D-Day reference thread

[Enzo the Magnificent]

Post your reference information here. Please note if posting artwork or photos you must either be the copyright holder or have the copyright holder's permission to post.  

[Brad]

It's interesting doing some further reading on the air combat over France and the beaches during Overlord, you don't really think much of it as most fighters for the Luftwaffe were withdrawn to defend against the bombing of Germany. However the Luftwaffe actually achieved a 2:1 kill ratio over the allies over France from June 6th to June 30th. Just under 1000 fighters shot down between the 2nd TAF, 8th and 9th Air Forces. Add the 200-300 heavy bombers lost over France, the allies lost at least 1,200 aircraft. The Luftwaffe lost 646 aircraft in the same period. Although they did well, total losses for operational aircraft for the allies was less than 10%, while Luftwaffe losses were over 50%. I found that interesting.

[Valkyrie]

Can anyone help with this. I have just received by decal sheet for Kurt Bühligens 190, but on the same D-Day sheet, Priller’s 190 has a bar and chevron...I thought it was black 13 he flew over the beaches? 

 

[dnl42]

On 6/1/2019 at 2:07 AM, Brad said:

Although they did well, total losses for operational aircraft for the allies was less than 10%, while Luftwaffe losses were over 50%. I found that interesting.

Indeed.

 

I also found Bodenplatte interesting for similar reasons. It was apparently the Luftwaffe's largest strategic offensive during the war, and destroyed a large number of Allied aircraft. But, the Allied aircraft were mostly on the ground, were replaced within a week or so, and did nothing to support German ground forces during the Battle of the Bulge. Also like the above, the loss Luftwaffe of aircrew (~200 killed or captured) was far more critical. 

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

4 hours ago, Valkyrie said:

Priller’s 190 has a bar and chevron...I thought it was black 13 he flew over the beaches? 

I will check my references on Priller but i think that may be correct fo June-6th. His 109e was Yellow 1, the Fw 190 A3 and A5 were Black 13. Im thinking as a Kommodore he was using the Rank chevrons on his plane along with his playing card artwork. 

 

Edit: i think maybe youre correct found this photo. Dated France 04/44. 

 

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Fw-190A/JG26-Stab/pages/Focke-Wulf-Fw-190A8-JG26-(B13-+-)-Josef-Priller-Rambuillet-France-1944-04.html

 

Edited June 3, 2019 by Corsairfoxfouruncle

[Valkyrie]

Wow that’s quite a good photo, no doubt black 13, I have the black 13 decals too but wonder will the chevron count for this GB and what would I call it label it..

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Its entirely possible he had more than one plane ? Adolf Galland had two 109F's on the Eastern front, each one armed differently. Black 13 may have been his favorite but maybe have been in a maintenance cycle ? 

7 minutes ago, Valkyrie said:

but wonder will the chevron count for this GB and what would I call it label it..

 Not sure what you're asking ? Are you asking is it mandatory you build the Black chevron 190 as it is listed as a D-day plane ? If so i don't think thats necessary, since the group build covers June 6th through August 30th. Priller most likely flew Black 13 in that time frame ? His official ranking was "Geschwaderkommodore". If its a title you are needing ? 

[Valkyrie]

Was wondering if the bar and chevron was an error or if it was one of his markings during Normandy campaign, is it eligible. I’ve always wanted to do Prillers beach straf aircraft which was black 13, I’m just wondering where -+> fits in and if it qualifies for the GB. Bit of research next few nights but hoped someone would know?

Didn’t know that bout Galland...another ace I’d like to build his range of ac now...

 

Thanks Dennis 

Edited June 3, 2019 by Valkyrie

[Foxbat]

1 hour ago, Valkyrie said:

Was wondering if the bar and chevron was an error or if it was one of his markings during Normandy campaign, is it eligible. I’ve always wanted to do Prillers beach straf aircraft which was black 13, I’m just wondering where -+> fits in and if it qualifies for the GB. Bit of research next few nights but hoped someone would know?

Didn’t know that bout Galland...another ace I’d like to build his range of ac now...

 

Thanks Dennis 

I was intrigued by this so I had a ferret about and I think I have the beginnings of an answer. There are two different aircraft with Priller's playing card emblem in June 1944:

 

Fw 190A-8 marked 13 -+- Werk Nummer 170346

Fw 190A-6 marked <-+- Werk Nummer 530120

 

I have no proof, but it would seem a reasonable guess that the A-6 carried a variation of the official rank markings for the Kommodore (see a little way down here: Kommdore) whilst Black 13 was his personal aircraft and both were on the strength of JG26 at the same time. In addition, the A-6 has a white fuselage cross infilled with RLM 75 while Black 13 has standard black and white crosses - enough differences to suggest a simple mistake on the decal sheet is unlikely. As to which one was used on which day, I have no idea at this point. It does look like both are eligible for this GB though.

 

Andy

Edited June 3, 2019 by Foxbat

[Valkyrie]

2 hours ago, Foxbat said:

I was intrigued by this so I had a ferret about and I think I have the beginnings of an answer. There are two different aircraft with Priller's playing card emblem in June 1944:

 

Fw 190A-8 marked 13 -+- Werk Nummer 170346

Fw 190A-6 marked <-+- Werk Nummer 530120

 

I have no proof, but it would seem a reasonable guess that the A-6 carried a variation of the official rank markings for the Kommodore (see a little way down here: Kommdore) whilst Black 13 was his personal aircraft and both were on the strength of JG26 at the same time. In addition, the A-6 has a white fuselage cross infilled with RLM 75 while Black 13 has standard black and white crosses - enough differences to suggest a simple mistake on the decal sheet is unlikely. As to which one was used on which day, I have no idea at this point. It does look like both are eligible for this GB though.

 

Andy

That’s brilliant Andy, thanks so much. I have no idea how you guys find this information and I have been off all day looking. I found one photo of the chevron aircraft, I guess I will have to build both, but least I can say they were both on strength in June 44 at JG26. Now for the differences in A-6/A-8. Thanks again

[Foxbat]

15 minutes ago, Valkyrie said:

That’s brilliant Andy, thanks so much. I have no idea how you guys find this information and I have been off all day looking. I found one photo of the chevron aircraft, I guess I will have to build both, but least I can say they were both on strength in June 44 at JG26. Now for the differences in A-6/A-8. Thanks again

All the A-6 info is from Hannants listing of your decal sheet. The other info came from image search results on Google - there are a couple of lovely big profiles of Black 13 out there.

 

Just had a search for pictures of the A-6 and it's amazing the things Google turns up. Here's a review of a Hasegawa dual combo that includes both the A-6 and A-8. You'll never guess where it's hidden  

 

Review

 

Andy

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Sorry about this delay @Valkyrie... I put this in wimbledon99's thread by mistake yesterday. 

 

"Think i will move the conversation to your build thread. Not the best but photo is dated 05/44. 

 

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Fw-190A/JG26-Stab/pages/Focke-Wulf-Fw-190A8-JG26-(B13-+-)-Josef-Priller-Rambuillet-France-1944-05.html

 

Heres a perfect shot of Priller in June ? 

 

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Fw-190A/JG26-Stab/pages/Focke-Wulf-Fw-190A8-JG26-(B13-+-)-Josef-Priller-Rambuillet-France-1944-06.html

 

All the info from here ? 

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Fw-190A/JG26-Stab.html

 

I will keep looking for more info, let ne know what else i can help you look for ?"

 

Dennis

 

 

[Valkyrie]

Thanks @Corsairfoxfouruncle I did see it on Wimbledon’s too and made great in roads from these points. I managed to find a chevron and bar pic for Priller, I’ve been up quite late ha. I think I will be doing at least one of Priller’s ac, prob go for the Kommodore chevron as black 13 already popular

[Foxbat]

Just idle speculation at this point, but does anyone know if the change from jackboots to shorter ones was universal across all branches of the Heer by June 1944? I have a something in mind but the only figures I can find to go with it all have long boots.

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

3 hours ago, Foxbat said:

Just idle speculation at this point, but does anyone know if the change from jackboots to shorter ones was universal across all branches of the Heer by June 1944? I have a something in mind but the only figures I can find to go with it all have long boots.

I would think so ? However supply chains were constantly interrupted and unit's were being moved constantly. I have to think not every soldier or even unit would get rid of boots unless they absolutely needed to be replaced ? I'm guessing you can still use the longer boots.

Edited June 7, 2019 by Corsairfoxfouruncle

[Foxbat]

50 minutes ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

I would think so ? However supply chains were constantly interrupted and unit's were being moved constantly. I have to think not every soldier or even unit would get rid of boots unless they absolutely needed to be replaced ? I'm guessing you can still use the longer boots.

Really pleased about that. They're very good figures and even though I'd be using them out of place (they're designed to be in a vehicle, but sitting is sitting), they'll really enhance the model I want to use them with. 

 

Time is the question now. Never enough, and I'm famous for not finishing thi

 

Andy

[Robert Stuart]

This wikipedia article might help

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniforms_of_the_Heer_(1935–1945)#Boots

Jackboots

"However, as late as fall 1944 depots were encouraged to issue Marschstiefel [jackboots] to infantry and artillery, to the extent they were available."

 

Ankle boots

"From 1941 Schnürschuhe [ankle boots] were authorized for combat units as well, and the only footgear issued to new recruits; by 1943 their wear had become universal."

 

Reading around the subject, German soldiers would keep their jackboots in repair and working as long as possible.

 

@Foxbat Which branches of the Heer did you want to model?

 

 

 

[Foxbat]

6 minutes ago, Robert Stuart said:

This wikipedia article might help

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniforms_of_the_Heer_(1935–1945)#Boots

Jackboots

"However, as late as fall 1944 depots were encouraged to issue Marschstiefel [jackboots] to infantry and artillery, to the extent they were available."

 

Ankle boots

"From 1941 Schnürschuhe [ankle boots] were authorized for combat units as well, and the only footgear issued to new recruits; by 1943 their wear had become universal."

 

Reading around the subject, German soldiers would keep their jackboots in repair and working as long as possible.

 

@Foxbat Which branches of the Heer did you want to model?

 

 

 

That first bit gives me great joy. I want to model an artillery crew. The nicest set have peaked caps and jackboots but I wasn't sure if that limited them to mid-war. Nice to know they'll fit for Normandy. There are another couple of sets available that have the figures in action and so half stripped of uniform so maybe more appropriate for a hot and sweaty D Day, but to my eye they lack a certain finesse and as Gunner Asch would no doubt attest, image is everything.

 

Andy

[vppelt68]

Stretching my memory back some years when I was REALLY interested in Normandy, @Foxbat it's good to remember that apart from the few tank divisions either already in position or more numerously dispatched there after the invasion, the Heer divisions were not actually first line units with the newest and most modern equipment; so go with those boots 🙂

[PLC1966]

On ‎6‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 10:07 AM, Brad said:

It's interesting doing some further reading on the air combat over France and the beaches during Overlord, you don't really think much of it as most fighters for the Luftwaffe were withdrawn to defend against the bombing of Germany. However the Luftwaffe actually achieved a 2:1 kill ratio over the allies over France from June 6th to June 30th. Just under 1000 fighters shot down between the 2nd TAF, 8th and 9th Air Forces. Add the 200-300 heavy bombers lost over France, the allies lost at least 1,200 aircraft. The Luftwaffe lost 646 aircraft in the same period. Although they did well, total losses for operational aircraft for the allies was less than 10%, while Luftwaffe losses were over 50%. I found that interesting.

Brad, Were the Allied aircraft losses Luftwaffe kills ? 

 

I seen to remember that the big issue for the Allies in Normandy were the German AA weapons being particularly potent to Aircraft carrying out Ground Attack roles. 

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Great Josef "Pips" Priller Reference link. 

 

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/josef-pips-priller-and-his-machines.28055/

 

I hope it helps someone. 

 

Dennis

[TEMPESTMK5]

Good morning

 I am tempted to build the Academy Hawker Tempest in the markings of Bea Beamont aircraft in June 1944 on this profile

 

there is a Wing Commander pennant on the right side of the fuselage I would like to know if there is also a pennant on the left side ?

 

Patrice  

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

15 hours ago, TEMPESTMK5 said:

Good morning

 I am tempted to build the Academy Hawker Tempest in the markings of Bea Beamont aircraft in June 1944 on this profile

 

there is a Wing Commander pennant on the right side of the fuselage I would like to know if there is also a pennant on the left side ?

 

Patrice  

This photo doesn't seem to show one ? 

 

 

Edit: I just realized it isn't his personal aircraft disregard. 😕

 

Edited June 27, 2019 by Corsairfoxfouruncle

[TEMPESTMK5]

Good afternoon Corsairfoxfouruncle

 Thank you for searching anyway...

 

Patrice

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

I will keep looking and if i do find anything i will post it.