Last Legs Ponies: P-51 Mustangs, P-47 Thunderbolts (and other American WWII fighters) around the Caribbean

[opus999]

One of the many entertaining things about this and the Hurricane thread is the production line photos!  

[ModelingEdmontonian]

On 2/12/2022 at 6:49 AM, VT Red Sox Fan said:

Great mass production—question/thought, did these aircraft oppose each other while serving in these nations, if so it would be an interesting match up for a collection—sorry for the question/thought as I am not trying to hijack the thread—amazing work—best, Erwin 

Don't apologize, Erwin! As far as I understand, no, the Guatemalan, Costa Rican, Dominican, and Haitian P-51s would never have engaged. I do know there was a war between El Salvador and Honduras that P-51s were involved in. I read that Dominican Republic P-51s engaged a Cuban ship and the Costa Rica P-51s definitely fought, but in an internal conflict. That's about the extent of my knowledge of combat history with these birds!

[ModelingEdmontonian]

On 2/13/2022 at 10:37 AM, opus999 said:

One of the many entertaining things about this and the Hurricane thread is the production line photos!  

Glad you like them, I have fun with the mass production too!

 

My beautiful Aztec decals finally arrived, so I now have all the decals I need for this project. These are the P-51 and P-47 packs.

 

 

And here are the P-38s (this pack includes decals for other types operated by a variety of Latin American air forces):

 

[opus999]

Wow, those are complete!  I can really see the appeal of getting one of those sheets and a dozen kits and building them all!  

[ModelingEdmontonian]

Here are the Guatemala and Haiti profiles I'm building with Airfix kits and the Aztec decals:

 

[ModelingEdmontonian]

Cockpits all assembled--nothing fancy here but a little bit of wash and dry brushing.

 

 

Oh, and by the way, yes I broke all three Airfix joysticks; the joystick in this one has been mostly successfully re-assembled.

 

 

In this case, however, I had lost a piece, so I used the cannon from a Hawker Hurricane Mk IIc. A bit odd, I know, but I was happy enough with it!

 

 

Anyway, here the fuselages are all buttoned up (and exhaust stacks painted sitting behind them all).

 

 

A little bit of seam work to do on those, but mostly they're looking pretty good. Wings are now attached and a few other pieces on some of these as below.

 

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

4 hours ago, ModelingEdmontonian said:

Oh, and by the way, yes I broke all three Airfix joysticks; the joystick in this one has been mostly successfully re-assembled.

Yep thats Airfix, that and the spine antenna. I usually replace the stick with a bit of brass wire bent to shape. And plastic strip cut/filed to shape for the antenna. 

[Tim R-T-C]

Looks like a very interesting project, I enjoy post-war use of WW2 planes, particularly in unexpected countries.

 

A link that may help - Shelf Oddity mostly make 1/144 decals, but they do have their full colour instruction guides for download and some nice profiles that might provide extra information for some of your builds.

 

https://shelfoddity.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=194&search=latin

https://shelfoddity.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=195

[AdrianMF]

Great project! I was raised on WWII aircraft and came across a book in the 1960s which showed me (1) the Mustang was still being used by the Dominican Republic and(2) how tiny it was compared to contemporary jet fighters. Looking forward to the builds.

 

Regards,

Adrian

[ModelingEdmontonian]

As I think about the P-47 stage, I'm trying to figure out if there are any meaningful differences between a P-47D-30 and P-47M that a casual modeller would want to worry about in 1/72. I'm thinking not, but I know there are many experts around here that may know otherwise!

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

40 minutes ago, ModelingEdmontonian said:

As I think about the P-47 stage, I'm trying to figure out if there are any meaningful differences between a P-47D-30 and P-47M that a casual modeller would want to worry about in 1/72. I'm thinking not, but I know there are many experts around here that may know otherwise!

@Tbolt would be your guy here. I think the Magneto’s were different, unless your willing to change an engine out I don't think much.  

[ModelingEdmontonian]

4 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

@Tbolt would be your guy here. I think the Magneto’s were different, unless your willing to change an engine out I don't think much.  

I'm not sure I even know what a Magneto is... good thing I'm asking on here! I suppose the real question for me is can I use the Hobby 2000 P-47Ms (I think these are ex-Revells) as P-47D-30s?

[ModelingEdmontonian]

4 minutes ago, ModelingEdmontonian said:

...Hobby 2000 P-47Ms (I think these are ex-Revells) as P-47D-30s?

Actually, I now realize my Aztec decal profiles say P-47D-30s, -35s, and -40s, not sure if those differ significantly? Wasn't aware there was a P-47D-35...

[ModelingEdmontonian]

On 2/17/2022 at 2:28 PM, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

Yep thats Airfix, that and the spine antenna. I usually replace the stick with a bit of brass wire bent to shape. And plastic strip cut/filed to shape for the antenna. 

I think @AliGauld somehow managed to keep the stick intact, but otherwise I do believe I'm in good company from what I read around here. Still, I thought with three tries I might get lucky with one, at least!

 

On 2/17/2022 at 2:57 PM, Tim R-T-C said:

Looks like a very interesting project, I enjoy post-war use of WW2 planes, particularly in unexpected countries.

 

A link that may help - Shelf Oddity mostly make 1/144 decals, but they do have their full colour instruction guides for download and some nice profiles that might provide extra information for some of your builds.

 

https://shelfoddity.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=194&search=latin

https://shelfoddity.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=195

Thanks, @Tim R-T-C! These will indeed be useful as I begin the Venezuelan and Colombian P-47s!

 

On 2/17/2022 at 4:17 PM, AdrianMF said:

Great project! I was raised on WWII aircraft and came across a book in the 1960s which showed me (1) the Mustang was still being used by the Dominican Republic and(2) how tiny it was compared to contemporary jet fighters. Looking forward to the builds.

 

Regards,

Adrian

Thanks, Adrian! I believe Dominican Republic was operating the P-51 right into the 1980s, which is pretty crazy eh? That means it had a front-line operational life of 40+ years, which surely must be the longest by far of any prop fighter. 

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

2 hours ago, ModelingEdmontonian said:

I'm not sure I even know what a Magneto is... good thing I'm asking on here! I suppose the real question for me is can I use the Hobby 2000 P-47Ms (I think these are ex-Revells) as P-47D-30s?

The two tear dropped bits on top of the crank case are the bits Im referring too. A magneto Is basically similar to an Alternator on a car. Motorcycles use them as well. 
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_%26_Whitney_R-2800_Double_Wasp#/media/File%3APratt_%26_Whitney_R-2800_Engine_1.jpg

[Tbolt]

11 hours ago, ModelingEdmontonian said:

As I think about the P-47 stage, I'm trying to figure out if there are any meaningful differences between a P-47D-30 and P-47M that a casual modeller would want to worry about in 1/72. I'm thinking not, but I know there are many experts around here that may know otherwise!

 

The only real difference from a modelling perspective is the engine and the propeller.

 

The P-47M introduced the C series engine which has a noticeably different front case ( which some people incorrectly call it a crankcase - the crankcase is the section that sits below the cylinders ), which instead of being one piece like the B series engines, was made up of two main parts bolted together.

 

 

This is how the R-2800-59 looks as used on the P-47D-20 to D-40. Notice the -59 used GE ignition units, referred to as "turtleback mags" which combine distributor and magneto in one unit. This meant the magneto pad which sits in the middle of the two turtlebacks was blanked off. The black unit sitting in front of that is the prop governor, in this case the one for the Curtiss Electric props. 

 

 

 

This is the R-2800-57 as used on the P-47M with it's two part front case. This used separate octagonal shaped distributors and a magneto block sitting in between them. The prop governor isn't fitted to this engine but goes on the pad just below the right distributor.

 

 

 

The propeller used on there D-30 from the factory was the CE symmetrical blade, though props were sometimes changed out, so it's best to check the photos of the aircraft you are modelling. The P-47M used what was basically the same prop blade but is had a cuff which was flared more, but I don't know of any P-47M kit which has modelled this difference.

 

 

 

5 hours ago, ModelingEdmontonian said:

I'm not sure I even know what a Magneto is... good thing I'm asking on here! I suppose the real question for me is can I use the Hobby 2000 P-47Ms (I think these are ex-Revells) as P-47D-30s?

 

A magneto is basically just a generator to produce a high voltage which it sends to the distributors. 

 

The Revell P-47M kit has a basic looking version of the -57 so not it's not correct for the D-30, but if you didn't want to find a replacement you could just modify it a bit.

 

The prop in the Revell kit is the CE asymmetric blade, so it's incorrect for the P-47M, but maybe correct depending on the D-30 airframe you are building. But if you want to model the symmetrical blade CE prop it's not too difficult to modify the kit one.

 

 

5 hours ago, ModelingEdmontonian said:

Actually, I now realize my Aztec decal profiles say P-47D-30s, -35s, and -40s, not sure if those differ significantly? Wasn't aware there was a P-47D-35...

 

The D-40 added the K-14 gunsight and the ability to carry 10 HVAR's where as the D-30 could only carry 4.

 

As far as I'm aware the P-47D-35 was only a designation given to the D-30's supplied to the Mexican and Cuban air forces ( and maybe one Chilean airframe). At a guess these maybe just had some minor upgrades, hence the designation between D-30 and D-40, though I haven't come across any specific info on these airframes yet.

 

[ModelingEdmontonian]

Wow, @Tbolt that is a wealth of information, thank you! Thanks to some of your points I'm now realizing there is a distinct "M" vs. "D" sprue in the Revell P-47M and P-47D-30 kits with a clearly different "front of the engine piece"--I thought at first they were identical. I already have one P-47M kit, so I'll see now if I can find a P-47D-30 as well. I'm inconsistently committed to accuracy, but at minimum I like to understand where I am making an inaccurate choice as opposed to doing it out of ignorance! 

 

5 hours ago, Tbolt said:

The prop in the Revell kit is the CE asymmetric blade, so it's incorrect for the P-47M, but maybe correct depending on the D-30 airframe you are building. But if you want to model the symmetrical blade CE prop it's not too difficult to modify the kit one.

I'll have to see what I can figure out about propellers... as I look at the photos I think the Revell one might be right. I have the Tamiya kit too (which I intend to convert to D-30) and it has two prop versions.

 

5 hours ago, Tbolt said:

As far as I'm aware the P-47D-35 was only a designation given to the D-30's supplied to the Mexican and Cuban air forces ( and maybe one Chilean airframe). At a guess these maybe just had some minor upgrades, hence the designation between D-30 and D-40, though I haven't come across any specific info on these airframes yet.

Makes sense; for my purposes, I'm going to assume no significant 1/72 differences.

 

So, for the Venezuela, Colombia, Mexico, and Cuba P-47Ds, I believe I will be working with the following kits (I have the first two already as noted above):

• Tamiya P-47D (with Quickboost conversion pieces for dorsal fin and underwing brakes, etc.);
• Revell P-47M with possibly some minor modifications to the engine's front case;
• Hobby Boss P-47M, which is the Revell kit reboxed so likely requires same front case mods;
• Revell P-47D-30 (if I can find one).

I like to work with different kits (or at least different boxings) to compare. I also have an Academy P-47D-25 I bought by mistake, and converting it from a -25 to -30 is beyond me, so instead I'm going to build it as a Brazilian P-47D-25 (I ordered the decals this weekend). Brazil does not border the Caribbean, but it's very close...

[ModelingEdmontonian]

Meanwhile, on the P-51s... horizontal stabilizers are all attached and various other pieces such that at this point they are all as-complete-as-I-want-them-to-be before priming/painting. I considered attaching the canopy bottom piece (not sure how to refer to that) at this stage, but decided against it. Clockwise from top left we have: Dominican Republic (Tamiya); Haiti; Guatemala; and Costa Rica (all Airfix).

 

 

I have left off the flaps on Guatemala because I think their installation will make the camo painting difficult; likewise I left off Costa Rica's and Guatemala's rudders because they will require some detailed paintwork and masking that will be easier to do prior to installation. I need to work on some seams and flash before masking and priming, but the weather this week is such (-21 C this morning...) that I doubt I'll be taking them outside anytime soon anyway. Hopefully they can be ready to spray next weekend if the weather warms up a little.

[Tbolt]

Yes the Tamiya P-47 gives plenty of nice spares so that's handy. The Academy P-47 needs some work to get a reasonable result from. I gave up on them when the Revell kit turned up as it used to be really cheap, still not too bad a price now though and straight out of the box you get a good P-47.

[Tweener]

Hobby Boss has a 1/72 P47M?

[ModelingEdmontonian]

3 hours ago, Tweener said:

Hobby Boss has a 1/72 P47M?

My bad, Hobby 2000: 

 

 

[ModelingEdmontonian]

Well, so much for "Hopefully they can be ready to spray next weekend if the weather warms up a little..." I did get a little bit of putty in a few spots, but my Hawker Hurricanes are needing more attention nowadays so I've corralled the ponies for now.

 

 

Also: I was successful in finding a Revell P-47D-30 on evilBay, and it arrived today!

 

 

I haven't opened the bag yet, but I'm impressed with how crisp the sprues are looking and those decals (which I won't be using) look pretty good too! The instruction paper, on the other hand, is feeling yellowed and brittle!

 

 

The Hobby 2000 P-47M is in the mail as well, along with the modification parts for the Tamiya P-47D. I'll photograph the other kits once those arrive.

Edited March 27, 2022 by ModelingEdmontonian

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

2 hours ago, ModelingEdmontonian said:

Well, so much for "Hopefully they can be ready to spray next weekend if the weather warms up a little..." I did get a little bit of putty in a few spots, but my Hawker Hurricanes are needing more attention nowadays so I've corralled the ponies for now.

 

 

Also: I was successful in finding a Revell P-47D-30 on evilBay, and it arrived today!

 

 

I haven't opened the bag yet, but I'm impressed with how crisp the sprues are looking and those decals (which I won't be using) look pretty good too! The instruction paper, on the other hand, is feeling yellowed and brittle!

 

 

The Hobby 2000 P-47M is in the mail as well, along with the modification parts for the Tamiya P-47D. I'll photograph the other kits once those arrive.

Ooooh I like the Jug’s markings, its a plane Ive wanted to do for awhile. 

[VT Red Sox Fan]

Really like how the P-51’s cocked turned out—really looking forward to the P-47 portion of the build, lots of great info here—best, Erwin

[opus999]

I agree with @VT Red Sox Fan, the P-51's cockpits look nice.  Can't wait to see the P-47 get built up, it's one of my favorites.