RAF Phantom flaps

[KingTiger435]

currently researching RAF phantoms (FG.1s especially), I am planning on making mine parked on the ground, everything off.

 

From photos I've seen, sometimes the outer flap is down but the inner large flap is up, what's the deal? Am I seeing it wrong?

 

References that support this:

https://www.airfighters.com/photo/218927/L/UK-Air-Force/McDonnell-Douglas-F-4-Phantom-FG1-F-4K/XV573/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/chrisengland/39574176992

https://media.abpic.co.uk/pictures/full_size_0539/1820838-large.jpg

 

I also have a few other questions, such as the airbrakes - do they stay closed when everything is off?

 

Thanks for any input people could give me on this.

[Selwyn]

Bit puzzled,  The Flaps appear down on all three pictures, and there are no outer flaps on Phantoms

,  Are you getting confused about the folded wingtips?

 

Selwyn

[KingTiger435]

5 minutes ago, Selwyn said:

Bit puzzled,  The Flaps appear down on all three pictures, and there are no outer flaps on Phantoms

,  Are you getting confused about the folded wingtips?

 

Selwyn

I apologize

After consulting some diagrams, I have learned that what I thought was an outer set of flaps are actually the "drooping ailerons", I'm still not sure on the positioning though...

found another photo where the drooping aileron is down but the flap isn't.

https://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/phantom/full/dux00215.jpg

but then again... this website calls it a "flap" not an aileron so I'm puzzled yet again. Is this control surface multiple purpose?

 

[Dave Swindell]

2 hours ago, KingTiger435 said:

From photos I've seen, sometimes the outer flap is down but the inner large flap is up, what's the deal? Am I seeing it wrong?

No, you've got your terminoligy wrong. The flaps are the inner portion of the trailing edge, the outer portion you're referring to is the aileron. These drooped with power off, and also dropped when the flaps were lowered.

[KingTiger435]

16 minutes ago, Dave Swindell said:

No, you've got your terminoligy wrong. The flaps are the inner portion of the trailing edge, the outer portion you're referring to is the aileron. These drooped with power off, and also dropped when the flaps were lowered.

thanks, do you know if the airbrakes also drooped with power off?

[Binbrooksumpy]

From memory airbrake were pretty dangerous on Phantoms (I can only speak for Uk versions).

On taxiing in to HAS pilots would normally leave air brakes out (down) for checking as part of AF/BF.
On or just before engine shutdown we would plug in a Houchin to provide electrical ground power.
If ground power tripped off for any reason and the engines weren’t running, the airbrakes would snap shut under residual hydraulic pressure.
I never put my head, hands or extremities anywhere near the airbrake bay when doing AF/BF without an airbrake lock installed.

So with everything off airbrakes were down (and lock installed). If no lock installed they were closed.
I don’t recall if they ever drooped due to loss of Hyd pressure over time.

Hope this helps and my memory is good (it was 35 years ago)

[sloegin57]

2 hours ago, KingTiger435 said:

thanks, do you know if the airbrakes also drooped with power off?

Yes they did, after a while : -

Also if the wing locks were left out,

the tips went all floppy :-

My Photo from Eng Ops window.

 

HTH

Dennis

 

[Duncan B]

On 7/15/2023 at 12:47 AM, Binbrooksumpy said:

From memory airbrake were pretty dangerous on Phantoms (I can only speak for Uk versions).

On taxiing in to HAS pilots would normally leave air brakes out (down) for checking as part of AF/BF.
On or just before engine shutdown we would plug in a Houchin to provide electrical ground power.
If ground power tripped off for any reason and the engines weren’t running, the airbrakes would snap shut under residual hydraulic pressure.
I never put my head, hands or extremities anywhere near the airbrake bay when doing AF/BF without an airbrake lock installed.

So with everything off airbrakes were down (and lock installed). If no lock installed they were closed.
I don’t recall if they ever drooped due to loss of Hyd pressure over time.

Hope this helps and my memory is good (it was 35 years ago)

Yep, that's true, very nasty things scared me every time I had to go near them. They were always parked open with ground locks fitted in our hangar. They would droop slightly if not driven open but only a little as there wasn't a lot of weight to them.

 

Duncan B

[sloegin57]

3 hours ago, Duncan B said:

Yep, that's true, very nasty things scared me every time I had to go near them. They were always parked open with ground locks fitted in our hangar. They would droop slightly if not driven open but only a little as there wasn't a lot of weight to them.

 

Duncan B

Duncan,

Do you recall the young member of the WRAF, engine mech I believe, got her left elbow trapped when the airbrake she was near slammed shut and she could not move fast enough to get out of the way ?

Dennis

[pigsty]

On 7/15/2023 at 2:01 AM, sloegin57 said:

My Photo from Eng Ops window

That's an interesting picture.  It also suggests that the mainwheels were canted inwards slightly at the bottom.  I'd always assumed they were dead vertical.  Must remember that when I get to my next Phantom.

[iainpeden]

Going back to that sketch - I thought, but might be wrong, that what is labelled as the leading edge flap is actually always closed - maybe even locked shut. Don't forget the open air auxiliary doors underneath which were usually open on the ground

[Jabba]

21 minutes ago, iainpeden said:

Going back to that sketch - I thought, but might be wrong, that what is labelled as the leading edge flap is actually always closed - maybe even locked shut. Don't forget the open air auxiliary doors underneath which were usually open on the ground

 

On British Phantoms the very inboard section of the leading edge was hinged, but was bolted in place so would not move when the other flaps are operated. I had to remove and fit these screws many times whilst on Phantom majors at Saints.

 

One thing to also rememeber is the the ailerons only moved downwards, not going above neutral where they stayed whilst the spoiler then moved upwards.

[Duncan B]

22 hours ago, sloegin57 said:

Duncan,

Do you recall the young member of the WRAF, engine mech I believe, got her left elbow trapped when the airbrake she was near slammed shut and she could not move fast enough to get out of the way ?

Dennis

Don't remember that one Dennis, maybe before my time.

 

Duncan B

[KingTiger435]

Thanks for all the help everyone, this was for a phantom I was building, it is done now.