Bruce Archer Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 (edited) Hi All! It seems no two references agree as to RAF designations of P-40s and their US equivalents. Here is what I have: Tomahawk Ia/b:ex-French order,similar to the P-40CU Tomahawk IIa: P-40B Tomahawk IIb: P-40C Kittyhawk I: P-40D Kittyhawk Ia: P-40E Kittyhawk IIa: Short Tail P-40F Kittyhawk IIb: Long Tail P-40F or P-40L? or both? Kittyhawk III: Does this include round tail P-40K, long tail P-40K and P-40M? Kittyhawk V- P-40N Can some body help me straighten this out? Bruce Edited February 9, 2018 by Bruce Archer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfqweofekwpeweiop4 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 The P-40N was the Kittyhawk Mk IV not V if that helps. The K and M were the Mk III as far as I can tell. Not sure about a Mk II B and I think you're right on the others. The new Special Hobby Kittyhawk Ia and P-40N look quite nice, might have to get them. thanks Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Archer Posted February 8, 2018 Author Share Posted February 8, 2018 53 minutes ago, Mikemx said: The P-40N was the Kittyhawk Mk IV not V if that helps. The K and M were the Mk III as far as I can tell. Not sure about a Mk II B and I think you're right on the others. The new Special Hobby Kittyhawk Ia and P-40N look quite nice, might have to get them. thanks Mike Ahh, but did the Mk.III include long tail Ks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfqweofekwpeweiop4 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 Yes I think anything with a Merlin was a Mk III thanks Mike 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDSModeller Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 6 hours ago, Bruce Archer said: Hi All! It seems no two references agree as to RAF designations of P-40s and their US equivalents. Here is what I have: Tomahawk Ia/b:ex-French order,similar to the P-40CU Tomahawk IIa: P-40B Tomahawk IIb: P-40C Kittyhawk I: P-40D Kittyhawk Ia: P-40E Kittyhawk IIa: Short Tail P-40F Kittyhawk IIb: Long Tail P-40F or P-40L? or both? Kittyhawk III: Does this include round tail P-40K, long tail P-40K and P-40M? Kittyhawk V- P-40N Can some body help me straighten this out? Bruce Are you after RAF or Commonwealth P 40 designations? RNZAF received the following P 40 models with following designations serving in the Pacific Theatre E-1 K-10 K-15 M-5 M-10 N-1 N-5 N-15 N-20 N-25 The aircraft for as long as I have been around, have been known by their US designations in and out of RNZAF circles. Since the RNZAF was/is a Commonwealth Air Force I assume this what you are after? OR are you after RAF aircraft serving with Article XV Squadrons? OR Squadrons that were Commonwealth serving in Europe/MTO , such as RAAF 3 Squadron? ADF serials list P 40's serving with 3 Squadron and 450 Squadron (Article XV) under the RAF designation I/II/II/IV Middle East/MTO RAAF P 40's ie E-1/E's etc are listed with US designations serving in Pacific Theatre, similar/same as RNZAF Regards Alan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Archer Posted February 9, 2018 Author Share Posted February 9, 2018 35 minutes ago, LDSModeller said: Are you after RAF or Commonwealth P 40 designations? RNZAF received the following P 40 models with following designations serving in the Pacific Theatre E-1 K-10 K-15 M-5 M-10 N-1 N-5 N-15 N-20 N-25 The aircraft for as long as I have been around, have been known by their US designations in and out of RNZAF circles. Since the RNZAF was/is a Commonwealth Air Force I assume this what you are after? OR are you after RAF aircraft serving with Article XV Squadrons? OR Squadrons that were Commonwealth serving in Europe/MTO , such as RAAF 3 Squadron? ADF serials list P 40's serving with 3 Squadron and 450 Squadron (Article XV) under the RAF designation I/II/II/IV Middle East/MTO RAAF P 40's ie E-1/E's etc are listed with US designations serving in Pacific Theatre, similar/same as RNZAF Regards Alan I am looking for what you call RAF designations. As I am about 6 models short of every sub-type, I am trying to determine what I need to build. After each sub-type is done, I will start each air force's P-40s. Bruce 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seawinder Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 3 hours ago, Mikemx said: Yes I think anything with a Merlin was a Mk III thanks Mike According to the In Action book, P-40Ks were designated Kittyhawk III, but they had the Allison engine. Also, having just built one, there were some Kittyhawk Mk. Ia's from the very last batch of P-40Es that externally resembled the short-tail P-40K: tail fillet, flared exhausts, (no radio mast). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDSModeller Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Bruce Archer said: I am looking for what you call RAF designations. As I am about 6 models short of every sub-type, I am trying to determine what I need to build. After each sub-type is done, I will start each air force's P-40s. Bruce Hi Bruce I think you might get a better response to your query, by changing your title to "RAF P40 Designations". The best use of the term in WWII reference, would be Britain and Her Commonwealth (or Dominions - No Minion jokes guys ) The Term "Commonwealth" refers to places like Australia/ Canada/New Zealand/South Africa (you can probably include Rhodesia), who had Article XV Squadrons (Commonwealth Service Personnel) serving with the RAF, under RAF control, flying RAF supplied aircraft. Countries with Squadrons flying with the RAF such as RAAF 3 Squadron as an example under RAAF control who either owned the aircraft, or were supplied with aircraft and flew aircraft with RAF designations that you are after. These primarily in the Europe/MTO/Africa/Far East theatres. Article XV Squadrons Out of the RNZAF P 40's, only the E-1's and early K's were taken from RAF orders shipped ex USA. All the later K's, M/N's were direct Lend Lease from the USA, as the RNZAF in the Pacific was attached to the US Navy in WWII, hence referral to US designations (including the E-1's and early K's). In the Europe/MTO/African theatres no New Zealand Article XV Squadrons served (to my knowledge) as specific P 40 Squadrons. Certainly specific New Zealander's serving in the RAF flew P40's but as RAF Pilots not RNZAF. You might also want to check with BM members who are knowledgeable concerning RCAF and SAAF P40 usage and designations Hope that helps? Regards Alan Edited February 9, 2018 by LDSModeller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Archer Posted February 9, 2018 Author Share Posted February 9, 2018 Hi All! First, thanks to all who answered m query. But I do have some more questions... Kittyhawk IIb (long tail Merlin powered): were these P-40Fs or P-40Ls, or both? Kittyhawk III: I do know early P-40K-1 and -5 with the round tail were called Kittyhawk III. And I know the P-40M was also called the Kittyhawk III. But did any long tail P-40Ks make it to the RAF? And what was driving me mad was the designation Kittyhawk I. What appears to be the case is there was no Kitthawk Ia. The RAF considered both the P-40D and P-40E the same aircraft. And finally, did the RAF receive an Tomahawk Ia/b aircraft in French markings or camouflage? Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hornet133 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 (edited) Some answers Kittyhawk Mk.1 was the designation for those P-40Ds (20) and P-40E-1s purchased directly with British Bullion reserves before the lend lease act was enacted. They differed from P-40E models supplied to the USAAC as they had British spec equipment such as 24 volt electrical systems (USAAC airframes used 12 volt), British radios etc. Once lend lease came into force the remainder of the P-40Es supplied to the RAF were to U.S specs and were designated as Kittyhawk Mk.1a to differentiate them. Mk.IIas were long tailed P-40Ls...NO long tailed P-40Fs served with the RAF, the P-40Fs were all short tail variants under the Mk.II designation. Yes the Mk.III designation included long tail Ks. That designation covered a very mixed batch of variants. And of course the Mk.IV was the P-40N, including about 90 airframes which were the P-40N-1 model with the older style canopy. There are very few photos of those in print from the RAF in Italy. I don't believe RAF received any Tomahawk Ia/b aircraft in French markings or camouflage. Believe me, the Squadron 'In Action' book has absolutely no idea when it comes to the RAF designations. It is replete with a mass of errors. Steve Mackenzie Edited February 9, 2018 by Hornet133 typo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS_w Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 (edited) 20 hours ago, Bruce Archer said: Tomahawk Ia/b:ex-French order,similar to the P-40CU I think that P40 of french order had 4 wing guns, and P40CU 2 wing guns only RAF designation On 16/08/2017 at 11:30 AM, Buz said: Just a quick one to clean this up, the list should read (based on Mfr records): H-81A Tomahawk I H-81A-1 Tomahawk IIa H-81A-2 Tomahawk IIb H-87A-2 Kittyhawk I H-87A-3 Kittyhawk I P-40E-1 Kittyhawk Ia P-40F-1 Kittyhawk II (all F models used by RAF were F-1, no later models delivered to RAF) P-40K (numerous subtypes) Kittyhawk III P-40L Kittyhawk IIa P-40M (numerous subtypes) Kittyhawk III P-40N-1 Kittyhawk IV P-40N-5 above Kittyhawk IV (Some documents refer to as Kittyhawk IV series 1 but not called so in service) The RAF did receive about 10 P-40C, but never formally taken on charge before being sent to Russia. As for the P-40E-1, these were built to British standards and were a continuation of British Line numbers according to the Mfr. Buz Edited February 9, 2018 by BS_w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_c67 Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 This will help... http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/1999/09/stuff_eng_p40.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SelwynWilliams Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 I found a WW2 Tomahawk off Chesil Beach in 1980. It was one of 140 Tomahawk Mk Is built for the French but France fell before they could be delivered so were diverted to the RAF. The original Mark Is only had two wing machine guns, no self sealing tanks and no bullet proof shield behind the pilot so I was a little confused when self sealing tanks and bullet proof shield were what I found on the wreck until I realised the Mk Is might have been upgraded to Mk II's specifications or were upgraded original French specifications. This French model had twin machine guns 0.3 in each wing and two 0.50 nose guns. Several items such as electrical items had French markings and descriptions but there were also AM (Air Ministry) switches and an ICI extinguisher. This P40 was given to 400 squadron RCAF. So an American built aircraft ordered by France diverted to the RAF and flown by a Canadian Squadron found by an English/Welshman. I am putting on a display of recovered artefacts in the Old Town Hall in Weymouth to celebrate 100 years of the RAF and would love a large model of a P40 B or C to display for a weekend or so. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS_w Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 (edited) in the pilot's note H81A, the cockpit three views show a french cockpit updated for british. Every nameplate was remplaced and the raised inscriptions received a name plate over them. The engine controls were always stamped Gaz, Essence, Hélice instead Throttle, Mixture, Propeller. The front view shows 4 wing guns arming handles with inscription "MIT AILE ARM"(mitrailleuse aile armement) instead "GUN CHARGER" Edited March 30, 2018 by BS_w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SelwynWilliams Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 Mitrailleuse d'interior and d'exterior for inner and outer wing guns were on this P40 plane. The instrument panel I recovered has rewritten tabs above where some instruments were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Bunker Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 Going slightly off topic, were any Kittyhawks used in the UK? I know Tomohawks were used by UK based squadrons but did the odd Kittyhawk ever crop up at Farnborough or Boscombe Down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 I believe I've seen one photo from Boscombe, apparently in full Day Fighter Trim. Worth a look in Hikoki's book about testing at BD in the war years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Bunker Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 Thank you Graham Copy of the book ordered - I shall await it with interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 That's a bit fast ; I'm afraid I've been gardening rather than checking. But even if the picture isn't there (and I'm sure there's one somewhere) there's a lot of good stuff in the book anyway. I don't imagine you'll regret it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackem01 Posted March 31, 2018 Share Posted March 31, 2018 On 30/03/2018 at 3:57 PM, SelwynWilliams said: I found a WW2 Tomahawk off Chesil Beach in 1980. It was one of 140 Tomahawk Mk Is built for the French but France fell before they could be delivered so were diverted to the RAF. The original Mark Is only had two wing machine guns, no self sealing tanks and no bullet proof shield behind the pilot so I was a little confused when self sealing tanks and bullet proof shield were what I found on the wreck until I realised the Mk Is might have been upgraded to Mk II's specifications or were upgraded original French specifications. This French model had twin machine guns 0.3 in each wing and two 0.50 nose guns. Several items such as electrical items had French markings and descriptions but there were also AM (Air Ministry) switches and an ICI extinguisher. This P40 was given to 400 squadron RCAF. So an American built aircraft ordered by France diverted to the RAF and flown by a Canadian Squadron found by an English/Welshman. I am putting on a display of recovered artefacts in the Old Town Hall in Weymouth to celebrate 100 years of the RAF and would love a large model of a P40 B or C to display for a weekend or so. I'd be very interested to see pics of your display if you get the chance to post some. Sure others would too. Used to do a bit of "wreckology" myself. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Russell Posted April 1, 2018 Share Posted April 1, 2018 12 hours ago, Graham Boak said: I believe I've seen one photo from Boscombe, apparently in full Day Fighter Trim. FX594 was a P-40N / Kittyhawk Mk IV photographed "somewhere in England" according to the caption. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buz Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 (edited) Nigel To date there are 14 identified Kittyhawks that were used in the UK (as well as the Tomahawks). These consisted of: 9 - Kittyhawk Ia (H-87A) 2 - Kittyhawk 1a (P-40E-1) 2 - Kittyhawk II (P-40F-1) 1 - Kittyhawk IV (P-40N) Some of these were used for testing before becoming Instructional airframes, and one is still missing after a ferry flight. Selwyn - Your Tomahawk is very likely to be AH845 which struck the water during low flying and ditched at Chesil Beach 8th Nov 1941. Aircraft had been modified for operations over Europe (entirely another story) and was flown by PltOff H.J.English J.5663 of 400SQN. Would love to know if you had any photos of her when you dived her, as she should have been relatively complete (as relative as hitting the water at about 100mph) when she came down . Best regards Buz Edited April 9, 2018 by Buz 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Bunker Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 3 hours ago, Buz said: 9 - Kittyhawk Ia (H-87A) 2 - Kittyhawk 1a (P-40E-1) 2 - Kittyhawk II (P-40F-1) 1 - Kittyhawk IV (P-40N) I have just received my copy of "The Secret Years" and from first glance I have found the following serials. There are also some pictures of some of the aircraft in the book. I will leave it to the experts to decide if Kittyhawk Ia were either H-87A or P-40E-1 as I am at work so away from my reference books. 11 - Kittyhawk 1a (9 x H-87A + 2 x P-40E-1) AK579, AK764, AK751, AL229 & ET573 2 - Kittyhawk II (P-40F-1) FL220 1 - Kittyhawk IV (P-40N) FX594 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buz Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 Nigel Serials I have are as follows: (bold became instructional Airframe, underlined used by US 8th AF during its service) Kittyhawk I - AK572, AK573, AK575, AK576, AK579, AK580, AK751, AK764, AL229 and AL230 (actually makes 10 - seems I can't count) Kittyhawk Ia - ET573, ET580 Kittyhawk II - FL219, FL220 Kittyhawk IV - FX594 ET580 was with the 8th AF HQ as a hack when it crashed and was destroyed 09 Oct 1943 (or 10/9/43 depending on who you believe). AK575 went missing during a ferry flight from Speke - Scottish Aviation Prestwick with the loss of the ATA Pilot. I have pictures of both Kittyhawk Ia's, both Kittyhawk II's and the Kittyhawk IV, still trying to find more of the Kittyhawk I's as I only have photos of 3 of that type. As for what makes a Kittyhawk i vs a Ia, I'm under the option that Kittyhawk I's are the RAF ordered H-87 models (be they 4 or 6 gun wings), Kittyhawk Ia the Lend lease P-40E-1. However many don't agree with this chain of thought, and the documents can at times confuse the issue. Hope this helps Buz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 (edited) Not sure the a and b suffixes were actually used for Mk IIs. From memory the short tails were all Fs and the long tails all L-5s There used to be an article on Hyperscale in the use of the P40L by the units under RAF Command but I can’t find it now Edited April 9, 2018 by Dave Fleming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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