ZE419, a Sea King HAS5 that (temporarily) forgot how to fly

[Jessica]

32 minutes ago, Scimitar said:

The Whirlwind is fitted with an experimental mine sweeping gear. Note that the rear fairing has been removed.

<snippage happened>

Can't remember why it was towing the ton class though..yet more to look out at the weekend

See aforementioned "experimental mine sweeping gear". I'd think that a Ton Class counts as 'mine sweeping gear', wouldn't you?

[71chally]

As mentioned earlier it was trial to see if ships could be pulled if they were in distress, two different Ton Class Ships were pulled, Gavington and Burnaston.

There is another well known picture taken from the rear, and there appears to be more disturbance in the water made by the Whirlwind than the minesweeper!

 

Very intricate work on that landing gear.

[keefr22]

11 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

4.  You will get the odd gap / missing rivet; if this really matters to you, you might have to look elsewhere.

 

In the dim & dark fog that now passes for my memory, I recall a method of replacing raised rivets, born of necessity as most kits of the time were festooned with the things. As said kits also weren't known to always fit particularly well, filling & sanding gaps inevitably removed said rivets. So, IIRC the wheeze was to replace the lost ones with small drops of pva applied with a cocktail stick. Might this be a way of replacing lost HGW ones too? I realise they're a lot finer than those beloved by the likes of Airfix's 1960's riveter, so maybe tiny drops of superglue applied with some fine wire or a pin might be an acceptable replacement? For those that it really matters to, that is...?!

 

Keith

 

 

[perdu]

You could try a mix of cyano and pva to get point detail rivets

 

The cyano is activated by the pva and sets quickly

 

but it can be awkward to get the littlleness right

[hendie]

coming along very nicely.... slowly, but nicely.  

 

Since I feel some awkward sense of responsibility as I may have been partially, if not wholly instrumental in pointing you towards those HGW things.... I'm getting a bit scared.

Do you have a paint mule that you can throw some rivets on and run through a full prime and paint ?    I'd hate to see you put all this work in and then see all that wonderful rivet detail disappear under the last coat of humbrols finest (or whatever flavor you may be using)

 

I'm still blown away by the rivets in the photo's though - they just look perfect.

[moaning dolphin]

Just to drag away from those rivets.......That undercarriage is looking quite tasty, I don't know if you have come across the Seaking STGB from last year but I stuck this up.

It gives a bit of enlightenment on the wiring and pipeline routing. The hydraulic routing at the top would be along the top surface of the sponson recess. Its not an area that is well documented as not many people stick their heads right under there. Cracking work going on, I have been tempted to reactivate my build from must be over 10 years ago but alas there is far to much going on. Maybe next years KUTA GB? Keep up the good work

 

Bob

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

Just when you think things cannot get much weirder, Channel 4 do a show about converting a retired Sea King into a "glamping" site.  As you can imagine, my Facebook page / Inbox was filled with mates sending variations on "Did you see this?" messages (including on here).  So I went to my log book to see whether I'd flown that airframe: ZA127.  I was flying it exactly 30 years ago today on 810 NAS towards the end of my OFT... [on a CASEX (Combined Anti-Submarine Exercise) in the Portland exercise areas, with the German frigate Rheinland-Pfalz, HMS Hermione & HMS Southampton vs the Dutch submarine Zeehond]. 

 

How spooky is that?  (It is also the airframe in which, 2 days previously, I had done my very first deck landing on RFA Engadine).

 

 

Bob, thanks for posting that undercarriage diagram.  I had already nicked it from the Group Build thread, but it's still very useful to have it included here.  I also got some decent shots by grovelling underneath XZ574 at the Museum a few weeks ago:

 

...but you can never have too many references.

 

Hendie, you were certainly responsible for the rivets on the seat frames, but if you go back a few pages in this thread you can see that I was already well on the road to talking myself into the rivets without your assistance!  No, I don't have a paint mule yet; my plan is actually to finish this starboard side and then give it a coat or two.  I am not going to prime it again - it already has 2 layers of Tamiya white underneath the rivets - so what I will do is mist on a coat (and just to ramp up the risk a bit more, I am using Hataka paint for the first time because their RAF Blue/Grey looks an excellent shade - though I certainly WILL test the paint out on something beforehand; probably HMS Paint Bitch from my Ark Royal build).

 

Sneak preview of some of today's rivets (still with their carrier film until tomorrow morning):

 

I've been working on the weapon carriers today, trying to get them to stay in one piece (without much joy, it has to be said).  

 

More later

 

Crisp

 

 

 

 

Edited October 28, 2016 by Ex-FAAWAFU

[71chally]

Just in case you miss the old birds

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3880524/Skys-limit-farmer-Sea-King-helicopter-turned-holiday-home.html

[71chally]

Talk about comic timing, posted at the same time Crisp.

Seems though that the Yanks were ahead of us again, http://www.winvian.com/cottages/helicopter/

 

 

Nice u/c detail, I have a fondness for undercarriages that I dare not speaketh of.

[Ascoteer]

Every day's a schoolday!

 

Despite having flown CASEXs on friendly subs, I never knew what it actually stood for.

 

Now I do, thanks Crisp!

 

 

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

I knew there was something else; the Whirlwind towing thingy was nagging away in the back of my head - I knew I had seen something about it before.  Eventually I tracked it down to a copy of another ancient book - this time "Flashing Blades Over the Sea", a history of the development etc of RN Helicopters that dates from c.1979 (put it this way, it talks about the Sea King HAS 5 as a future development!).  

 

In 1957 the RN recommissioned 701 NAS to act as a trials and development squadron and to parent the (very few) ship's flights while they were disembarked, leaving 705 to get on with training pilots and developing tactics for the Whirlwind (though I agree with Perdu that the Dragonfly was probably the first "proper" helicopter, the Whirly was without question the first ASW helicopter).  701 was only in commission for a year or so (it was a victim of the 1958 Defence White Paper, so some things never change!), but they clearly had a list of nutty ideas to get through.  Over to the book:

 

"Minesweeping trials were conducted with a Whirlwind HAR 3, but with inconclusive results.  On 6 August 1958 a Whirlwind towed a Slingsby glider as a rehearsal for Air Day - the first time this has been done in Britain.  Sonar Type 194 trials were carried out throughout 1958 - this was an anglicised version of the American AN/AQS 4 already in use in 845 NAS's HAS 7s.  Black boxes were made interchangeable between the Type 194 and the AN/AQS 4, to make it cost effective for the Fleet Air Arm.  

 

The minesweeper HMS Burnaston was towed successfully using the helicopter sweep gear."  [My emphasis]  So top marks to 71chally for spotting the sweeping mods to the aircraft.

 

 

 

Oh, and while we are on the subject of undercarriage, here is today's piece of Sea King trivia.  Unlike any other aircraft I know about, the Sea King's undercarriage is retractable for hydrodynamic, rather than aerodynamic, reasons.  There is no performance gain / loss whatsoever from having the wheels down; aircraft are regularly flown with the wheels locked down if there is a problem with the hydraulic system, for instance, and it has no discernible impact on performance.

 

Where it does make a difference is if you are unfortunate enough to ditch.  With the wheels up, provided the conditions are right it is possible to execute a "SEWTO" - a Single Engine Water Take-Off (mine was a TEWTO, because both ECUs were running).  Indeed, one of the performance parameters that you work out before you go flying is whether the aircraft will become light enough during the upcoming sortie for a SEWTO in the day's weather conditions.  But you would have no chance if the wheels are down; they would add far too much drag under the water, and if you tried it you'd probably pitch the nose under and spoil your whole day.

 

The boat hull is designed the way it is for the same reason; the Sea King is not, and was never supposed to be, a truly amphibious aircraft - you would never plan to land on the water (after all, your electronics bay is under the nose, which is about the worst possible place to put it if you plan to add water to the mix).  It is, however, designed to be capable of surviving a ditching and remaining stable on the sea surface (provided it isn't too rough).  There are numerous examples where this proved to be the case.

 

So wheels up and down is for watery reasons, not airy ones.  Since the Junglies do not do silly things like spend hours hovering over the sea, the Mk. 4 dispensed with the retractable undercarriage (and, indeed, the sponsons, which are part of the stability on the water business).

 

 

 

 

Edited October 28, 2016 by Ex-FAAWAFU

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

Final post for this evening - a quick illustration of the teeny things I have been working on for the past 90 minutes.

 

Firstly, if you want to take responsibility for anything, Hendie, you can 'fess up to the resin connectors - I got some for the rotor head, but it turns out that their first outing comes on the undercarriage:

 

Secondly, the weapon carriers I mentioned earlier.  This has taxed my soldering to the limit - the joints on that downward section (which is to stop the wiring from being torn off the aircraft when you drop the weapon) are minute, so it has taken a lot of attempts, failures, cleaning joints up, trying again, rinse and repeat:

 

As a reminder, here's a real one (other way round, but you get the gist...):

 

There are STILL more bits to add to the Flightpath version, but it's getting there.

 

Incidentally, top marks to Flightpath; their set was designed to allow us to build a Brit Sea King (any mark) from the Hasegawa SH-3 kit long before Hasegawa released the AEW 2a or HU 5 versions.  Highly recommended - though definitely worth annealing their brass, because it's a good deal thicker than the Eduard stuff I am used to.

 

A demain

 

Crisp

[71chally]

Nice bit of extra info there, even Sqns of the Fleet Air Arm didn''t mention 701 linked with the trials.

I've been interested in the Whirlwind with minesweeping gear for a while now, quite odd looking without that fillet, have seen it mentioned in conjunction with MAD trials as well. 

There is a really nice shot of it at Farnborough but darned if I can find it.  It appears in this charming old shot http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205164286

It would make a good modelling subject - one day.

 

Interesting about the Sea King U/C.  My Grandad used to work with BA S-61Ns and remember him saying there was no aerodynamic reason for retracts on it, I guess that explains S-91Ls layout didn't incur a penalty.  He did say that it reduced vibration and that the dials were almost readable when the wheels were up.

 

 

Edit,

Good little piece on 701 and the towing Whirlwind here, http://www.helis.com/database/sqd/uk_701_naval_air_squadron

Edited October 28, 2016 by 71chally

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

1 hour ago, 71chally said:

It appears in this charming old shot http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205164286

 

Even a Stringbag is flying on the buffet to allow the egg-beaters to keep up!  Now that's seriously slow. 

[JosephLalor]

1 hour ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

 

Even a Stringbag is flying on the buffet to allow the egg-beaters to keep up!  Now that's seriously slow. 

Didn't know that the FAA operated Hillers.  Was the HTE-2 known as the Raven?

[keefr22]

1 hour ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said:

 

Even a Stringbag is flying on the buffet to allow the egg-beaters to keep up!  Now that's seriously slow. 

I'm glad I wasn't seeing things,I thought that was the case!!

 

 

[perdu]

25 minutes ago, keefr22 said:

I'm glad I wasn't seeing things,I thought that was the case!!

 

 

Certifiable lunatics the lot of 'em

 

Stalling the Stringbag is bad enough

 

 

 

But madder still was towing that Sedbergh, I'm glad I wasn't riding in it

[bzn20]

Reading about the Boat Hull. Westland call all the bottom their choppers Bath Tubs in production anyway. My first job was to mask off all the joints and seal (with PR1422 A or Equiv) a Bath Tub, which is upside down and I'm looking at the bottom. After the sealant has cured turn the 'tub over and then its shifted to another jig and filled with water, nearly to the top and left for a bit. get under and look for leaks. Then its to the joining jig. Top half of the cab ,minus tail boom, is lowered on to the Bath Tub. and riveted, Bolted where required. Castors are fitted to the Cab and wheeled over for other bits and bobs Elec clipping and brackets, FOD. Main Gear Box.... Tailboom (minus pylon) on next and the cab is full of everybody. 2 of us started the Transmission drive shafts ,bit twitchy now, 1/32nd tolerance MGB- end of tailboom, no Pylon fitted yet. Drill off each shaft bearing supports. We are using 3 fishing lines (Yes, really) Centre left and right. Measure, tweak, clamp measure, drill, slave bolt and gripper pin the rivet holes and move to the next, lucky if we did 2 supports a day. When they're done and were are within tolerances(+/- 1/32nd")  rivet, nut and bolt all the Bearing supports.... it's Bearings next. Each one has 6 maybe 8 (IRC) nut and bolt 10 UNF. Shaft and DTI plunger, we're down to Gnat's wotsits More clamping, measure, tweak, clamp measure drill and slave and repeat to the end again. Check everything done so far. Nut ,bolt everything, Torque loaded. Drive Shaft No1 to fit, its a very short shaft and that lines up with MGB output shaft and No2 shaft at the same time the Oil Cooler drive belt uses a pulley on that shaft and lined up so the pulley faces are +/- 3/16" in line. Meanwhile someone on nightshift was building up the Pylon at some point I ended up on days doing it with a guy working on it on nights. Intermediate and tail rotor box fitting with diff thickness washers and feeler gauge the Pylon shaft, DTI that. That's offered up to the 'Boom and just hung on hinge side only as the closing side (port) needs filing to fit and feelers between lugs that the locking spigot travels through. Once that's fettled. The Shafts meet as the Pylon is just about closed they have teeth that transmit the drive. Some more messing with feelers on that bit. Build up the tail rotor. Nut, bolt and splitpin then Tail Rotor Blades. Fit Transmission Covers, Fixed Aerial Tunnels, Radome, Dog Kennel Fairing. Covers were Fibre Glass and they were crap, some were warped or gell coats were not of a constant quality, (rejected loads) but  eventually we got some satis parts they'd be fitted. Sometime around now The cab gets carted off for a paint and goes from Dk Green Primer to Yellow (RAF Cab)  In the meantime....The other guys cabled out, Hydraulics, Floors, Engines, Fuel system ,Main Rotor head, sponsons, under cart,front lecky bay kitted out, Cockpit equipped controls and  runs, the whole tail rotor assembly to the Tail Rotor Box. Ready for flight shed and a load of de snagging, and bits and pieces system checks.

That's about 3 months work there. Probably forgot something (it was 1994/5and 6).

[moaning dolphin]

And then Jack comes along with his BFOS and hammer . Still we managed to get 30+ years out of them! 

[Brandy]

1 hour ago, perdu said:

Certifiable lunatics the lot of 'em

 

Stalling the Stringbag is bad enough

 

 

 

But madder still was towing that Sedbergh, I'm glad I wasn't riding in it

SOMETHING had to tow a Sedburgh... the bloody thing had the glide ratio of a brick, although slightly better than the Cadet.....

 

Ian

[Jessica]

1 hour ago, moaning dolphin said:

And then Jack comes along with his BFOS and hammer . Still we managed to get 30+ years out of them! 

Clearly you lot hadn't quite got the Canadian touch. 53 years and counting...

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

1 hour ago, Jessica said:

Clearly you lot hadn't quite got the Canadian touch. 53 years and counting...

 

Though we cannot quite match Canada in that respect, the RN has been operating Sea Kings for 49 years (& counting)

[Pete in Lincs]

Quote

to another jig and filled with water, nearly to the top and left for a bit. get under and look for leaks. Then its to the joining jig.

Westlands. "Now how do we get the water out?

We could buy a pump.....

Or we could drill a hole in the bottom....

Hmmmm"

[71chally]

9 hours ago, JosephLalor said:

Didn't know that the FAA operated Hillers.  Was the HTE-2 known as the Raven?

 I don't believe that the Royal Navy named it's Hiller HT.1s or HT.2s, Raven was the US Army/USAF name for the H-23 series, not sure if the HTE-2 got a name as such.

[perdu]

8 hours ago, limeypilot said:

SOMETHING had to tow a Sedburgh... the bloody thing had the glide ratio of a brick, although slightly better than the Cadet.....

 

Ian

Yes I know Ian, I flew both of them in my indiscreet youth

 

First flight in a Cadet, pilot chappie shouts "put your arms inside or we'll stall when the tow drops!"

 

I think he was kidding, but...

 

I was happier with the Sedbergh but cadets today, they don't know they're living