WWII VVS Colours

[Nick Millman]

PD: Humbro 79 is the old equivalent for... Extra Dark Sea Grey? and 32 I think it is 36081, almost for sure... dark and low contrast combo...

FWIW according to Humbrol EDSG (BS 640) from the old Authentics FAA colours has to be blended but from the RAF Post War set (still BS 640) it can be replicated by Satin 123 Extra Dark Sea Grey - presumably the difference is in the matt vs satin finish.

The closest FS values to EDSG and DSG are 26118 @ 0.84 and 36118 @ 2.40 respectively. The latter is a little too dark. Geoff Thomas gives 36118 for EDSG, but it is not very close @ 4.61, and 36173 for DSG which is @ 6.56 and too light.

Humbrol 79 is supposed to replicate the old Authentics French Gris Bleu Foncé and is close to 36118, ergo I think (without checking) that it is probably somewhere between EDSG and DSG.

There is a circular aspect to this! ;-)

[K_L]

Humbrol 79 is supposed to replicate the old Authentics French Gris Bleu Foncé and is close to 36118, ergo I think (without checking) that it is probably somewhere between EDSG and DSG.

Hi Nick,

thanks for the Humbrol 79 FS equivalent!

French Gris Bleu Fonce you say... Check the lower left corner on my last year joke

It's one of the photos taken in July 1945 in France. People usually dont't realize that photos show Yak during/shortly after it had been repainted!

Red stars, white lightning and dark gray fields are clearly repainted - maybe with French Gris Bleu Fonce! So much for supposed low contrast or faded paints.

Is FS 36081 equivalent of Humbrol 32? FS 36081 is posted at http://www.humbrol.com/convert-to-humbrol/conversion-tables/ (The Official Humbrol website).

TIA,

KL

[Nick Millman]

Hi Kari

I'm sorry but I don't have a sample of Humbrol 32 to check it out! I will obtain one to have a look but there do seem to be a lot of dark greys in Humbrol's repertoire (and some decidedly greyish greens too!).

As mentioned elsewhere, one of the issues in using FS 595B to match to older standards is that the situation can arise where a single FS value is the closest match to two different colours in the older standards but with all three original colours actually being different and distinct, especially problematic with greys. This is where the words "match", "equivalent" and "substitute" really need some qualification.

To approximate colours on a model is one thing but when modellers say things like "Farbton abc is FS xyz" that is when problems can begin.

Regards

Nick

[Fernando]

I simply do not get this. Yes that is the Albom Nakrasok page. The samples are painted on genuine AMT laquers! "Cannot be taken as examples !!!". As far as I am concerned You are entirely free to come up with better examples then.

I do not know you Fernando but I do have some doubts of your sincerity for dragging me into this discussion. Next time do some reading around forums before doing that, please. With open mind.

Kari

Man, do not get enraged! You were the one who said that comments about EP were usually met with indifference... this one did not even mentioned that piece of work, and you get like that! Me "swallowing" this and that!

Had I seen the book, I would have probably realized that the pages were not made of white paper (odd thing you will concede.. you even concede the picture was a bit dark...) Would you not have explained that nicely ? No need to know me in person, no need to come with such a fine irony (myself with better examples?? beyond my chances! But I can try to make the most of the evidence other are in a position to offer), no need to have doubts yourself about my intentions... why thinking that about someone who dares advance a different opinion... I had thought I had addressed to you in a exceedingly respecful manner; if I was wrong, I apologize thoroughly.

Lastly, talking about open mind , please take a look to the "FS aproximations" (not me saying some different paint standard colour IS some FS one) given to that Jak-9 rudder... no matter if it is genuine or not, but the colours proposed seem very far from those that can be seen in the pictures. They were credited to you; that's why I asked you if you had made the comparisons. And I stress "seen in the pictures"!

I am really astonished at the level of aggression the subject arouses... what we shall achieve is that the administrators will automatically switch down any thread on VVS colours!

Fernando

[dragonlanceHR]

I am really astonished at the level of aggression the subject arouses...

Oh, I don't know... It could be from having to repeat the same argument for the umpteenth time. Futile, isn't it?

Vedran

Edit:

Oh, the merry-go-round started again on ARC.

http://s362974870.onlinehome.us/forums/air...35605&st=20

Why is it so difficult to accept that there is a official documented source (actually, sources) for the VVS camo and markings?

Edited August 29, 2011 by dragonlanceHR

[Fernando]

Oh, I don't know... It could be from having to repeat the same argument for the umpteenth time. Futile, isn't it?

Vedran

Why is it so difficult to accept that there is a official documented source (actually, sources) for the VVS camo and markings?

Hi, Vedran,

I can understand that... but look, people still argue about "Olive Drab", and some still come around and around with things such as paint standards, ANA Bulletins, fading, over and over again, and no one gets so unnerved at that... and it was the same some time ago with Japanese colours, and before that with Luftwaffe ones (both occasionally recurring in arguing).

The second statement can also be understood... myself, I am striving to "download" the information into modelling terms... specially in terms of the colours involved, I am happy enough to accept the schemes and dates of introductions data at face value...

FErnando

[K_L]

This tread actually produced some useful info!

Tikkakoski museum Yak-9 rudder: darker grey FS 35042, lighter FS 36118. (cit. K. Lumppio)".

Albom Nakrasok via Humbrol 79 (French Gris Bleu Foncé) and Humbrol 32: Humbrol 79 is close to 36118 + FS 36081 equivalent of Humbrol 32

Orlov-Vahlamov 1999 M-Hobby: AMT-11=FS26190 + AMT-12=FS27003. Neither 26190 nor 27003 exist as FS colours! Most likely authors approximated numbers between two closest matches in the fan. The closest existing FS colours in 6xxx range (gray colours) are 26187 and 26008 respectively.

There is also a possibility that 27003 was a typo; in that case authors most likely referred to 37030 (number of colours in 70xx range is very limited). Check it at http://www.colorserver.net/showcolor.asp?fs=37030

Image saved from Scalemodels.ru forum. AMT-7, AMT-11, AMT-12 and AMT-6 (AFAIK, Akan paints)

Pilavskii in “Soviet Air Force Fighter Colours” (2003): AMT- 11: FS 36375 + AMT-12: FS 36081

There is really a lot of agreement, not controversy. Only colour that stands out is Pilawskii’s AMT-11. It’s way too light. Otherwise, we see a medium gray and a dark, or almost black shade of gray.

End of the story….

Cheers,

KL

Edited August 30, 2011 by K_L

[Fernando]

This tread actually produced some useful info!

There is really a lot of agreement, not controversy. Only colour that stands out is Pilawskii’s AMT-11. It’s way too light. Otherwise, we see a medium gray and a dark, or almost black shade of gray.

End of the story….

Cheers,

KL

Hi, K-L,

I think the same. Speaking about colours strictly (i.e., not about schemes, dates of introduction, oddities) there seems to be a LOT of agreement. EP match for AMT-11 as 36375 was before SAFFC, and yes, it seems way too light. But a blackish gray as 36081 for AMT-12 had been proposed long ago (in fact, when I saw WEMM's rendition of that colour as a rather medium, bluish with a greenish cast Gray I thought it was a step back).

IF we add the apparent general agreement about the green-black scheme, we may actually getting somewhere!

Fernando

Edited August 31, 2011 by Fernando

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

Sorry to revive an old and let's be honest, contentious subject. Actually I'm not sorry - that's just something you're supposed to say prising the lid back off an old can of worms.

As everyone knows I am now the caretaker of Colourcoats paint, formerly owned by White Ensign Models.

I don't expect to find an individual universally agreed to be an expert on this subject in the UK, but it seems I have some work to do to update a few of Colourcoats' WW2 Russian colours. The whole range is a poor seller and I expect this is because people are unsure which VVS colours are acceptable and which are not. I wish to address this in the same way that the Japanese aircraft colours are being updated in line with better research.

Is Vaklamov and Orlov still the best accepted source? If I match to those, will the modelling community be happy?

Are original colourchips of the Merrick & Kiroff sort of quality available?

[Stew Dapple]

Hi Jamie,

Send a PM to Jason ('Learstang) of this forum - if he can't help you himself I am sure he will be able to point you in the right direction(s).

Cheers,

Stew

[Troy Smith]

Sorry to revive an old and let's be honest, contentious subject. Actually I'm not sorry - that's just something you're supposed to say prising the lid back off an old can of worms.

As everyone knows I am now the caretaker of Colourcoats paint, formerly owned by White Ensign Models.

I don't expect to find an individual universally agreed to be an expert on this subject in the UK, but it seems I have some work to do to update a few of Colourcoats' WW2 Russian colours. The whole range is a poor seller and I expect this is because people are unsure which VVS colours are acceptable and which are not. I wish to address this in the same way that the Japanese aircraft colours are being updated in line with better research.

Is Vaklamov and Orlov still the best accepted source? If I match to those, will the modelling community be happy?

Are original colourchips of the Merrick & Kiroff sort of quality available?

Sovietwarplanes is your best bet in English. Massimo Tessitori is the site moderator, and is a member here.

The AKAN colours are highly regarded as matches for the 1948 Album of paint chips, though they are full scale matches.

The only reason tis is a 'can of worms' is because of the Soviet Fighter Colours book, which being the first major work in English, and appearing to be an impressive, well researched and comprehensive book on the subject.

Unfortunately it is not.

It’s typical Pilawskii: no sources, some correct information and a lot of guesswork, his misconceptions, assumptions and a lot of outright misinformation!!!

see http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=1071.0

for a through explanation of what wrong with said book.

Actually, Soviet camouflage is no more convoluted or confusing than RAF camouflage, with less colours to deal with, though more types of paint, resulting in similar but not identical colours

colour chart here, with approx fs matches,

http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/color-table.html

what was used when on what

http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/colors/colors.html

It's all pretty simple really

HTH

T

[spitfire]

Sorry to revive an old and let's be honest, contentious subject. Actually I'm not sorry - that's just something you're supposed to say prising the lid back off an old can of worms.

As everyone knows I am now the caretaker of Colourcoats paint, formerly owned by White Ensign Models.

I don't expect to find an individual universally agreed to be an expert on this subject in the UK, but it seems I have some work to do to update a few of Colourcoats' WW2 Russian colours. The whole range is a poor seller and I expect this is because people are unsure which VVS colours are acceptable and which are not. I wish to address this in the same way that the Japanese aircraft colours are being updated in line with better research.

Is Vaklamov and Orlov still the best accepted source? If I match to those, will the modelling community be happy?

Are original colourchips of the Merrick & Kiroff sort of quality available?

I would be over the moon if you were to bring out more accurate VVS colours in the colourcoats range, I have spent a lot of time (and money) matching the AKAN range of paints to Xtracolor, Colourcoats, Humbrol and MM enamels to allow me to build some VVS kits, AKAN being the paint range that is most respected by the VVS experts.

As Troy says the person to really talk to would be Massimo Tessitori who is very knowledgeable on the subject.

Cheers

Dennis

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

Thanks guys, What I really need to get to is a set of L*ab values for the colours needing updated. I'll investigate the leads offered.

These will be fixed one way or another. I want to be able to state "our colours are right" as a blanket statement without some joker hidden in the proverbial pack!

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi all, I'm here.

Unfortunately the forum has some problems on these days. so it could be not accessible. Eventually, if one needs to read old posts or even to post new ones, there is the clone here: http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php

The site is still functioning.

Well, digital chips in general are only indicative; not only for problems of scanning, video setting etc, but they are also impossible to be compared with material painted chips under the same light.

I suggest to take inspiration from Akan paints, maybe making them a bit less dark.

An exception is their AE-9, that is based, I think, on a misidentified color found on an exhibits; it should be light gray, perhaps with some blue hue, not the grey-green they sell.

Regards

Massimo

[Seawinder]

I agree with Massimo that the safest path to relative accuracy is to use the AKAN lines. People may not be aware that they produce three different types of paint, all offering mostly the same colors: enamel, acrylic lacquer and aqueous acrylic. I generally use the aqueous acrylics (which seem to be quite similar to the Mr. Color paints) since they're readily available here in the USA and I'm not fond of aqueous acrylics generally. I have found slight differences between corresponding paints in the various lines -- I'd say the aqueous acrylic colors are likely to be darker than their corresponding colors in the other two lines. I used both enamel and acrylic lacquers on a MiG-21 project and found them to be virtually identical.

FWIW, I've found two close matches to AMT-4 Green in other brands: Mr. Color 126 Mitsubishi Cockpit Color is a near-dead match, and Model Master (enamel) FS 24127 Forest Green is also very close. Note this is darker, not lighter, than FS 34151.

Also FWIW, I have used AKAN acrylic lacquers OOB (no lightening) for at least two recent WW2 projects, one using AMT-4 and -6, the other AMT-11 and -12. The -11 and -12 especially looked dark coming out of the bottle, but once the whole paint job was completed, I think they look really good. I'll also say they are some of the nicest paints to apply that I've ever used. Here is a photo of each one, included only to give a visual impression of the AKAN paints.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Seawinder

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

Gents I appreciate the advice. I am uneasy about simply copying AKAN, and certainly uneasy about copying and arbitarily lightening them.

I will try to obtain a copy of the Russian research to begin with. I want something firm to work from. If what I end up with is like AKAN but a bit lighter then fine, but taking a set of AKAN paints to the factory and saying "I want these but a bit lighter" isn't research, it's guessing.

I know I sound difficult, but Colourcoats has a solid reputation generally for being of very high quality and faithful to the best research available. The VVS colours may be flawed at present, but to invest the money in revamping them they need to be based on something robust.

I have some Russian acquaintences. If I can get the Vaklamov & Orlov work I'll take it from there.

I'd be a bit miffed if someone simply copied our range. Infact I believe that has just happened, right down to the exact wording of the descriptions. It's the lazy way, and like cheating by copying school work, all discrepencies in the material copied is replicated.

I need the source of the information

[dragonlanceHR]

Then you need access to the Albom Nakrasok in Russian archives. There are also preserved sample cards showing the permissible variation.

IIRC from the discussions on ARC/HS/Britmodeler (Kari ?) there was a preserved copy of Albom Nakrasok in Finland that might be more accessible.

The Vakhlamov/Orlov book won't help you as it has no chips or LAB values.

Vedran

The milimeter brigade

[Seawinder]

Gents I appreciate the advice. I am uneasy about simply copying AKAN, and certainly uneasy about copying and arbitarily lightening them.

I will try to obtain a copy of the Russian research to begin with. I want something firm to work from. If what I end up with is like AKAN but a bit lighter then fine, but taking a set of AKAN paints to the factory and saying "I want these but a bit lighter" isn't research, it's guessing.

I know I sound difficult, but Colourcoats has a solid reputation generally for being of very high quality and faithful to the best research available. The VVS colours may be flawed at present, but to invest the money in revamping them they need to be based on something robust.

I have some Russian acquaintences. If I can get the Vaklamov & Orlov work I'll take it from there.

I'd be a bit miffed if someone simply copied our range. Infact I believe that has just happened, right down to the exact wording of the descriptions. It's the lazy way, and like cheating by copying school work, all discrepencies in the material copied is replicated.

I need the source of the information

Hi James. I applaud your considering revamping the Colourcoats VVS range because I think they really need it. I hope you'll steer clear of "arbitrarily lightening" at all. I'd much prefer the choice of whether or not to lighten paint to be left to the individual modeler. IMHO it's a lot easier to lighten paint perceived as being too dark than the opposite.

[spitfire]

This is be a taster of what you are getting into !

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234933995-vvs-colours-in-the-great-patriotic-war/?hl=akan

Cheers

Dennis

[Learstang]

James, I'm glad you're going to be redoing WEM's VVS line - they do unfortunately need it. It's nice to see that you're soliciting opinions from different sources, and looking at different sources, and not just relying upon one suspect source (Erik Pilawskii), as WEM apparently originally did. Pip (Seawinder), although I normally think the AKAN colours are a bit dark, I have to say they look quite nice on your two models (lovely models, by the way). I've used their acrylic lacquers (I can't abide aqueous acrylics, at least not for airbrushing), and I have to say that they sprayed very nicely.

Regards,

Jason

Edited February 4, 2016 by Learstang

[Massimo Tessitori]

I need the source of the information

Hi,

I suppose that going into Russia or Finland to see chips is a bit expensive, but you could find photos of the Nakrasok chips aside other known chips as FS, taken into the same shot.

Eventually you could contact Andrey Averin that has original documents and chips; I don't think that he'll send them to you, but you could ask him to photograph them aside other chips of which you have copy.

Anyway, all those chips have 60-70 years, so any hope of precision has to take into account a possible alteration of them. An example is the controversial shade of light blue A-28m, that looks as Sky from the Nakrasok, while is similar to AMT-7 from other chips.

Regards

Massimo

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

Thanks folks. A trip to Finland would be great but probably hard to justify! Your suggestion, Massimo is good. I don't need the originals in my possession, I just need confidence that something can be traced directly back to the source material.

The age of the chips is something we'll have to consider. Ultimately there's not a lot that can be done other than have expert opinion on reversing the aging, without the original formulae to reproduce the paint afresh as Kiroff did for German colours.

[Learstang]

Let me just reiterate that I think you're going about this the correct way, James. Best of luck! I have a few painted relics in my possession (the well-preserved top half of an Il-2 fin, most notably, with the original AMT-12 Dark Grey and AMT-4 Green still on it). If you need any help from me, just let me know.

Best Regards,

Jason

P.S. It also has some of the yellow-coloured wood putty present. That's a colour you might want to add, as it would have been present under the topcoats on wooden and wooden-covered Soviet aircraft.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Learstang

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

Hi Jason, where are you based?

I'd love to see originals.

[Learstang]

In the States, unfortunately, in Texas. I can send you some piccies of the rudder, with whatever paint swatches you'd like next to it, but first I need to purchase a new camera as my present one has just about given up the ghost. I'd love to help you out on this fine project of yours in any way. I also have some small fragments of the A-14 Steel Grey interior colour, but no surprises there - it's basically a dead neutral grey colour, for which I think Testors Model Master Neutral Gray is a good match. For what its worth, I use MM Dark Gunship Gray for the AMT-12 Dark Grey, MM Medium Gray for the AMT-11 Grey-Blue, MM Russian Topside Blue (discontinued I believe) for the AMT-7 Blue, MM Interior Green for the AMT-4 Green (perhaps a bit light in tone, but good in hue), and I'm still experimenting on the AMT-1 Light Brown, although I believe MM Israeli Armor Sand/Gray is a reasonable analogue.

Regards,

Jason