Ark Royal circa 1587.

[Black Knight]

6 hours ago, mdesaxe said:

A minor detail but a hundredweight is 112 pounds, not 118. A hundredweight is eight stone (8 x 14 pounds).

Thank you for the correction; a mis-type by me.

I was half asleep at 05;34!

[mdesaxe]

4 hours ago, Black Knight said:

Do not forget that some of the guns were breech loaders which did not need running in for re-loading. They were on wood slide carriages,. Drawn to their firing position they did not use recoil retaining ropes which allowed other guns on wheeled carriages to run into the ship. The ropes used to haul these breech loaders into position were secured and kept the slide carriages from moving. The slide carriages could also be manoeuvred so that the guns could fire at an angle out of the gun port. Elizabethan (Tudor) wheeled gun carriages and guns were roped by way of ropes to the gun carriage unlike the later eg Napoleonic guns which were roped by way of a rope around the cascable ( the big ball on the breech end) Tudor guns were pulled tighter than the later guns.

But which guns were the breech loaders? Usually the middle sized calibre ones.

As for taking up room in the ship. A ship like this was purely a War-ship. There was no need of comfort for the crew. The crew would and did sleep, live daily, eat and rest, on top and around their guns. Between 6 and 8 men to a gun formed a 'mess'. Some would sleep on the decking between guns, some would have hammocks - the senior seamen did, not the average sailor or powder monkey.

There were TWO 'revolutions' in English navy warship design in the later third of the sixteenth century - "race-built" ships (noted by Pat) and the almost universal adoption of cast-iron or bronze muzzle-loading ordnance. Consequently, I must disagree that any of the primary ordnance aboard ROYAL NAVY warships in 1588 was breech-loading. Some certainly was in the 1540s (the Mary Rose era) but these large breech-loading weapons were obsolete by 1588. The documents in Oppenheim's work on the administration of the navy clearly indicate that all the big guns then used by the Royal Navy were muzzle-loaders and mostly iron (English artillery ironfounders had a Europe-wide reputation for excellence at the time, largely because English iron was cheaper to produce - think Weald iron).

 

The specific armament of Ark Royal in 1588 from contemporary documentation was 4 cannon of 7 (60-pounders), 4 demi-cannon (32-pounders), 12 culverins (18-pounders), 12 demi-culverins (9-pounders), 6 sakers 6-pounders) and 17 smaller guns (including an unspecified number of minions (4-pounders) and some of which may have been old-style wrought-iron breech-loaders of around 2-pounds for anti-personnel work - and these could even have been in the tops in swivel mounts).

 

Ark Royal's main armament is specifically listed as 'brass' which is what the navy called bronze ordnance right up to the late 17th century.

 

Note that the weights of the balls were approximations, as were the bores - both to some extent were a function of the ironfounders preferences - so a demi-cannon, for example, could be anything from a 30-pounder to a 36-pounder. Also note that it is quite probable that the hired ships in the fleet commissioned to combat the Armada carried quite a few old-style breech-loaders.

 

Black Knight is correct that shipboard gun carriages of this period usually only had two forward trucks and that the breeching went to the carriage, not the cascabel (this rigging of the breeching continued on English ships possibly into the very early 1700s and in Europe for 10 years or more longer).

 

Respectfully,

Maurice

Edited July 10, 2019 by mdesaxe

[dnl42]

This is coming along quite nicely!

 

Some books you may already have. They all deal with periods just after Ark Royal, but may be useful nonetheless. The Rigging of Ships in the Days of the Spritsail Topmast, 1600-1720 by Anderson; excellent descriptions and a number of useful drawings. It's a Dover reprint that appears to be readily available. af Chapman's Architectura Navalis Mercatoria is also available as a Dover reprint, but it's not clear to me how useful it would be. Finally, Lees' The Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War 1625-1860 is an excellent reference, but is likely a bit pricey.

 

HTH

-- 

dnl

[Courageous]

One big military history lesson here, great!

 

Stuart

[mdesaxe]

13 hours ago, mdesaxe said:

The specific armament of Ark Royal in 1588 from contemporary documentation was 4 cannon of 7 (60-pounders), 4 demi-cannon (32-pounders), 12 culverins (18-pounders), 12 demi-culverins (9-pounders), 6 sakers 6-pounders) and 17 smaller guns (including an unspecified number of minions (4-pounders) and some of which may have been old-style wrought-iron breech-loaders of around 2-pounds for anti-personnel work - and these could even have been in the tops in swivel mounts).

 

Ark Royal's main armament is specifically listed as 'brass' which is what the navy called bronze ordnance right up to the late 17th century.

 

Note that the weights of the balls were approximations, as were the bores - both to some extent were a function of the ironfounders preferences - so a demi-cannon, for example, could be anything from a 30-pounder to a 36-pounder. Also note that it is quite probable that the hired ships in the fleet commissioned to combat the Armada carried quite a few old-style breech-loaders.

 

Black Knight is correct that shipboard gun carriages of this period usually only had two forward trucks and that the breeching went to the carriage, not the cascabel (this rigging of the breeching continued on English ships possibly into the very early 1700s and in Europe for 10 years or more longer).

I must admit to an error - instead of looking to the source material I took a short-cut and relied on William Laird Clowes' supposedly accurate citation of English State Papers from Oppenheim's work in his The Royal Navy: A History from the Earliest Times to 1900, vol. I . I pulled out my copy of Oppenheim from the recesses and found, on page 157, his tabulation from State Papers of the armament of the Royal Navy for this date. Ark Royal did not have 17 smaller guns. Instead, there were just 2 "fowlers" and 2 "portpieces". These were small semi-portable guns and definitely were breechloaders, since the former had 2 chambers each and the latter had 3 chambers each (meaning that they could be pre-loaded, like cartridges). The documents also indicate  that the culverins, demi-culverins, and sakers were on the recently-introduced four-wheeled carriages. These carriages were not the same as those with which we are familiar from the eighteenth century but had a solid flat bottom base with stepped side pieces - there's a reasonably useful illustration of this type in John Sellers, The Sea Gunner (I think it's accessible via Google books) even though it dates from a century later . The rigging still would be breeching to the carriage rather than the cascabel, since that was the pattern for another century.

 

The State Papers also list some odd details - the two-wheeled carriages for the cannon were 5' 6" long, those for the demi-cannon were 5' long, and they cost £1 3s 4d and 19s 9d apiece respectively (about £1.16 and £0.98 in “new money”)!

 

With apologies,

Maurice

[Terry1954]

On 7/10/2019 at 7:29 AM, Courageous said:

One big military history lesson here, great!

I agree Stuart, a very informative history lesson indeed. I had never really considered that there were breech loading cannons before the muzzle loaders, which in my mind pre-dated the breech loaders dating from the mid 1800's onwards. Still trying to get my head around that one!

 

Terry

 

 

[patmaquette]

Thanks everyone for the interesting and authoritative information: it is really nice to learn these things as I build the model.

 

The guns have arrived and from the couple of dozen I ordered have come up with candidates for Ark Royal.

 

 

 

 

I compared length, bore, outside diameters at the muzzle and touch-hole. For the real guns, I calculated the latter from the bore of the cannon: it was said to have a circumference of 10 calibres (and works out at around 3 1/4 times the cannon bore). After studying some cannon drawings on the 'net, I decided the diameter at the muzzle was a little over twice the bore, so used a value of 7 calibres, just to keep to the spirit of things!

The values I quote will be: measurement of cannon part (value for real cannon / 144) and are in mm:

 

60-pdr cannon: Corel part number C43. Bore 1.83 (1.4), muzzle diameter 3.25 (3.1), at touch hole 4.59 (4.5).

As you can see, the part is not a full cannon, just the muzzle end. It is the one on the right in this photo

 

 

It is just a tad oversized and looks a beast on the model, but is a very nice looking product.

 

32 pdr demi-cannon: Corel part  C40. This is left one in the photo. Bore 1.69 (1.1), muzzle diameter 2.78 (2.6), at touch hole 3.81 (3.6).

Again, a smidgen over sized, but does look good alongside its larger cousin.

 

18-pdr culverin: RB Fittings 3011/20. This is a full cannon nicely turned from brass. Length 20.21 (25.4), bore 1.11 (1.0), muzzle diameter 2.78 (2.2), at touch hole 3.55 (3.1). It is on the right in this photo:

 

Although not so long and slender as the real one, the gun is probably the most sensible option given the limited amount of space on the main deck. It is the least compromise between what I need and what is available. However, I do think it will look really good. Four of the twelve guns will be mounted below on the gun deck, so only the business end of these will be seen.

6-pdr saker: RB Fittings 3011/15. This is on the left of the above photo. Again, it is a nicely produced part and should look good on the weather decks alongside its larger cousin. 

Length 15.29 (18.0), bore 1.07 (0.7), muzzle diameter 1.60 (1.5), at touch hole 2.39 (2.5).  

 

9-pdr demi-culverin: Corel part C20. I have selected a full length gun even though all of the 9-pdrs will be located in the hull. Therefore the length of the gun is not important.

Length 15.0 (21.2), bore 1.27 (0.8), muzzle diameter 1.57 (1.8), at touch hole 2.39 (2.5).

 

As for the current state of the build, the various ejector pin marks and shrinkage dimples have been dealt with.

Bits of gun deck are next and I can use the selected guns to help me with placing them.

 

Thanks again for looking and if you have any comments then please do say,

Pat

 

 

 

Edited July 11, 2019 by patmaquette

[patmaquette]

Not having a close approximation to the 32 pdr culverin was bothering me. After some head scratching, I figured out a way to adapt my simple modelling lathe to turn tapered barrels, so had a try at making one from scratch in plastic.

Here is the result alongside the brass one from RB Fittings that I had selected previously. As you can see, it really is very long and takes almost half the width of the main deck....

 

 

 

 

I based the cannon on this drawing.....

 

 

It was turned from sprue runner and the reinforcing rings are fine lead wire.

I like how it turned out - but having to make another 7 full barrels and 4 muzzles is not a pleasant prospect.

Maybe the best way forward is to get some resin ones cast (or even have a try myself). Has anyone any recommendations?

 

Thank you for looking and your replies to this thread,

Pat

 

Edited July 12, 2019 by patmaquette

[Black Knight]

Its easy enough for you to make a mould and then cast more of your own cannons.

It can be done cheaply too.

Have you got Milliput?

Mix up a block more than the length and width of the gun and at least twice the depth. Coat the gun with some olive oil and press into the Milliput. Leave it there until the Miliput is half-set then carefully remove. The olive oil acts a mould release. When the Mili is fully set, put the cannon back in, coat it all with olive oil then press another block of mixed Mili over it all. Let set. Then separate. Tkake cannon out and you have a cannon shaped void to pour resin into for making cannons. David's Fastglas car accessory resin is relatively cheap for these jobs.

Practice the Miliput mould technique on some sprue first. If you get it wrong your cannon will be stuck into the Mili

As an alternative, I use polymer clay for quick moulds. Polymer clay is also known as FIMO and Sculpey

I did this 1/32 French Eagle using this method

[dnl42]

Nice work!

 

I've chucked rods and parts up in my Dremel for this type of work. I just got a Hold-It Plus mounting jig from Vanda-Lay Industries to ease this usage.

 

Alternately, Vanda-Lay also has a "Duplicator" designed for the Sherline lathe. Wood ship modelers use this device for this very purpose, among others. However, as you're not cutting metal, this may be overkill.

Edited July 12, 2019 by dnl42

[Courageous]

21 hours ago, patmaquette said:

so had a try at making one from scratch in plastic.

...and it looks very nice indeed.

 

Stuart

[patmaquette]

Thank you everyone for your kind comments. Black Night, I really appreciate the trouble you went to to explain how I could cast my own cannons - I will give it a try early next week and will report back on my efforts!

However, in searching for drawings of 60 and 32 pdr guns, I have begun to doubt the dimensions I have been working from. They came from a table c.1578 by William Bourne. However, it seems in the few short years before the Armada that new gun designs with shorter barrel lengths were in service and Ark Royal probably had these. A certain William Wynter is said to be responsible for introducing them. I have only scant information about them at present, however.

I'm off to a model show tomorrow (hurrah!) so will continue my search on Monday.

 

Thanks again to all,

Pat

Edited July 13, 2019 by patmaquette

[ArnoldAmbrose]

Gidday Pat,your scratch-built gun turned out very nice. I can see, however, how you could be somewhat daunted by having to make so many others. But look on the bright side - you could be making Nelson's HMS Victory at Trafalgar. She carried 104 guns I believe.

     And Mr Black Knight, although this is not my thread I'd like to thank you also on your writing up of the mold making technique.

Regards, Jeff.

[Chewbacca]

On ‎12‎/‎07‎/‎2019 at 21:10, Black Knight said:

Its easy enough for you to make a mould and then cast more of your own cannons.

It can be done cheaply too.

Have you got Milliput?

Mix up a block more than the length and width of the gun and at least twice the depth. Coat the gun with some olive oil and press into the Milliput. Leave it there until the Miliput is half-set then carefully remove. The olive oil acts a mould release. When the Mili is fully set, put the cannon back in, coat it all with olive oil then press another block of mixed Mili over it all. Let set. Then separate. Tkake cannon out and you have a cannon shaped void to pour resin into for making cannons. David's Fastglas car accessory resin is relatively cheap for these jobs.

Practice the Miliput mould technique on some sprue first. If you get it wrong your cannon will be stuck into the Mili

As an alternative, I use polymer clay for quick moulds. Polymer clay is also known as FIMO and Sculpey

I did this 1/32 French Eagle using this method

Interesting technique and nice work on the eagle.  I'd never thought of using Milliput for the mould.  So how do you stop the second iteration of Milliput from bonding to the first?  Is the olive oil sufficient?  I'd have thought that it would soak in.

Edited July 14, 2019 by Chewbacca

[mdesaxe]

19 hours ago, patmaquette said:

Thank you everyone for your kind comments. Black Night, I really appreciate the trouble you went to to explain how I could cast my own cannons - I will give it a try early next week and will report back on my efforts!

However, in searching for drawings of 60 and 32 pdr guns, I have begun to doubt the dimensions I have been working from. They came from a table c.1578 by William Bourne. However, it seems in the few short years before the Armada that new gun designs with shorter barrel lengths were in service and Ark Royal probably had these. A certain William Wynter is said to be responsible for introducing them. I have only scant information about them at present, however. 

I'm off to a model show tomorrow (hurrah!) so will continue my search on Monday.

 

Thanks again to all,

Pat

There were three editions of William Bourne's The Arte of Shooting in Great Ordnaunce (all sorts of spellings, too): 1578, 1587, and (very posthumously) 1643. The edition of 1587 (closest to your date) lists for sizes:

 

"ordinary" cannon - 11-12 feet with 8-inch bore

"ordinarie" demi-cannon - 10-11 feet with 6-1/2-inch bore

"ordinarie" culverin - 12 feet with 5-1/4-inch bore

"ordinarie" demi-culverin - 10 feet with 4-inch bore

"ordinarie" saker - 8-9 feet with 3-3/4-inch bore

 

He list what he calls the "elder sort" of these guns with length of 12 feet, 11-12 feet, 12-13 feet, 12 feet, and 10 feet long respectively. Elsewhere, he also points out that gun founders had their own ideas for the correct sizes, so all his lengths, in particular, he qualified as "or thereaboute", giving you some leeway!

 

You should also note that I have dropped out several of his types and sizes that do not fit the parameters of this model, such as French double cannon.

 

PS: William Wynter was Master of Naval Ordnance for the Royal Navy from 1557 until he died in 1589

 

Hope this helps.

Maurice

Edited July 14, 2019 by mdesaxe
add information

[patmaquette]

17 hours ago, mdesaxe said:

There were three editions of William Bourne's The Arte of Shooting in Great Ordnaunce (all sorts of spellings, too): 1578, 1587, and (very posthumously) 1643. The edition of 1587 (closest to your date) lists for sizes:

 

"ordinary" cannon - 11-12 feet with 8-inch bore

"ordinarie" demi-cannon - 10-11 feet with 6-1/2-inch bore

"ordinarie" culverin - 12 feet with 5-1/4-inch bore

"ordinarie" demi-culverin - 10 feet with 4-inch bore

"ordinarie" saker - 8-9 feet with 3-3/4-inch bore

 

He list what he calls the "elder sort" of these guns with length of 12 feet, 11-12 feet, 12-13 feet, 12 feet, and 10 feet long respectively. Elsewhere, he also points out that gun founders had their own ideas for the correct sizes, so all his lengths, in particular, he qualified as "or thereaboute", giving you some leeway!

 

You should also note that I have dropped out several of his types and sizes that do not fit the parameters of this model, such as French double cannon.

 

PS: William Wynter was Master of Naval Ordnance for the Royal Navy from 1557 until he died in 1589

 

Hope this helps.

Maurice

Very many thanks, Maurice, this is incredibly useful and I much appreciate your help!

Pat

 

[patmaquette]

On 12/07/2019 at 21:10, Black Knight said:

Its easy enough for you to make a mould and then cast more of your own cannons.

It can be done cheaply too.

Have you got Milliput?

Mix up a block more than the length and width of the gun and at least twice the depth. Coat the gun with some olive oil and press into the Milliput. Leave it there until the Miliput is half-set then carefully remove. The olive oil acts a mould release. When the Mili is fully set, put the cannon back in, coat it all with olive oil then press another block of mixed Mili over it all. Let set. Then separate. Tkake cannon out and you have a cannon shaped void to pour resin into for making cannons. David's Fastglas car accessory resin is relatively cheap for these jobs.

Practice the Miliput mould technique on some sprue first. If you get it wrong your cannon will be stuck into the Mili

As an alternative, I use polymer clay for quick moulds. Polymer clay is also known as FIMO and Sculpey

I did this 1/32 French Eagle using this method

Thank you once again for this, Black Knight. 

Whilst looking at YouTube for clips on using the resin, I came across this one. If it is as good as it seems, it will be a really useful addition to the toolbox.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVZLXLaidjQ

It allows the use of casting resins or (as in the video) epoxy putty for the casting. No mould release agent is needed.

 

I've gone ahead and ordered some material to have a play with. I'll prepare some patterns in the mean time whilst I wait for it to arrive,

 

Pat

 

[patmaquette]

I have made the masters for casting the cannons mounted in the hull. The dimensions are as kindly given by Maurice, scaled to 1:144.

From top to bottom they are 6, 9, 18, 32 & 60 pdr.......

 

 

 

Pat

[Courageous]

Good lathe work.

 

Stuart

[mdesaxe]

Glad I could be of assistance.

 

Maurice

[patmaquette]

On 18/07/2019 at 21:32, Courageous said:

Good lathe work.

 

Stuart

Thank you Stuart. I was pleased with how they came out and my little lathe is proving useful and fun for this build.

 

I have made up gun carriages and sections of gun deck to be painted before gluing to the inside of the hull halves.

I made the gun deck in separate sections  to accommodate movement because I shall need to flex the hull halves when I come to glue them together. There will be a narrow attachment point beneath each gun port so hopefully the gun stays aligned with the port as I wrestle the hull, deck and transom into position.

 

Overall content of the batteries....

 

 

The gun carriages are simplified representations so you can see something convincing if you were to peer through the gun port. Anything out of view has not been included, such as the wheels (trucks) on the larger gun carriages.

 

 

 

Here are the 6-pdr and 9-pdr (bow chaser) carriages for inside the fo'c's'le....

 

 

There is very little space behind the bow chaser, so presumably the real ship had the 6-pdr located a tad further aft.

 

The upstand at the back of each carriage will be the attachment point for the cannon. My intention will be to install the guns through each port at a late stage of the build. Each upstand has been drilled to take a brass rod which I hope to mould into the cannons.

 

Here is the forward battery of 9, 18 and 60-pdr cannon.....

 

 

 

 

And here are the pair of 9-pdr stern chasers.....

 

 

 

I'll paint these up now. Am I right in thinking the decks are pine and the gun carriages oak? 

 

The "Blue Stuff" mould-making compound arrived today, along with a couple of types of epoxy putty. I'm looking forward to having a play with this and will report on how I get on......

 

 

 

Thanks for looking and any comments will be appreciated!

Pat

 

Edited July 22, 2019 by patmaquette

[Ripaman]

Nice guns and carriages Pat  and will look forward to your dealings with the blue stuff 

 

Regards

Richard

[GrantGoodale]

I know several people that have had good results with the Blue Stuff. If it can take the heat, you could also use a glue gun instead of the epoxy. I haven't tried that myself (caveat emptor)

 

[Courageous]

Great detail work on the carriages.

I've recently watch a video on the use of the 'Blue Stuff', looks useful and will be interesting to hear your thoughts.

 

Stuart

[Silenoz]

Nice work, also watching something alike on another forum involving Le Redoutable and HMS Victory in 1/300 scale... both very interesting builds with lots of side info...