RAF/FAA F-35 weapons fit

[Simon Cornes]

Having just acquired the Trumpeter kit I’d be interested to know what the U.K. weapons fit is and whether there is any plan to fit the jet with pylons (‘beast’ mode).

I’m guessing AIM-120 and Paveway IV in the weapons bay. If pylons fitted then maybe ASRAAM with PWIV on central and inboard wing pylons. Possibly cruise missiles as an alternative. And what about a gun pod - I’m aware that the USMC have a podded gun on the centreline station. 
I look forward to receiving some clarification please!

Thanks

Simon

[fatalbert]

As far as i know,the UK hasn't procured the gun pod for its F-35's.

[Simon Cornes]

8 minutes ago, fatalbert said:

As far as i know,the UK hasn't procured the gun pod for its F-35's.

That surprises me. I know the SUU pod wasn’t ideal on the Phantom but the USMC seem to be able to use their Gatling, presumably air to ground. It’s the old ‘internal gun’ argument and we know how that ended the last time. I’m surprised it wasn’t included at the design stage but maybe it weighs too much? Knowing the RAF it will probably be acquired further down the line when we can afford to buy 4 or 5 pods!!

[McG]

Paveway IV, AMRAAM and ASRAAM according to this article.

 

Future weapons to be integrated are SPEAR 3 and Meteor, although the article mentions it will be a modified version of Meteor to fit within the weapons bay. 

[Simon Cornes]

10 minutes ago, McG said:

Paveway IV, AMRAAM and ASRAAM according to this article.

 

Future weapons to be integrated are SPEAR 3 and Meteor, although the article mentions it will be a modified version of Meteor to fit within the weapons bay. 

Thank you for that. When I mentioned cruise missiles I was thinking Storm Shadow as I believe Typhoons can carry that? I assume SPEAR is the Storm Shadow replacement? As for Meteor isn’t that basically a European AIM-120 ? I recall it being an option for non-RAF Typhoons a long time ago - at least with Revell anyway!!

[McG]

SPEAR is the Brimstone replacement I believe. 
 

I don’t know if there are plans to integrate Storm Shadow or its eventual replacement on F-35. 
 

From reading the Wikipedia article on Meteor, it seems to be a European developed ramjet powered AAM. 

 

[Simon Cornes]

16 minutes ago, McG said:

SPEAR is the Brimstone replacement I believe. 
 

I don’t know if there are plans to integrate Storm Shadow or its eventual replacement on F-35. 
 

From reading the Wikipedia article on Meteor, it seems to be a European developed ramjet powered AAM. 

 

Is it? To me Brimstone is just Hellfire on steroids so if thats what SPEAR is then it's nothing like a cruise missile! I'll obviously have to read around the subject a bit!

[McG]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPEAR_3

 

It seems that Spear 3 is the same size as Brimstone but is 100kg in weight v 50kg. 
 

Also has a loitering capability. 

[Simon Cornes]

Very much a precision strike weapon with minimal collateral damage effect? 

[Slater]

Interestingly, during recent evaluations the F-35's external gun pod was meeting it's specified accuracy requirements while the F-35A's fixed internal gun was not. Don't know if that's been addressed as of yet, but the gun system doesn't seem to be a high priority among other F-35 concerns.

[Simon Cornes]

54 minutes ago, Slater said:

Interestingly, during recent evaluations the F-35's external gun pod was meeting it's specified accuracy requirements while the F-35A's fixed internal gun was not. Don't know if that's been addressed as of yet, but the gun system doesn't seem to be a high priority among other F-35 concerns.

It’s odd isn’t it, especially as the centreline pylon doesn’t seem to be used for anything else. Good to know that the U.K. MoD could buy a few, knowing that they work well. I suppose it’s because the USMC jets are very much to support their ground forces whereas the RAF are more of a medium level operator where precision guided munitions are the name of the game with air to air missiles available if needed. But even so the Vietnam experience says you should give your aeroplanes a gun just so they aren’t defenceless when all the clever whizz bangs have all been used up. But what do I know?!  

[exdraken]

On 10/18/2023 at 4:30 PM, Simon Cornes said:

 As for Meteor isn’t that basically a European AIM-120 ?

I do not know specifics, but yes, it is an European active radar guided air to air missile. but it is ram jet powererd and supposedly much longer range than even the D model AMRAAMs.

 

[Steve McArthur]

There is some speculation that special purpose pods that use the gun pod's shape might be in development or service.

 

https://theaviationist.com/2012/07/10/fia12-f35-multimission-pod/

https://theaviationist.com/2022/03/21/f-35-gun-pod-ew/

 

The only thing Meteor shares with AIM-120 is the shape. Because so many aircraft were designed for conformal carriage of the AIM-120 this restricts the geometry of alternative missiles. The seeker, warhead and propulsion are all European developed. The USA did not participate in the development of Meteor because the F-22/F-35 are supposed to be able to sneak in close enough that the added range over the AIM-120 is unnecessary, i.e. Meteor was seen as a threat to their plans for stealth aircraft by the US military.

[Selwyn]

11 hours ago, Steve McArthur said:

There is some speculation that special purpose pods that use the gun pod's shape might be in development or service.

 

https://theaviationist.com/2012/07/10/fia12-f35-multimission-pod/

https://theaviationist.com/2022/03/21/f-35-gun-pod-ew/

 

The only thing Meteor shares with AIM-120 is the shape. Because so many aircraft were designed for conformal carriage of the AIM-120 this restricts the geometry of alternative missiles. The seeker, warhead and propulsion are all European developed. The USA did not participate in the development of Meteor because the F-22/F-35 are supposed to be able to sneak in close enough that the added range over the AIM-120 is unnecessary, i.e. Meteor was seen as a threat to their plans for stealth aircraft by the US military.

Sorry, but  its definately not the same shape, the intakes and the lack of mid body fins on meteor are the  standout visual differences!

 

Selwyn

[Simon Cornes]

36 minutes ago, Selwyn said:

Sorry, but  its definately not the same shape, the intakes and the lack of mid body fins on meteor are the  standout visual differences!

 

Selwyn

I imagine Steve was being vague when he said it was the same shape, ie its long and pointy at the front but the ram intake and different wing configuration of the Meteor mean its a bit different from about 6" from the tip of the nose to 6" in front of the exhaust!! Did I also read that it might need to be modified to fit the internal bay? 

As for the centreline pod, I suppose that would be okay where stealth wasn't a tactical requirement or if the airframe had wing pylons fitted but you'd think that the manufacturers would arrange for the contents of a Terma pod to be fitted into one of the internal weapons bays, possibly with bay doors modified with glazing for recce sensors? Would be good for Tac-R to have recce in one side and a missile and a bomb in the other? I must admit that the lack of an internal gun is a great pity but I see that the gun pod carried by the F-35C carries less than 200 rounds and I bet its even less with a USMC 'B' model? Maybe 40,000lb's isn't quite enough 'whumpffff' to lift and land an internal gun?

[exdraken]

1 hour ago, Simon Cornes said:

200 rounds

of 25 mm ammunition... not the standard US 20mm

 

The European fighters have some 120 round of 30mm...

 

2 hours ago, Selwyn said:

Sorry, but  its definately not the same shape, the intakes and the lack of mid body fins on meteor are the  standout visual differences!

At least it can be carried on the same fuselage stations on the Eurofighter. The Gripen uses it on pylon mounted launch rails, and the Rafale on a talker pylon on the Fuselage instead of the much smaller MICA RF missiles....

[Selwyn]

30 minutes ago, exdraken said:

of 25 mm ammunition... not the standard US 20mm

 

The European fighters have some 120 round of 30mm...

 

At least it can be carried on the same fuselage stations on the Eurofighter. The Gripen uses it on pylon mounted launch rails, and the Rafale on a talker pylon on the Fuselage instead of the much smaller MICA RF missiles....

Yes but but the EF  launcher had to be modified to be able to carry both type  missiles.

Selwyn

[Simon Cornes]

3 hours ago, Selwyn said:

Yes but but the EF  launcher had to be modified to be able to carry both type  missiles.

Selwyn

Is that for all users or just the RAF? 

[Steve McArthur]

11 hours ago, Selwyn said:

Sorry, but  its definately not the same shape, the intakes and the lack of mid body fins on meteor are the  standout visual differences!

I don't know if I was too vague for you or you are being intentionally obtuse.  The conformal carriage on Eurofighter forced design constraints on the shape of Meteor to be compatible with the launchers designed for AIM-120. This forced length and diameter limits on Meteor, so the basic tube is virtually the same. Both have a 7 in diameter and 12 ft length (or 178mm dia x 3.65m length). This is what I meant by "same shape" maybe "compatible shape" would have been better. The tail fins were also probably constrained to be of similar size, shape and location as the AIM-120. The tail fins look closer to the original AIM-120A/B variant which is probably why there are fit issues on the F-35. The fins on AIM-120C/D+ were clipped specifically for internal carriage in F-22 and the F-35 was designed for this size. The forward fins were apparently not needed on Meteor with the ramjet inlets functioning as lifting bodies in their place, but some of the original design concepts that eventually merged into Meteor did have forward fins. Their absence would not impact launcher compatibility, so I didn't feel it worth mentioning. The ram inlets and ducting is positioned to avoid compatibility issues, but I'm not sure that works with a recessed mount like on the Tornado F3 or Phantom. I doubt these older platforms were even considered when Meteor was designed and there are only a few Meteor customers with these older planes still in service.

 

8 hours ago, Selwyn said:

Yes but but the EF  launcher had to be modified to be able to carry both type  missiles.

In what way?  Meteor was that it was specifically designed for Eurofighter. Assuming that's what you mean by EF since you were replying to a comment that included Gripen and EF has a different connotation there. As a new weapon it had to go through a weapon integration program and the software in the plane needed an update, but mechanically it should have been no change. From what I've read on Meteor most airforces just needed a software update to start using it.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Steve McArthur

[Stephen]

"Beast mode" on a VX-23 F-35B launching from HMS Prince Of Wales  with UK weapons loadout.

[Simon Cornes]

5 minutes ago, Stephen said:

"Beast mode" on a VX-23 F-35B launching from HMS Prince Of Wales  with UK weapons loadout.

Is there a photo?

[Selwyn]

5 hours ago, Steve McArthur said:

I don't know if I was too vague for you or you are being intentionally obtuse.  The conformal carriage on Eurofighter forced design constraints on the shape of Meteor to be compatible with the launchers designed for AIM-120. This forced length and diameter limits on Meteor, so the basic tube is virtually the same. Both have a 7 in diameter and 12 ft length (or 178mm dia x 3.65m length). This is what I meant by "same shape" maybe "compatible shape" would have been better. The tail fins were also probably constrained to be of similar size, shape and location as the AIM-120. The tail fins look closer to the original AIM-120A/B variant which is probably why there are fit issues on the F-35. The fins on AIM-120C/D+ were clipped specifically for internal carriage in F-22 and the F-35 was designed for this size. The forward fins were apparently not needed on Meteor with the ramjet inlets functioning as lifting bodies in their place, but some of the original design concepts that eventually merged into Meteor did have forward fins. Their absence would not impact launcher compatibility, so I didn't feel it worth mentioning. The ram inlets and ducting is positioned to avoid compatibility issues, but I'm not sure that works with a recessed mount like on the Tornado F3 or Phantom. I doubt these older platforms were even considered when Meteor was designed and there are only a few Meteor customers with these older planes still in service.

 

In what way?  Meteor was that it was specifically designed for Eurofighter. Assuming that's what you mean by EF since you were replying to a comment that included Gripen and EF has a different connotation there. As a new weapon it had to go through a weapon integration program and the software in the plane needed an update, but mechanically it should have been no change. From what I've read on Meteor most airforces just needed a software update to start using it.

The Eurofighter was designed long  before Meteor existed. The launchers had to be optimised to enable carriage of either Meteor or AIM120. 

 

Selwyn

[NoSG0]

Fully loaded F-35 here

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/royal-navy-hms-prince-wales-113039115.html?guccounter=1

[Simon Cornes]

4 hours ago, NoSG0 said:

Fully loaded F-35 here

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/royal-navy-hms-prince-wales-113039115.html?guccounter=1

Interesting. If you look at the photos of the bombs then I’d say that are GU-12’s, not Paveway IV’s due to the lack of GPS aerials. But then it is a USMC jet so it would be. Equally the 5th and 6th bombs were the same as the first 4 whereas the text referred to 1,000 lbs bombs carried internally so not 5 and 6 in the photo. Finally it’s interesting to see the different ‘sit’ of the bombs on the pylons with one pair parallel with the deck and the others pointing slightly downwards. Not sure how the journalist gets that tonnage of weaponry with such a load out though!

[Hook]

10 hours ago, Selwyn said:

The Eurofighter was designed long  before Meteor existed. The launchers had to be optimised to enable carriage of either Meteor or AIM120. 

And since the AMRAAM had to match the dimensions of the AIM-7 Sparrow, to enable carriage in the underfuselage recesses of the Phantom, the Meteor is still influenced by the design of a fighter that made its first flight in rhe 1950's. 

 

Cheers,

 

Andre