Buz

@joeBo The picture of Dukes aircraft sometimes captioned as early 1942, was lost 5th Dec 1941 - below is a list of Front line Squadrons that used the Tomahawk in North Africa, and the dates they ceased use. Fully equipped Units 3 RAAF - ceased use Dec 1941 112 SQN - ceased use Dec 1941 250 SQN - ceased use Apr 1942 2SAAF - ceased use May 1942 4SAAF - ceased use Jul 1942 5SAAF - ceased use Jan 1943 Partially Equipped Units 40SAAF - ceased use Sep 1942 (I think) 73 SQN - ceased use Oct 1941 208SQN - ceased use Sep 1942 Training Only 94 SQN - two examples used for famil/to convert the Hurricane Pilots to the P-40. 260 SQN - three examples used for famil/to convert the Hurricane Pilots to the P-40. Buz

@Nodrog Aircraft is a P-40N-30 used by various Base Units within 3rd AF (First Unit may have been 53rd FG), at Venice, later with 337 and 341 base Units at Pinellas and 335 Base Unit at Dale Mabry. I suggest its not a 13th Pursuit or Fighter Group aircraft, maybe 13th FS (which was part of the 53rd FG)....... Starboard side is exactly the same as the port, pilot as mentioned above was Maj Ben Preston Aircraft survived its time with training Units (although was bounced a couple of times) and was scrapped post war. Buz

Steve The only one I have as FR273 is https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C331258, I have no idea of the serial for the other two. Only other option we have is look at the aircraft on strength at the time, and eliminate what we can. I have 16 aircraft on strength that day of which I have imagery of the right side (in this case the port side) showing nose art/not in May 1943 or later I don't have port side imagery of FL723, FR116, FR242, FR253, FR273, FR311, FR356, FR417, FR438, FR490, FR491 and FR495 (I have the codes for the bulk of those - in I think is a clean skin at this time period) Buz

Quick update for the Info from Steve I believe FR242 left 450 SQN for a Major servicing, certainly based on hours flown she would have been. Adding additional weight to this being the case, I cannot find any record of her receiving any level of damage on the 19th nor for the previous 3 days. She was replaced by FR337 as OK-<> @rhagger The images you put up I have as FR273 OK-F (doesn't mean I right - just what I have.). Certainly OK-F was one of letters associated with the Boxing Roo......... if you look carefully at what you can see of the tail fin you can see its a short tail Buz

I'm thinking along the lines as what Harry has stated (Dark Green), I'll check the records and see if its a replacement due damage or something for you Buz

Rob There was a number of Roo's within 450 SQN, at various times (and on the unit at the same time). Serial number for the attached photo is likely FR811 OK-V if this is indeed "his" aircraft....... Buz

Just discussions on various boards/forums at different times on if the blue used was Azure, Light Mediterranean Blue, Pre-War Sky blue or a special mix...... or indeed all of them being used at different times...... I don't know the answer (I have my own ideas and I'm sure many others have their own opinions) hence I just say blue of choice underneath....... Buz

MilneBay Never an argument - robust discussion is always the best to get an answer and people can always agree to disagree if an consensus isn't reached I think that to get the right answer you need the right aircraft and right timeframe. You also need some luck to find a photo, and a little skill in dealing with interpretation of B&W Photos, as well as a little luck when it comes the filters used in the production of the image concerned.......... Now some of this can be dealt with, others is pure guess work (I'm no expert, but have some background in this), Add to that you need a clue on where the aircraft came from, was it from another Unit, B-SQN, RSU or MU........ But just for a bit of fun lets throw up some photo with details (time frames) and see what we make of them at the same time we can prove that the Tomahawks also wore the CV codes. Lets us see the evolution of the Camouflage for 3 SQN Tomahawks (and ME Tomahawks in General) Tomahawk AK446 and AK548 - Jul 1941 - (AK446 Jun to Oct 1941, AK548 Jun to Aug 41) - both aircraft in from 102MU - Underside colour Dupont Sky Tomahawk AK378 3 SQN (May 1941 - Dec 1941) - Likely repainted at Unit - believed taken in Oct 1941 - in from 102MU - Underside colour? Tomahawk AN355 R 3 SQN (Sep - Oct 1941) - Original Scheme - likely taken Sep 1941 - in from 107MU (AWM has similar photos supposed to have been take c.Oct 1941) - Underside Dupont Sky Tomahawk AK382 3 SQN (Oct to Nov 1941) - Likely repainted at MU after repairs - Taken late Oct 1941 - in from MU - previously with 112 SQN in Aug 1941 and even earlier with 250SQN - to me Underside is not Dupont - likely some semblance of blue Unknown Tomahawk 3 SQN Nov 1941 - Just a nice example - whats the underside colour? - only information know is taken Nov 1941 - Again not Dupont Sky - Blue? Tomahawk AK438 3 SQN Dec 1941 - repainted at MU - Taken Dec 1941 - in from 107MU - Underside not Dupont Sky Tomahawk believed to be AN335 Dec 1941 - Believe taken Dec 1941 - in from 107MU - Underside - yup that's blue - however because its off a movie there are limited options for filters unless used on the camera itself. Now for some interesting stuff Tomahawk AM507 Z 3SQN - Nov 1941 - Taken between 19th Nov and 22Nov 1941 - in from 107MU - desert scheme, maybe filters?? underside? Now we've had a little fun @tonyp AN416 was a new aircraft when it arrived at the SQN and was ex 107MU - it had no other service, and was destroyed on operations 22 Nov 1941. In the end it's entirely up to you where you go with it..... to me having seen no photo of AN416 but being through 107MU and being new I'd go with the blue (@Magpie22 can you assist with a photo?). Just to keep the peace all the photos above I have in my collection (except AN335 which I cropped from a movie I have a copy of), and I cropped AK438 as I didn't want to put the whole photo up - aircraft has no code letter. Buz

Tony This aircraft was delivered to 3 SQN in Oct 1941 after the desert scheme came into being, thus I would expect the undersides to blue (not entering into the Azure Blue/LMB/ special mix argument) Buz

Peter Thanks for the clarification. I was away from my photos when answering, and knew at least one of the Roo's wasn't in Desert scheme, but couldn't recall which one. Buz

Ricky You're looking at a mid Aug to early/mid Oct 1943 for that aircraft, flying out of Agnone LG, Sicily, and Grottaglie, Bari and Foggia Main on the Mianland. During this time period any of the following mixes is accurate: Brit 250lb x 2 (centre-line pair) Brit 250lb x 1 and 8 x 40lb Brit 250;b x 1 Tank Tank and 8 x 40lbers 40lbs x 8 (rarely ever seen) Beware as well - this is the period of transition for Camouflage schemes (off the top of my head I cannot recall what FR853 was - but I know at least one of the Kitty III Roos was not desert scheme). Pictures will really be your friend for this bird. The other weapon loads you talk (500lb x number) about are much more akin to Kitty IV's, not Kitty III.........(yes Kittyhawk III had been seen with US 500lb x 1 on the centre-line but this is not something seen at 450 in the above time frame. Buz

Dana Not often we get to do this but, in this case, not quite. I think she would have likely left the factory as you state above, however when she was with the 20th Pursuit Group she didn't have the counter-shading (although the decal profile is not quite correct they got that bit right). This change seems to be only with a limited number of aircraft, and because its multiple Squadrons over multiple groups, I'd assess this has occurred because they had been damaged, then repaired at a depot level - during which they've been repainted. Examples identified include aircraft from the: 20th Pursuit Group - #23/20P, #41/20P, #90/20P, #100/20P (1941) 31st Pursuit Group - #2/31P, #4/31PG, #44/31PG, #51/31P, #57/31PG 35th Pursuit Group - #11/35P Material Div - #20/MD The above is based of imagery only, there is a picture of this aircraft that I forwarded to the OP (PM me if you want it) Lets not worry about some of those awesome wartime schemes for the P-40CUs - as they had gone through service life and depot servicing by the time the pictures were taken (such as 39-157 at Lincoln in early 1943, 39-184 at Luke in 1942 etc, and the unknown marked as 175/42ED) All the best Buz

@Dave Slowbuild If you drop me a PM I'll sort out a way to send you a picture of that aircraft (shows a little use as well, so can gauge your weathering requirements), but as the others have stated long tubes on the .50's and 1 x .30 cal per wing, aircraft also had Aluminum blades (front of blades) not black Buz

Paddesky As Geoffrey states, 42-106285 was sent to USAAF in China (likely via India) and served with 74FS/23FG. other serials mentioned 42-106288 also went to China for USAAF Using the 1783 number your aircraft is likely 42-106211 which did go to Russia (via Philadelphia ), and was accepted by the Russian's in Dec 43. Buz Ref: Factory records for the 1783 No.

Herb It could be, however not a type used by the Free French pre-Torch, but at that same time I've not been able to find exactly what/Who it is - so never say never. There's a number marked very similar for F and L models coming from Takoradi/Summit, some of which certainly served with the French AF (paper transferred in1945 - possibly went earlier), however there are also aircraft marked the same way for F and L modes that served with the 2 RAF P-40F units. No yet seen a K model marked like this, I'm sure some day more photos come to light and we can narrow this down. Thought I'd post this one for anyone that wants to see what sometimes happened to these aircraft Buz

Mike Yes and no, depending time frame and why it's so important. - H87A models were delivered between Nov 1941 and Jun 1942, P-40E-1's were delivered between May and Sep 1942 (a couple later than that - I hate Project 19 at times), and depending on the route into the Middle East, were repainted by different MU's, although most went through 107MU before being allocated to Units and either flown to a SQN or to a Base Unit/RSU (depending on what phase of the fighting they were in). You also have aircraft being used all the way to mid 1943 on Frontline SQN's, quite a number of these had been rebuilt, or gone through major servicing (around 240hrs for a Kittyhawk), which would see them repainted in the paints in use at the time....... Not withstanding the filters used on the processing of the prints, the way the negatives were processed (what levels of chemicals etc) and my old eyes, there seems to be at least 2 or 3 distinct (Probably0 blues over that time frame, as well as the Sky Grey at the beginning (although those are seen with the Day Fighter scheme mostly). Tomahawks first got their Blue undersides in late Aug 1941 (one SQN noted "Desert camouflage and Dark blue underneath - looks very conspicuous on the ground" later same Unit commented on "hard to see at 5000ft") but that's a different story Buz

@Grizly at the end of the day, complete the model as you want, its you that has to be happy with it @Phoenix44 - lets say assumptions based on some factual knowledge.......... why do I say replacement panel? - well apart from the different colours, this aircraft suffered an accident that necessitated repair at an MU or RSU, not a repair at the Unit. Units were pretty good at repairing the aircraft, Nose up aircraft - engine change, and prop change, Single u/c failure - lift aircraft (crane or Derek), u/c repaired and probably a wing tip replacement, engine failure on take off or landing - replace the engine (unless there is more major damage) - so this was something a bit bigger....... A quick look at the accident info - shows that Kittyhawk I AK759 (Allison No.3868/A.206084) suffered an engine failure in Flight, there's no pilots name mentioned nor is the SQN they report correct (I have that Units records, including the Squadron's aircraft casualty book and there's no mention, even though the casualty books shows every aircraft lost or damaged from 18/2/42 until 12/5/45 (all Kittyhawks)...... however based on engine failure in flight, would require the aircraft to place itself on the ground in some way, the normal and safest way in the desert was to belly land it, which would require a minimum of engine change, prop change and funnily enough at least the lower engine cowl replaced (it tends to crumple), and quite often the keel requires replacing as well. As to the paint finish - there's so many factors here it's not funny - so rather than step through every possible factor known to man, I'll just leave this photo here - both aircraft are P-40E-1's, both are new aircraft never having served in any squadron (yes the left aircraft has a code on it - its the convoy number), photo is taken mid-late Jul 1942, both are in factory finish........ (right aircraft completed at the factory 24th Mar 42 - crashed 30th Jun 1942, left completed at the factory 21st Feb 42 - crashed 2nd Jul 1942) - both seen after recovery to an depot - both require lower cowl replacements, even though doesn't look to bad - however to my old eyes the schemes whilst they should be the same are faded at different levels - in fact the newer aircraft (to my eyes) looks worse than the older). I wouldn't call myself an expert in the P-40, but may know a thing or two... Buz

Phoenix The photo (its a pretty bad copy of it) was taken after the aircraft has been sitting in the sun for a while and had previously been damaged (suggest this photo was taken in Apr 1942). so you have around 3- 4 months worth of weathering, plus repaired damage. Kittyhawk I's did not come in an A and B pattern finish from the factory, so therefore the replacement panel is most likely finished in the factory colour (that area was Dark Green for the Kittyhawk I). At the time of this photo there was only two factory finishes, DE/DG over Sky Grey (all Dupont colours), or OD over NG...... so even if a USAAC Panel it'd still be OD....... the other finish would be the repaints done by the receiving MU's (most went through 107MU), which over painted the green with Middlestone. The other option could be a DE panel - yes - however someone would have to have decided to paint over the factory finish, while going against the standard finishes for the aircraft...... (not saying impossible, as bored erks do dumb things), the likelihood of this occurring in a period of time where 94 suffered serious losses (in fact many Units where), whilst trying to convert Tomahawk users onto Kittyhawks as well as bring on charge, repaint and issue numerous other types I think would be very small. However I'll keep an open mind Buz

Grizly Personally I'd paint this panel Dupont Dark Green with a small hint of dark earth at the very lip of the panel as per a factory finish. Likely a replacement panel post its accident in Mar 42, not from a previously damaged aircraft, hence why the brown on the lip is difficult to make out Buz

Grizly Always good to be a doubting Thomas, however RAF colour shots (in fact colour shots in general for P-40s) are somewhat of a rarity.... I have 6 colour shots out of the over 2000 RAF P-40 photos I've purchased/ scanned/ found over the years, only one of those 6 has a visible tank to reference (found on the web of all places in a Green/Brown/Grey scheme late 1943/early 1944) - rest have no tanks, and in once case a 250/500lbr (can't recall off the top of my head). Happy to flick you a copy of the grey/green however doesn't help the Azure question. Only other colour Azure blue underside aircraft I can find that has the tank visible enough to make out properly is a US Army one (I think that one came from a book), and another Life photo which has what looks like an Azure blue tank sitting on the ground in the background of the image. Now I'm going to ask, what time frame etc are you looking at or P-40 type, as although tanks were available they were not often used in North Africa, until the advent of the P-40K models and the Allied Push in Oct 1942. Its rare to see a E-1/H-87 fitted with a tank, normally you see them with nothing or bombs (250/500 is the normal either British or US). Later in Malta and Italy you see them with a mix of tanks and 40;s, 250lbrs (or multiples there of), 500lbrs and 1000lbrs mostly of the US type Maybe on of the others can assist here with colour shots. Buz

Grizly As mentioned above, most were completed with the underside colour of the day be it Azure, Dupont Sky Grey, the grey in Italy etc. It was very rare to see them not match the airframe (I've only seen about 3 examples out of probably 7 odd thousand photos I've seen during research) Although throw away items you don't always throw them away, nor do you want a blob of different colour arching through the sky (tends to draw the eye). Buz

Corsair Which aircraft are you planning to make and what timeframe? Buz

Sorry Gents Slacking off recently and only just noticed this one. Lets address AH893 - this aircraft was only with 26 SQN until Feb 1942 and didn't go through the modification to the fishtailed exhausts (which had just started), before she was bounced after an engine failure which resulted in her being written off. - So answer Pot exhausts only for this aircraft. Also if you're being a little pedantic she would have had .303's not .30 cals (noticeable at 1/48th but not a show stopper). As to the Exhausts in general - there's three types for RAF Tomahawks - Pot, "standard" Fishtailed (flame dampers) and what is shown on AH935 (pictures above) which seems to have the main fishtailed exhaust with a smaller outlet on the outside, so best advice is find one of the limited photos that exist (there's not huge numbers of these around, many of them are different aspects of the same aircraft). Buz

Bruce - not having my resources available to check the 45 degree issue I can say that the "US ARMY" was changed from the 1925 Black versions to Blue after 22nd Oct 1940 (only on Camouflaged Aircraft, I believe non camouflaged stayed Black). This remained in force until ordered to be removed on 10th Jul 1942. If I can't find the detail when I get home I'll see what the photos tell us (but this isn't just for P-47B's, this will be for all aircraft). Reference for above data is "Evolution of National Insignia, Colouration and markings on USAF Aircraft - Charles G Worman USAF Museum (available on the web as a PDF). Buz

Peter All good, as to the weapons used, I've only ever seen this configuration utilising British Weapons, not US ones. Buz