marvinneko Posted March 6, 2023 Share Posted March 6, 2023 I finished Aerodrome of Democracy, a fascinating book about the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan where Canada spent a ton of $ training air crew from Canada, UK, NZ, USA, as well as Poland, Belgium and we even had a Norwegian contingent with their own school. I'm not able to work on my Hurricane as I am trying to complete a major work project. But I will be attending a big show end of March and would value input on kits to prioritize (and kits to avoid). I am specifically interested in training aircraft 1941-1942. My great uncle was a wireless op/air gunner training in 1941 so he would've gone to wireless school (I think Manitoba) and been oriented with a Norseman flight, then trained on radio in a Tiger Moth. After that he went for gunner training in Saskatchewan, most likely in a Battle. I am thinking both tug and chauffeured student were Battles? Not sure if a Lysander was used at that time. Then in mid 42 he trained on Venturas in New Brunswick. After that, unknown... I traced his classmates to Ventura squadrons but not him. Kits of interest: Tiger Moth (pref. Menasco Moth 82c with canopies.. or maybe I can convert). The LHS has a 1/72 Pavla but I worry it is tiny and difficult for a newbie and a bigger scale would make more sense? Norduyn Norseman Fairey Battle (I assume the FFROM is the one to wait for) Lysander Ventura At the same time he trained on Venturas there were Avro Ansons at his base. Cansos were also flying around searching for crashes. Notes on good kits, tips on tricky ones, or other BCATP suggestions all welcome. I'd like to make decent decisions on the spot if possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDSModeller Posted March 6, 2023 Share Posted March 6, 2023 56 minutes ago, marvinneko said: Kits of interest: Tiger Moth (pref. Menasco Moth 82c with canopies.. or maybe I can convert). The LHS has a 1/72 Pavla but I worry it is tiny and difficult for a newbie and a bigger scale would make more sense? Norduyn Norseman Fairey Battle (I assume the FFROM is the one to wait for) Lysander Ventura As Alluded to in your post above, from the RNZAF Museum (obviously of Kiwi's, but with RCAF aircraft (EATS/BCAPT) Hope they may be of help? Fairy Battle Unknown Bombing and Gunnery School, Canada. RNZAF Official - Air Force - Museum of New Zealand - Used with Permissions Believed to be at No. 9 Bombing and Gunnery School, RCAF Station Mont Joli, Canada. RNZAF Official - Air Force - Museum of New Zealand - Used with Permissions Unknown location in Canada - Written on reverse - One of the Fairies of Dunkirk, battered, but still flying." RNZAF Official - Air Force - Museum of New Zealand - Used with Permissions Battle '36' at No. 4 Bombing and Gunnery School, RCAF Station Fingal. RNZAF Official - Air Force - Museum of New Zealand - Used with Permissions Sharkmouth painted, Fairey Battle gunnery training aircraft in Canada. RNZAF Official - Air Force - Museum of New Zealand - Used with Permissions Norduyn Norseman Unknown RCAF Station Canada RNZAF Official - Air Force - Museum of New Zealand - Used with Permissions Tiger Moth Tiger Moth "6". Believed to be at No. 6 Service Flying Training School, Dunnville, Canada. RNZAF Official - Air Force - Museum of New Zealand - Used with Permissions Ventura Probably outside your period of interest - No. 1 General Reconnaissance School, RCAF Station Summerville, Prince Edward Island circa 1944 RNZAF Official - Air Force - Museum of New Zealand - Used with Permissions Avro Anson Course 46 Observers Portage La Prairie Manitoba." in front of an Anson. RNZAF Official - Air Force - Museum of New Zealand - Used with Permissions Anson FP941 at No. 3 Service Flying Training School, RCAF Station Calgary. RNZAF Official - Air Force - Museum of New Zealand - Used with Permissions RNZAF Student Observers walking to aircraft at No. 4 Air Observers School, London, Ontario, March 20 1941, during BCATP training in Canada." RNZAF Official - Air Force - Museum of New Zealand - Used with Permissions Hopefully of help to you aircraft wise? Hopefully some of our Canadian members can assist with RCAF Station information where missing? Regards Alan 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted March 6, 2023 Share Posted March 6, 2023 Hi I think all kit subjects are avsilable in 1:72 or 1:48 but if you dont mind mixing scales matchbox did a 1:32 tiger moth and lysander then the CA battle in 1:48 and revell ventura in 1:48 cheers jerry 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbody Posted March 6, 2023 Share Posted March 6, 2023 If you haven't seen it yet, this site may be useful/interesting: http://rcafcampborden.blogspot.com/ Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Hemsley Posted March 6, 2023 Share Posted March 6, 2023 (edited) Quote Kits of interest: Tiger Moth (pref. Menasco Moth 82c with canopies.. or maybe I can convert). The LHS has a 1/72 Pavla but I worry it is tiny and difficult for a newbie and a bigger scale would make more sense? Norduyn Norseman Fairey Battle (I assume the FFROM is the one to wait for) Lysander Ventura To keep a constant scale (1/72), I'd suggest the following: Tiger/Menesco Moth - the Pavla kit. Yes it is small, but so was the actual aircraft. The Pavla kit (DH. 82c boxing - #72052) has the engine front for the Menesco Moth as well as the front for the Tiger Moth, plus it include the proper canopies. I'm by no means an expert on the RCAF Tiger Moths, but I understand the kit also has the proper upper wing as compared to the RAF versions. I'm in the same boat as you are (biplanes & I don't really get along), but if you want a 72nd RCAF Tiger Moth.... Norseman - easy choice. In 1/72 all you have is the Matchbox kit. Fairey Battle - Wait for the FFROM kit? That's what I'm doing. I've got the MPM kit, but there's enough issues between that & the original Airfix kit that I'm waiting & hoping. Lysander - Again, my preference is the Pavla kit. Besides the amount of detail worked into the kit, it has provision to expose the wheels like seen so often on RCAF Lysander - (presumably to prevent build-up of snow, etc.), something not seen on the earlier kits. I don't have the Dora Wings kit of the Lysander III, but looking at the instructions, it does appear 'challenging' - more of a challenge compared to the Pavla kit judging by the kit instructions & online WIP's. If you can find them, Frog, Airfix & Matchbox did release their own kits, back in the day. They may be simpler, but judging from some RFI's I've seen online ... with some TLC, each can result in a nice looking model. Ventura - Minicraft is your only choice in 1/72. Depending how accurate you need t have the final build, there is a fair bit of aftermarket in the form of decals & resin available. Check the Hannants site & enter 1/72 (scale) & Ventura for search subject, to see what's available. Further BCTAP suggestions: Airspeed Oxford - Pavla or Tasman Avro Anson - Special Hobby or the earlier tool Aifix kit. Both are Anson Mk.I. Unfortunately to end up with the definitive RCAF Anson, the Mk.V you'll need to start by starting a new fuselage, not to mention all the other airframe changes. However, the RCAF did employ other versions of the Anson, each requiring some conversion, but nothing like the Anson Mk.V. Cessna Crane - just one choice in 1/72 really, the Kovozavody Prostejoy Cessna Crane Mk.Ia kit. As it says on the Hannants site, it is not the Pavla kit - it's much better. Just type in "Cessna Crane" & 1/72 scale into the search. Much easier than trying to type out "Kovozavody Prostejoy". Fleet Finch - Again only 1 choice ... Frrom-Azur in the 'Fleet Finch 16' boxing (#FR0003). The kit is an RCAF Finch, right out of the box. Like the Tiger Moth, it's small, but not nearly as daunting. If I could do one (see aforementioned comments about bi-planes & me), anyone could. Injection & resin parts with a vac-form canopy. N.A/Nordyun Harvard II - Special Hobby 'Harvard II' boxing. All you need for a RCAF Harvard II including the proper extended canopy & exhaust. Failing that, you can always use either the Heller or Academy T-6G kits with the Falcon Harvard II canopy & a scratched extended exhaust. The SH kit is the Academy kit with injection canopies vs vac-form. N.A. Yale - limited run, but the RS kit is all that's available in 72nd. I've done one & while it does have its 'challenging' assembly (ie. the cockpit interior), the result is quite favourable for the scale. Bolingbroke - Airfix Blenheim IV. There is some conversion from the Blenheim IV kit to a Bolingbroke & the kit canopy (sans side blisters) is right for a Bolingbroke Mk.I. The later marks were commonly seen performing duties in the BCATP. MPM also do a Blenheim IV kit as did Airfix back in the day. Fleet Cornell - Special Hobby released it as a "PT26 Cornell" (SH72038) in 2002, one of their earlier limited run kits. I can't comment on the build, I haven't done, mine yet., but it looks quite nice. You'll have to source your own RCAF decals. Northrop Nomad Mk.I - Special Hobby do a RCAF boxing (SH72292) with decals for 2 TT aircraft. Catalina (PBY-5)/Canso (PBY-5a) - You mentioned the Catalina's in your original post, so ... my preference for both has got to be the Academy kits. Not perfect (could use a bit more interior detailing), but far better than the earlier Rvell & Airfix kits (IMO). Although there is a resin aftermarket set to provide the proper sized engines for the Academy kits (Roo Models), it's personal taste as to whether it's really needed - the size difference is quite small. Scott Edited March 6, 2023 by Scott Hemsley 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted March 6, 2023 Share Posted March 6, 2023 I've made most of the above listing including the Cornell which you don't list and was produced in 1/72 by Special Hobby several years ago. Not a bad little kit. The Finch you mention is a little gem when made. Get one if you can. Good luck with this venture. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted March 6, 2023 Share Posted March 6, 2023 (edited) Hi check your lysander mark first, pavla is a MkII i think most rcaf lysander tugs were MkIIIT cheers jerry Edited March 6, 2023 by brewerjerry 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Hemsley Posted March 6, 2023 Share Posted March 6, 2023 brewerjerry: True enough. However my preference for the Lysander stands. Whether I end-up doing an operational Mk.II or converting it into a Mk.IIIT remains to be seen. In any case, but you'll be well advised to check your references for any of the aircraft I mentioned. The RCAF used multiple versions of a few of the types mentioned & all could be seen on HWE airfields at some time. Scott 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted March 6, 2023 Share Posted March 6, 2023 Hi Just in case for those that don't know the website to search rcaf serial/ type/ unit history / fate cheers jerry https://caspir.warplane.com/ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbody Posted March 6, 2023 Share Posted March 6, 2023 Stuff from @Carl V: 1. I have been following this thread with considerable interest. The fact that modellers may be interested in aircraft of the BCATP and the RCAF's HWE is a song in my heart. It is also one of the few subjects that I actually know a little about. 2. I fear that I have nothing intelligent to say about kits and their availability or suitability. I fear that it has been at least a third of a century since I last put cement to plastic. (By the way, is that what one still does?) Maybe that should banish me from a modelling forum. 3. I just want to talk about BCATP aircraft at this time. Just for amusement’s sake, I have made a list of types that served in this organization in sufficient numbers to qualify. Anson, Battle, Beaufort, Bolingbroke, Cansolina, Cornell, Crane, Dakota, Finch, Fort, Hampden, Harvard, Hudson, Hurricane, Kittyhawk, Liberator, Lysander, Mitchell, Mosquito, Nomad, Norseman, Oxford, Seamew, Stearman, Swordfish, Tiger Moth, Ventura, Yale. 4. A prime reference source for modellers is, of course, contemporary photographs. As far as the BCATP is concerned, there are quite a few out there, both in official holdings and in the possession of individuals who are willing to share, e.g., our generous friend LDSModeller. 5. May I suggest another good source of these images, my humble self. I have quite a few hundred photos of BCATP aircraft – maybe not quite a thousand, though I have never bothered to count. These are all freely available to my friends (and anybody else who wants them). As I may have mentioned (possibly too frequently) I am halfway between 83 and 84, and I want to get as much of my stuff out there as possible. 6. For example, I am in the middle of sending out to several friends my collection of a little over 50 BCATP Battles. Now that I have revisited this, I can freely say that the variety of modifications and markings would gast anyone's flabber, possibly utterly. Another thing I want to share is a collection of 26 photos of TT Lysanders. Anyone interested? 7. As regards your great uncle's training experience, if he did his wireless training in Manitoba, it would, presumably, have been at 3 Wireless School, Winnipeg. This school's standard wireless trainer progressed through the war from Menasco Moth to Fort, then Yale and, near the end of the war, Harvard. However, all four Wireless Schools always had a half-dozen Norseman on strength. The students would do their group training in the Norseman with an instructor and then move on to the two-seat wireless trainer. 8. To finish off what is probably an over-long harangue, I attach a number of photos of Wireless School Norseman. The last two images show Norseman 2465 which caught fire when starting up. All of these aircraft are from 2 WS, Calgary, but I feel that it is a nearfetched assumption that those at 3 WS were identical, and it should be fairly simple to obtain some registrations. Carl Chris, for Carl 4 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 Hi Since moving to canada i have found researching the rcaf ww2 aircraft addictive I have mainly got interested in those on Pat Bay, Boundary bay and abbotsford but find some other amazing like the Battle Mk. IIT R7439 with Cyclone radial engine and turret for example also the three halifax V at a tech school, and the stirling and lancaster that visited western canada in 1944 cheers jerry 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marvinneko Posted March 7, 2023 Author Share Posted March 7, 2023 @LDSModeller wonderful photos! Thanks for sharing these. I am amazed at how Kiwis and Aussies have some great BCATP resources these days. @brewerjerry thanks for your inputs. What is "CA" for Battle? Love caspir database. I think the Hamilton museum is hosting it now and changed the user interface. @dogsbody yes thanks you shared this one with me @Scott Hemsley wow thanks for this detailed list of kit notes! very helpful. Nomad is a new one for me. I like the looks of that one. @Paul J thanks for the tip @dogsbody and Carl Vincent - as usual thanks so much for this info. v interesting photos of Norsemen. I look forward to seeing the moth, battle and norseman at museums, hopefully this spring. I am of course interested in your photos. I wouldn't want to create a burden. Are they digital? I could always buy you a USB stick and send it from Amazon. As a bit of background, I have been researching my family history for many years and my great uncle's career more closely over the last year with the plan (I know, I know) of writing a book. The twist is it uses his life before, during and after the BCATP as the basis for a mystery. Lots of interesting goings-on at bases to work with... murders, accidents and whatnot. I got a few unpublished "literary" books out of my system a few decades ago and my first mystery manuscript a decade or so ago had some nice comments from an editor urging me to try again closer to genre. Since then I've written another one and am trimming the 4th draft to send to agents. Hopefully this summer. My great uncle mystery would be the book after that. For me building the models is connecting with him and his experiences so I would love to spend more time studying their insides, outsides, and contexts. I am amazed at the britmodellers here and what they can do and I would love to work more closely with photos and diagrams. In my fever dreams I see a series of simple dioramas to capture training moments I've found in old magazines put out by the training school bases. Each moment captures a key step in his training. This means I am interested in BCATP texts, images and resources that provide that kind of colour. I find that modelling provides the kind of hands-on focus I need outside of staring at a computer screen for work or hobby. I realize this is probably many years in the making as I have other things to do as well 😛 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marvinneko Posted March 7, 2023 Author Share Posted March 7, 2023 Some images that inspired me. RAF Fairey Battle checking gunnery results in drogue for coloured paint. Menasco Moth at 3 Wireless Training School with wireless trainee in back seat. Images from the Winnipeg WAG magazine from Dec 41 put out by the school. This is the time my great uncle would've trained there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 Hi sorry CA clasic airframes battle 1:48 kits they did a couple of types presume you have seen this a fav clip from captain of the clouds cheers jerry 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 That footage from what must be one of the best aviation films ever reveals so many variations of markings and colours. Yale's with French rounders, Harvard's with a mix of roundel on wings and so on. I would love to get a copy of Captains of the Clouds for sure. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alt-92 Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 Did I spot some Chesapeakes in there as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbody Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 18 minutes ago, alt-92 said: Did I spot some Chesapeakes in there as well? Probably Nomads. Chris 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marvinneko Posted March 8, 2023 Author Share Posted March 8, 2023 22 hours ago, brewerjerry said: Hi sorry CA clasic airframes battle 1:48 kits they did a couple of types presume you have seen this a fav clip from captain of the clouds cheers jerry Wow, thanks! Jaw dropping footage for me! There is a film as well that shows the Lockheed factory making Hudsons. Wings for Eagles? Heard about it but haven't seen it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marvinneko Posted March 8, 2023 Author Share Posted March 8, 2023 20 hours ago, Paul J said: That footage from what must be one of the best aviation films ever reveals so many variations of markings and colours. Yale's with French rounders, Harvard's with a mix of roundel on wings and so on. I would love to get a copy of Captains of the Clouds for sure. It's available for streaming from various pay sources as well as ok.ru which asks for a login but can be played without it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marvinneko Posted March 27, 2023 Author Share Posted March 27, 2023 Wanted to express my thanks. Went to Heritagecon 15 at the Warplane Heritage Museum outside Hamilton, ON Canada thanks to @RET. As a carless city mouse I got up at 6am and took uber, GO train, GO bus, city bus, and taxi to get there. It was a fun hunter gatherer experience to go up and down the vendor tables scanning 100s of kits on tables, in bins, on the floor. I was amazed at the many contest entries... the craftsmanship was spectacular. And I got to see some nice old planes as well (although a volunteer blew me off when I asked to get closer to the two tiger moths pushed out of the way for the show and roped off. They were only 20ft away but the view was blocked .) The museum also has a radio room (my great uncle was WOAG) but I could only peer through the glass at the equipment inside. I was quite surprised to find stuff on my list and v cheap because they were all open box and vendors were trying to get rid of the stuff. I was told as much by several of them and as I stood there scanning their table they would knock another $5 off the price. Three of the items were only CAD$5 each. Everything together was less than the price of 1 new Pavla Tiger Moth at my LHS. Pavla Tiger Moth 82A Pavla Tiger Moth 82C Airfix Anson 1 (1987 1/72) Testors Hawk Lysander (1967 1/48) Academy PV1 Ventura (1/72) (mostly built and painted, an estate kit) + a vacform conversion kit for an Airfix Hudson to Lodestar (in the Ventura box) ... not sure what to do with that So thanks to all of you! And to Britmodeller in general which has shown me there's plenty of fun to be had being more open minded about what a kit can be... ie. a canvas to work with and explore vs simply assemble. Now I get to seek out sample builds and see how I can make the most of these things. Inspired by @Brigbeale I'd love to try to do a restoration on the Ventura. It is actually well done and I was told some master modeller had made it and died before finishing it. But I want to convert it to a Ventura trainer which means trying to pull it apart. I guess this is how a "stash" happens It's a little tempting to go to more of these sorts of things and build up my little BCATP world. Having a theme and historical interest keeps things focused. As an aside I'm reading "In for a penny in for a pound" by Hewer, the story of a Canadian wireless op air gunner in Bomber Command joining in 1940, which has provided a wonderful background to that role and that time. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbody Posted March 27, 2023 Share Posted March 27, 2023 If you're up for some provincial travel, thee are other aviation museums in Ontario: https://www.museumsontario.ca/MayisMuseumMonth2021/aviation-museums#:~:text=Aviation Museums 1 Spirit of Flight Aviation Museum,Canadian Flight 8 Jet Aircraft Museum More items Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marvinneko Posted March 27, 2023 Author Share Posted March 27, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, dogsbody said: If you're up for some provincial travel, thee are other aviation museums in Ontario: https://www.museumsontario.ca/MayisMuseumMonth2021/aviation-museums#:~:text=Aviation Museums 1 Spirit of Flight Aviation Museum,Canadian Flight 8 Jet Aircraft Museum More items Chris Thanks Chris. I went to the Billy Bishop house probably 25 years ago. I remember it being kind of an odd place, more about his home vs his exploits. I got engaged in the front seat of a Stearman flying from the CASM in Rockcliffe and touring over the Gatineau Hills. The other ones are new to me. I might go to CASM this Summer if I visit the parents. They are getting quite senior. There's supposed to be a Fairey Battle in their extra hangar and I'd like to take another look at a Link trainer. They had one at the CWHM event but it's not really set up in a way that lets you look at it. They have a big mannequin standing in front of it blocking the view! One of the many odd choices in that place. Edited March 27, 2023 by marvinneko 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbody Posted March 27, 2023 Share Posted March 27, 2023 2 hours ago, marvinneko said: Thanks Chris. I went to the Billy Bishop house probably 25 years ago. I remember it being kind of an odd place, more about his home vs his exploits. I got engaged in the front seat of a Stearman flying from the CASM in Rockcliffe and touring over the Gatineau Hills. The other ones are new to me. I might go to CASM this Summer if I visit the parents. They are getting quite senior. There's supposed to be a Fairey Battle in their extra hangar and I'd like to take another look at a Link trainer. They had one at the CWHM event but it's not really set up in a way that lets you look at it. They have a big mannequin standing in front of it blocking the view! One of the many odd choices in that place. Take lots of photos! Chris 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RET Posted March 27, 2023 Share Posted March 27, 2023 Glad you enjoyed Heritagecon - it was a bit overwhelming at times and I've never seen it so well attended. Glad to hear you were also able to secure some deals - there was lots there to see. I'll warn you - there's another show coming up at the end of May and it might be a bit easier for you to get to: Torcan Model Show 2023 brought to you by Peel Scale Modelers - torcanscalemodelshow.com. you might be able to take the TTC to Kipling or Islington and then a cab. See what you think, Cheers - ret (you may have seen my Space Shuttle stack and Apollo CSM at the show) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FG2Si Posted March 27, 2023 Share Posted March 27, 2023 24 minutes ago, RET said: (you may have seen my Space Shuttle stack and Apollo CSM at the show) Was this yours? Nicely done shuttle stack. Did you do the cutaway one as well? That was truly impressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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