meaning to try so will have a look though I'm going to just stick with humbrol 165 for MSG as that passed the "looks ok" test on the mosquito I did earlier in the year.  

[PatG]

Just wondering given how long this post has been running if there is any point in it still being a live topic as by now I think there is unlikely to ever be new information or a definitive answer and/or consensus?

 

Many/most posts on the subjective question of exact or precise colours seldom result in a conclusion of any sorts so just asking the question.

 

Healthy and informed debate is grand and often very illuminating but at some point things go as far as they can IMHO.

 

Pat.

 

Ps. by all means re-open the debate if new and/or ground braking information ever comes to light 

Edited June 1, 2023 by PatG

[Hornet133]

There is very much a point to it being a 'Live' subject. New paints are being released all the time (different brands etc, new formulations etc) and the thread is here to evaluate their accuracy when they come out.

[Ed Russell]

It will stay a live topic as long as people are interested enough in it to add to it. There is no compulsion to read any or all of it.

[Phoenix44]

8 hours ago, Hornet133 said:

There is very much a point to it being a 'Live' subject. New paints are being released all the time (different brands etc, new formulations etc) and the thread is here to evaluate their accuracy when they come out.

Accuracy against what? And if that's t, let's have a separate section for paints where new paints can be proposed and the various people doing useful analysis can give their views where we have sufficient information to be zble to comment on "acuracy".

[Phoenix44]

35 minutes ago, Ed Russell said:

It will stay a live topic as long as people are interested enough in it to add to it. There is no compulsion to read any or all of it.

True but these long live:dead:live threads don't help people find information.

[Troy Smith]

59 minutes ago, Phoenix44 said:

Accuracy against what?

The paint chips representing MAP colours that came with the RAF museum book, British Aviation Colours of World War Two.  Several different copies of the chips have been checked by both @Casey and @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies and they have aged well.  

This is considered to be the standard reference on the subject.

The photos of paints vs chip posted by @John use this.

 

As for age, well if you Google up Britmodeller Azure Blue you will find this  will come up, and it shows the subject has been debated, the MAP Azure Blue is NOT the same as BS381C Azure Blue, or the FS595 match often quoted, and that ANA Azure Blue is a different colour.

 

It also shows how badly the colour has been served in model paints, along with various factors as to why, as in the points listed above.

 

HTH 

 

[Ed Russell]

1 hour ago, Phoenix44 said:

let's have a separate section for paints

There is already a separate section for paints, which even includes a MAP thread, but it seems rational to discuss specific WW2 colours and their genesis in the WW2 section.

A search engine readily finds this thread so it is actually useful and current.

[Casey]

I've got Humbrol Acrylics Gen II (including Azure Blue), and the results are very dissapointing:

 

First, here is "quality" of paint that came in the bottle:

 

 

This is fully mixed paint (10 minutes of vortex shaker with added mixing balls inside - it had a consistency of thin soup with crunchy bits inside). It is my drawdown attempt.

 

It does have 3.33 DE from MAP Azure Blue, so not tragic, and I cant guarantee it is the color it was supposed to be considering the thing in bottle was not a paint anymore.

 

To add an insult to the injury, here is Humbrol 225 Middle Stone paint "quality". Paint was not dry when I got those photos but it did not magically get smooth when dry.

 

 

Not as bad but still it is not a paint I'd want to use. (it has 3.30DE from MAP Middle Stone if you are curious). This paint had a consistency of tar and I had to take it out of bottle (which was a difficult task) to even mix it and make a drawdown.

 

So, it seems Humbrol Gen II are still having quality issues for me.

Edited June 1, 2023 by Casey

[PatG]

Almost 13 years and still counting seems rather long for a post on any subject, not withstanding the fact that in theory any/all previous posts could be revived or kept alive based upon the rationale of new information potentially being uncovered or another paint brand/colour being released to the market.

 

If you then add all the other colours that could also be queried, as in every single colour used by all participants during WW2,  the forum would be full of such threads, none of which ever seem to come to any definitive conclusion from what I've seen so far.

 

So IMHO much better to have a bespoke section of the forum specifically devoted to these often lengthy and complex discussions around paint which could then run and run and be ongoing in the background for those who feel the need to try and define the indefinable.

 

Pat.

 

 

[Hammer2023]

5 hours ago, Casey said:

I've got Humbrol Acrylics Gen II (including Azure Blue), and the results are very dissapointing:

 

First, here is "quality" of paint that came in the bottle:

 

 

 

I picked up a few of the Humbrol paints to try out and had a similar issue with the Azure. I've never seen an acrylic paint separate so thoroughly. The paint solids have settled to the bottom of the bottle and I have completely clear fluid at the top.

 

How did you get the nozzle off the Humbrol bottle to put agitator balls in? I haven't been able to...

 

I thought it was just an old bottle (even though it's a newish range) but after extensive mixing for my Nix sensor test (don't have result to hand, but it was around 3 point something, so similar to yours, Casey), it had completely separated again within a day of the test.

 

The Mig Azure Blue remains the closest match to the RAF British Aviation Colours book sample that I have tested, with a Nix sensor match (different to Casey's testing protocol of more sophisticated equipment and expertise) of (off the top of my head) 2.29. I've found my way to another couple of potentials, using a wargames paint app I have from my toy soldier painting, from the Wargames Foundry range (intended for Union Army trousers) that might be close also, but I'm waiting for those to arrive.

Edited June 1, 2023 by Hammer2023

[Casey]

21 minutes ago, Hammer2023 said:

How did you get the nozzle off the Humbrol bottle to put agitator balls in? I haven't been able to...

Strong pliers, squishing the nozzle completely to get a grip and much more force than I should ever use on a bottle of paint...

 

1 hour ago, PatG said:

Almost 13 years and still counting seems rather long for a post on any subject,

13 years still counting and still my research shows the following:

 

Target: RAF16 - Sky Blue | GU 4.4
    No matches with DE00<=3.00
Target: RAF17 - Azure Blue | GU 3.3
    No matches with DE00<=3.00
Target: RAF18 - Light Mediterranean Blue | GU 3.2
    No matches with DE00<=3.00

 

I have separate general topic for all MAP colors matches, but those three are kind of unique, since they have no good matches in Revell, Vallejo and Humbrol.

 

Also as @Troy Smith pointed out - this is the thread that is indexed by google and is leading people from outside here.

 

I agree it could benefit from some spring cleanup and topic consolidation though.

[stevehnz]

9 hours ago, Casey said:

So, it seems Humbrol Gen II are still having quality issues for me.

Ouch. These have only just arrived in New Zealand from what I can see & none local yet. I was going to order a few in but having seen this, I'll wait till I can pick one up locally & if it is rubbish like that, can take it back.

Steve.

 

[keefr22]

7 hours ago, stevehnz said:

& if it is rubbish like that,

 

I don't have the Azure blue but bought three other colours (scarlet, duck egg green (I think Humbrol label it) and another I forget) when they first came out in the dropper bottles a few years back and they were fine when tested. Haven't used them since, so wondering whether they degrade over time? Will dig them out for a look when I'm next in the muddle room!

 

Keith

[keefr22]

12 hours ago, PatG said:

Almost 13 years and still counting seems rather long for a post on any subject, not withstanding the fact that in theory any/all previous posts could be revived or kept alive based upon the rationale of new information potentially being uncovered or another paint brand/colour being released to the market.

 

But isn't that what's basically happening in this thread? Started 13 years ago, lying dormant for a while and then being periodically revived over the years with new posts with new info or about new brands?

 

And I'm sure if the admin team had any concerns about the length of time it's been open they'd have closed it by now.

 

Keith

[PatG]

Keith,

 

Very fair point, just thought it might be better to have a dedicated area for all paint discussions to keep the main area a wee bit less congested given that they often go on for page after page... with no definitive conclusion.

 

For example the thread is now discussing the thickness of the paints and how best to stir them which seems rather off track and would be better served in another area of the forum.

 

Moderators, what do you think?

 

Pat.

Edited June 2, 2023 by PatG

[Troy Smith]

6 hours ago, PatG said:

Very fair point, just thought it might be better to have a dedicated area for all paint discussions to keep the main area a wee bit less congested given that they often go on for page after page... with no definitive conclusion.

There is a definitve conclusion so far.  Apart from Colourcoats, wyhich is enamle,  model paints do not seem to  have not matched the MAP colour. 

It has also explored the various reasons.

6 hours ago, PatG said:

 

For example the thread is now discussing the thickness of the paints and how best to stir them which seems rather off track and would be better served in another area of the forum.

Two choices for places on the forum.

Paint or Aircraft WW II.

MAP Azure blue is a WW II aircraft paint.  

The paint section is about paint, and problems with paint.   This is about a specfic  WW II aircraft paint colour,  and matches, or not to it.

So, Aircraft WWII is likely the best place on the forum. 

The digression into Humbrol paint quality is of relevance as the OP @John has a pot of 157 that he though was a good match,  but @Casey had problems with, and found was not such a good match.

A discussion on Humbrol paints quality as paint would be better in the paint section, but this is primarily about colour matches, but  paint that is  dead on match that is useless as paint is also worth noting.

I know threads like this do drive some folks crazy, just don't read it if so.   Others may find it of use. 

Bear in mind that this is most likely the most indepth discussion of the subject available anywhere, you may have to read 18 pages,  but they are all in one place. 

We have other thread on here that are far more unwieldy, and much harder to search, like the All The Spitfire/Hurricane questions.

It's not ideal, but BM has turned into one of the most in detailed forums over the years, it not for everyone, a chap I met at a model show described as being "a bit anal"  but it's a free public forum, with a quite mind boggling amount of information available, in a significant amount of cases,  pretty defintive information.   In some cases,  bang up to date answers from the expert in the subject.

And if not, it's also useful to understand why it's not defintive and what is known...    

 

HTH

 

 

 

[Mike]

18 hours ago, PatG said:

Keith,

 

Very fair point, just thought it might be better to have a dedicated area for all paint discussions to keep the main area a wee bit less congested given that they often go on for page after page... with no definitive conclusion.

 

For example the thread is now discussing the thickness of the paints and how best to stir them which seems rather off track and would be better served in another area of the forum.

 

Moderators, what do you think?

 

Pat.

Paint threads tend to leave me cold too, but stifling discussion because they're interested and you're not doesn't really sound fair, does it?

 

If the thread blew up into handbags at dawn, that's when we step in, but while the back-and-forth carries on in a reasonable manner, with people dribbling and scraping paint around on pieces of card in a friendly manner, that's fine.  It keeps them off the streets, and reduces the amount of gnawing on furniture.

 

If it's bugging you, and it seems to be by the number of times you've interjected on this last page alone, just ignore it.  I manage with the four-word story, so you can do it too

[keefr22]

20 hours ago, Mike said:

It keeps them off the streets, and reduces the amount of gnawing on furniture.

 

 

I'm glad I wasn't drinking my morning coffee when I read that Mike!! 🤣

 

Keith