Wessex Colors

[TimB]

The yellow blade was introduced mostly to help low flying fast jet aircrew avoid SAR ac on training flights - on "real" ops, the airspace was dedicated for SAR use.  They were not needed in NI, as there were no low flying fast jets - just lots of helos and the odd anti-ac RPG.  Bear in mind that there were a lot more SAR ac and fast jets in and around the UK than now..

 

Tim

[Black Knight]

On a rescue I was involved in, we were about 200 feet above the rescue helicopter. It didn't have a yellow blade on top, but boys-a-dear it would have helped. We had to keep one person on watch to make sure our rescue party didnt swing out near the helicopter. It was hard to see the rotation disc in the weather.

 

Perdu: all the RAF training was running through my head. Plus it was within 'bandit' territory. First priority; get to scene and assess the situation. To find a foot-patrol of squaddies and a Wessex taking off. Back to my place for tea and bickies. How many army squaddies can you fit in/on a Ford Sierra?!

 

apologies - I digress and drifted

[goggsy]

Apologies for wandering off topic slightly, but I found a few pictures of the crashed sea king I mentioned previously. They aren't mine, I found them on another forum. The incident apparently happened in April 1991.

 

 

 

Oddly the rotor blades don't appear to be damaged, but judging by what people have said on here I don't suppose it would take much of a knock to put them out of whack. I'm guessing that if they had been totally smashed then the whole thing would have plummeted like a stone and the outcome would have been very different.

[Wez]

Hiya Folks,

              This yellow rotor blade has got people going hasn`t it!

 

Coming from a SAR pilot it was DEFINITELY part of the SAR fit, which I think we can all definitely agree and I love the story of the Sea King in the lakes by the way!...

 

The SAR configured Wessex of 72 Sqn would have benefitted from all of these (the Nimrod one is probably the strongest one-what do you think?) and I stand by what I said that the yellow blade would have been fitted for this role requirement even to an aircraft whose main role requirement when not on SAR standby was Support Helicopter work. One thread that I was reading on the internet about 72 Sqn`s disbandment celebrations asked why did the 72 Sqn SAR Wessex at Aldergrove ALWAYS have one of its rotor blades painted yellow! 

 

Ian at Heritage was on 72 Sqn at Aldergrove for many years so maybe he could tell us? I`ll PM him,

 

Cheers

          Tony O      

 

-

 

Tony,

 

Whilst I agree that dedicated SAR assets would have a yellow blade fitted these are a world away from SH assets role configured to SAR fit, it really isn't as simple as saying "Oh we need a cab roled for SAR make sure you pop a yellow blade on it"!  It's such  a large amount of un-needed, unwanted and unnecessary work it simply isn't going to happen - there's just too much work involved!

 

Which is why I say if a 72 Sqn cab had a yellow blade fitted it's just because the best match blade to replace a u/s one was yellow!

 

Wez

Edited January 13, 2013 by Wez

[tonyot]

Tony,

 

Whilst I agree that dedicated SAR assets would have a yellow blade fitted these are a world away from SH assets role configured to SAR fit, it really isn't as simple as saying "Oh we need a cab roled for SAR make sure you pop a yellow blade on it"!  It's such  a large amount of un-needed, unwanted and unnecessary work it simply isn't going to happen - there's just too much work involved!

 

Which is why I say if a 72 Sqn cab had a yellow blade fitted it's just because the best match blade to replace a u/s one was yellow!

 

Wez

Hiya Wez,

              What I`m trying to say is that 72 Sqn did have a full SAR commitment over N.Ireland and out over the Atlantic as well as their Support Helicopter tasking and therefore they would have had a few aircraft fitted out for the SAR role to enable one of them to be on immediate standby every day. It was a very large unit with lots of cabs on charge so this would not have been a problem. Of course the other SAR roled helos would have been used for SAR taskings when not on standby, which was not ideal considering that there were angry paddys out there with guns trying to shoot them down,  but as far as I can tell it was RAF procedure to have a SAR tasked aircraft fully fitted out and if it says in RAF regs that a SAR helo should have a yellow blade then it would have one, end of,.....since when have the Armed Forces ever used logic to solve anything?.!  I don`t know whether you have any experience of the RAF in particular but they do insist on following their procedures to the letter, dotting every `I' and crossing every `t'? I`ve spent extra days out in the field and walked a lot of extra miles because the RAF could not attend an RV due to flying hours running out, too much rain, cloud and 101 other reasons! Sometimes the Navy just appeared out of nowhere in a Jungly instead and told us to get in! 

 

All the best mate,

                      Tony O  

[Grizzly]

Hiya Wez,

              What I`m trying to say is that 72 Sqn did have a full SAR commitment over N.Ireland and out over the Atlantic as well as their Support Helicopter tasking and therefore they would have had a few aircraft fitted out for the SAR role to enable one of them to be on immediate standby every day. It was a very large unit with lots of cabs on charge so this would not have been a problem. Of course the other SAR roled helos would have been used for SAR taskings when not on standby, which was not ideal considering that there were angry paddys out there with guns trying to shoot them down,  but as far as I can tell it was RAF procedure to have a SAR tasked aircraft fully fitted out and if it says in RAF regs that a SAR helo should have a yellow blade then it would have one, end of,.....since when have the Armed Forces ever used logic to solve anything?.!  I don`t know whether you have any experience of the RAF in particular but they do insist on following their procedures to the letter, dotting every `I' and crossing every `t'? I`ve spent extra days out in the field and walked a lot of extra miles because the RAF could not attend an RV due to flying hours running out, too much rain, cloud and 101 other reasons! Sometimes the Navy just appeared out of nowhere in a Jungly instead and told us to get in! 

 

All the best mate,

                      Tony O  

The Royal Navy fly in all weathers ,they are not afraid to get their aircraft wet !!!!! Fly Navy

[tarlucan]

Lets finally try to clear up some of these points.

 

The first question was about blade markings/colouring: I recall dark green upper/black lower with two sets of yellow parallel trestle markings and one red stripe, each on both surfaces. Blade tip caps were yellow but never used by pilots for a hover reference; the crewman may have done so. The leading edge was clear neoprene tape that would give a semi-gloss look.

 

72 Sqn certainly never had the flexibility to have multiple aircraft roled for SAR. During daylight hours, just about any serviceable cab with a winch fitted could be nominated as the V813 (name of the main dispersal landing site) standby. It was the duty crewman’s job to ensure that it was roled with the appropriate cabin equipment. This was particularly the case for night standby where a short notice call out was more likely. During the day, if time permitted, more experienced SAR crews would be drafted for their expertise as many crews had never served a SAR tour (or ever wanted to)!

 

The yellow blade certainly made its first appearance at the end of the eighties and may well have been following some edit from 1 Gp about SAR cabs having a yellow blade for conspicuity. If there was flex in the system, then the V813 cab may well have been the one with it fitted, as nobody tasking in S Armagh sure as hell wanted it. If that cab was needed for training or other single day tasking, then it would be used and the cabin equipment changed accordingly. Equally, were that cab to go U/S, the blade would not have been changed to another. There was a great deal of work done at this time with regards to colour scheme changes (from green/grey/black to green/green) as well as paint make up. There were in fact light grey and all black trials done. The last thing that ROWETU (Rotary wing eval and test unit) wanted was to make SH cabs easier to see.

 

Finally, Navy weather regs were indeed less stringent than RAF ones as they could operate COCISS (clear of cloud in site of surface) but that was mandated by the fact that overwater, you often had no idea what the horizontal visibility was so how could you limit it? Equally, they high tailed out of NI when the Falklands War started and simply forgot to return for about 10 years!

 

RAF crew duty periods were shorter than the AAC but we could actually fly more hours in 24 than they could. The principle was that if you did get called out in the middle of the night, you weren’t too knackered to operate safely.

[tonyot]

The AAC never turned out to pick me up from the field, they were too busy trying to look Gucci & pretending to act as flying tankies killing tanks! I do appreciate the differing weather requirements between RAF & Fleet Air Arm operations and was only pulling the RAF`s leg, they did turn up sometimes to prevent me from having to tab instead and I do actually have a lot of time for Crab Air`s rotary department, it was them who put me forward for my GOC`s Commendation (although the trainee Herk crew from the OCU who put the red light on too soon and left a load of us hanging injured from barbed wire fences way off the DZ are not really at the top of my Christmas Card list!)

Thanks for your in depth info regarding 72 Sqn ops from NI,they certainly did a fantastic job in the province, especially following the Falklands and I wish that they were flying Merlins now!

All the best

Tony O

[huvut76g7gbbui7]

Lets finally try to clear up some of these points.

 

The first question was about blade markings/colouring: I recall dark green upper/black lower with two sets of yellow parallel trestle markings and one red stripe, each on both surfaces. Blade tip caps were yellow but never used by pilots for a hover reference; the crewman may have done so. The leading edge was clear neoprene tape that would give a semi-gloss look.

 

72 Sqn certainly never had the flexibility to have multiple aircraft roled for SAR. During daylight hours, just about any serviceable cab with a winch fitted could be nominated as the V813 (name of the main dispersal landing site) standby. It was the duty crewman’s job to ensure that it was roled with the appropriate cabin equipment. This was particularly the case for night standby where a short notice call out was more likely. During the day, if time permitted, more experienced SAR crews would be drafted for their expertise as many crews had never served a SAR tour (or ever wanted to)!

 

The yellow blade certainly made its first appearance at the end of the eighties and may well have been following some edit from 1 Gp about SAR cabs having a yellow blade for conspicuity. If there was flex in the system, then the V813 cab may well have been the one with it fitted, as nobody tasking in S Armagh sure as hell wanted it. If that cab was needed for training or other single day tasking, then it would be used and the cabin equipment changed accordingly. Equally, were that cab to go U/S, the blade would not have been changed to another. There was a great deal of work done at this time with regards to colour scheme changes (from green/grey/black to green/green) as well as paint make up. There were in fact light grey and all black trials done. The last thing that ROWETU (Rotary wing eval and test unit) wanted was to make SH cabs easier to see.

 

Finally, Navy weather regs were indeed less stringent than RAF ones as they could operate COCISS (clear of cloud in site of surface) but that was mandated by the fact that overwater, you often had no idea what the horizontal visibility was so how could you limit it? Equally, they high tailed out of NI when the Falklands War started and simply forgot to return for about 10 years!

 

RAF crew duty periods were shorter than the AAC but we could actually fly more hours in 24 than they could. The principle was that if you did get called out in the middle of the night, you weren’t too knackered to operate safely.

A black Wessex!  Now that's one I never knew about. Any photographs or description of markings of this one ?

Continuing on colours:72Sqn (among others) took part in an exercise called 'Ferryvac'  (Sometime in late eighties) A Caledonian MacBrayne ferry with troops on board simulated a major fire and the helicopters rescued the survivors and flew them to Tarbert,LochFyne.

One of the aircraft was overall green (I thought it was a Navy one at first) I was very close and it wasn't two greens.

I was too busy receiving the casualties so didn't get its serial.

Does anyone know it?

 

Richard

[perdu]

I have a few pictures captured form all over the interweb for my favourite aircraft

 

 

Here she blows- in black  looks like XR523... ?

 

And here for fun - sky blue

 

 

 

XR523 again must have been some ones least favourite cab maybe...

 

 

somewhere nestling in the dark corridors of my hard drive is a light aircraft-ish grey one too

 

anyone want white?

[Grizzly]

I have a few pictures captured form all over the interweb for my favourite aircraft

 

 

Here she blows- in black  looks like XR523... ?

 

And here for fun - sky blue

 

 

 

XR523 again must have been some ones least favourite cab maybe...

 

 

somewhere nestling in the dark corridors of my hard drive is a light aircraft-ish grey one too

 

anyone want white?

Two HU5c machines were paint one Black & one White while with 85 Sqn with light blue UN band.

[tonyot]

Those pics look great, the light grey one must have `won' the competition as that is what 84 Sqn in Cyprus ended up wearing when they converted back onto the Wessex HC.2.

Cheers for digging those out,

Tony O

[heloman1]

Unless I'm missing somethign they are both HC2's, small cabin windows and crab aerial fit. I do however like the black one, is ths the same sort of exrecise that was carried out at Culdrose with the Navy cabs and odd looking camo schemes?

 

Colin

[huvut76g7gbbui7]

Perdu..Thank you for posting these.

Looking at the black one it looks as if it had been done in the grey first as the serial,Royal Air Force titles and tail rotor danger marking appears to be on the grey and have been masked off.

(Wonder if it had a yellow blade..OK I'll get my coat!)

Heloman..was that the trial in the late sixties with some almost red ?

At the risk of straying even further from the original topic,does anyone know the serial of an overall green HAS3 which I saw working at Kyle of Lochalsh in the late seventies?

I'm enjoying this thread.It is amazing how much you can learn even about an aircraft you think you know quite a lot about.

Now anyone for the black Israeli KC-707

Got my coat.

Richard

[perdu]

I think you are right scimitar, I found these browsing pprune's paean to the Wessex last year

 

Not apparently XR523 again in the basic light grey, ID letter N instead of M  

 

I love the pale red (pink) jet pipe warning ring

 

I think this may be yet another Air Force one for me

 

I am going to knock out a HAS 3 first though, I'd hate the Navy to think I'm biased  (too biased anyway)

 

I see the "well known blade weight creep" issue is evident in this picture too

 

 

(I was right about somewhere in my hard drive, blimey I really should get it reorganised, three lots of Wessex pix has to be overkill

 

 

bill

 

Edited January 16, 2013 by perdu

[tonyot]

Unless I'm missing somethign they are both HC2's, small cabin windows and crab aerial fit. I do however like the black one, is ths the same sort of exrecise that was carried out at Culdrose with the Navy cabs and odd looking camo schemes?

 

Colin

Hiya Colin,

I think that Perdu was trying to say that as well as these HC.2`s in N.Ireland there were also some 84 Sqn HU.5`s in Cyprus doing colour trials at the same time too. Around this time I remember seeing light grey, white and dark green Herks at Lyneham and earlier in the late 1980`s there was an awful pink coloured one which we felt embarrassed about jumping out of- of course by 1991 we found out that this awful pink was in fact the ARTF desert finish that was applied to almost everything during the 1st Gulf War,...but I`m going well off theme now.

Going back to Wessex, there were some wonderful photos of a few of 84 Sqn overall yellow HAR.2`s (that's before the HU.5`s were in use)with blue UN bands, some of which were finished in a hand painted camouflage using accommodation block magnolia interior paint and green (?) for flights into Lebanon, but they had to stay away after their strange looking helicopters were almost shot down by the Yanks,...same old same old!

All the best

Tony O

[perdu]

Hiya Colin,

I think that Perdu was trying to say that as well as these HC.2`s in N.Ireland there were also some 84 Sqn HU.5`s in Cyprus doing colour trials at the same time too. Around this time I remember seeing light grey, white and dark green Herks at Lyneham and earlier in the late 1980`s there was an awful pink coloured one which we felt embarrassed about jumping out of- of course by 1991 we found out that this awful pink was in fact the ARTF desert finish that was applied to almost everything during the 1st Gulf War,...but I`m going well off theme now.

Going back to Wessex, there were some wonderful photos of a few of 84 Sqn overall yellow HAR.2`s (that's before the HU.5`s were in use)with blue UN bands, some of which were finished in a hand painted camouflage using accommodation block magnolia interior paint and green (?) for flights into Lebanon, but they had to stay away after their strange looking helicopters were almost shot down by the Yanks,...same old same old!

All the best

Tony O

I wasnt talking about the ones in Cyprus, they come in as new info for me

 

But I remembered Don (per ardua ad ostentatium -ish) posting a picture of a cab they'd painted in non standard colours, showed the OC's car similarly mistreated I have that picture too) and here is the picture of it. Somewhat similar but different

 

Is it the one Tony is referring to I wonder, I know Don said they had to strip it double damned quick for military reasons?

 

[tonyot]

That's the one, and sorry for misinterpreting what you said earlier, I thought that you meant the HU.5`s in Cyprus!

I wonder if anybody is brave enough to build a model of the Lebanon camo finish, I suppose the best match for the lighter colour would be from the B + Q living room range, although knowing the MoD it would be more like Wickes? I might have a dabble in 1/72nd by cross kitting the Italeri Choctaw and Wessex HU.5 kits,.......Oh how I wish that Italeri would cross the fuselage pieces over to allow the Wessex HC.2 to be done from the box!

Cheers

         Tony O

[huvut76g7gbbui7]

Rotorcraft/A2Zee models have a Wessex correction set in 1/72 in the pipeline.Don't know if they will include the panels with the smaller windows though.

Perhaps Colin can tempt us further ?

Richard

[heloman1]

Sorry guys if I sowed some confusion there, certainly not intended. A cross kitting of the H-34 and the Wessex 5 should work a treat.

 

Colin

[perdu]

That's the one, and sorry for misinterpreting what you said earlier, I thought that you meant the HU.5`s in Cyprus!

I wonder if anybody is brave enough to build a model of the Lebanon camo finish, I suppose the best match for the lighter colour would be from the B + Q living room range, although knowing the MoD it would be more like Wickes? I might have a dabble in 1/72nd by cross kitting the Italeri Choctaw and Wessex HU.5 kits,.......Oh how I wish that Italeri would cross the fuselage pieces over to allow the Wessex HC.2 to be done from the box!

Cheers

         Tony O

No worries Tony

 

as to making that special finish, I can't see it winning at the SMW this year but the nearest out of the tin I can envisage is the "old Eighth Army Desert Yellow from Humbrol's much lamented lost Authentics range. Looking at the picture it would be a dead ringer.

 

I made the Matchbox HU5 into an HC2 by making new windows and adding a narrowing piece to the frame area on the fuselage halves. It wasn't really difficult, then by adding the correct underside piping and ducting and seats inside for the PAX it was painting time

 

After fixing that horrible nose contour and filter box too.

 

Mind you, I would look kind heartedly at a reasonably inexpensive substitute for all that work 

 

 

bill

[heloman1]

Rotorcraft/A2Zee models have a Wessex correction set in 1/72 in the pipeline.Don't know if they will include the panels with the smaller windows though.

Perhaps Colin can tempt us further ?

Richard

Hi Richard. Indeed there are two available already, trot along to www.a2zeemodels.co.za and have look. The first kit RC-4807 is for the HC2 and RC-4808 is for the HAR2 Hannants ahve decals inthe Xtradeals range. New windows, fuselage underside insert and some extras. Also available is the folded tail RC-4809 with corrected gearbox housing and some PE grill parts.

 

To drift away from the HC/HAR's I'm getting a set to convet my first kit which was the donor for the HAS1conversion set to produce an early HAS Mk1 from the IFTU.

 

To Bills question, I'm going to revist my 72nd 3s, 5s,1s and 2's Wessex conversion sets later this year.

 

Colin @ ROTORcraft

[tonyot]

Colin,

        With regard to the question about 72nd scale RAF Wessex conversion parts, those numbers appear to be for the 48th scale sets that you`ve just done,...have you done some 72nd scale Wessex HC.2 & HAR.2 conversions sets too are you getting confused in your old age?

Cheers

        Tony O

[James P M]

Ok all,i can answer the question ref the Wessex in Black and Grey.

 

This was part of a trial into colour schemes in Oct-Nov 91.72 Sqn painted one Black and the other was primer Grey.Both i saw whilst serving with TSW RAF at  Bessbrook Mill late Oct91.The Black one stood out like a sore thumb at night at Bessbrook.The Grey one flew 14 knots faster due to being lighter.

[huvut76g7gbbui7]

 Hello Colin...I normally only work in 1/72 but broke the rule for the Wessex.

These sets are very nice and will be on models 2 and 3. I had made my own window panels and modified the underside of the first when you announced yours.Typical!

I e-mailed Alistair last night and he tells me 1/72 set is on back-burner.Perhaps the interest here could persuade a re-think?

Couldn't open your link.Should it be .co.uk?

Richard

Hi Richard. Indeed there are two available already, trot along to www.a2zeemodels.co.za and have look. The first kit RC-4807 is for the HC2 and RC-4808 is for the HAR2 Hannants ahve decals inthe Xtradeals range. New windows, fuselage underside insert and some extras. Also available is the folded tail RC-4809 with corrected gearbox housing and some PE grill parts.

 

To drift away from the HC/HAR's I'm getting a set to convet my first kit which was the donor for the HAS1conversion set to produce an early HAS Mk1 from the IFTU.

 

To Bills question, I'm going to revist my 72nd 3s, 5s,1s and 2's Wessex conversion sets later this year.

 

Colin @ ROTORcraft