C130,XV208, One plane, 3 very different stories.

[Scooby]

On 11/28/2023 at 10:36 PM, Bell209 said:

It's the outlet for the pressurisation Outflow Valve, which is located under the navigator's desk and is very difficult to access for a 6' tall gent (ask me how I know!).

And if you are doing a pressurization test during a ground run and are trying to blow the valve, you will find out fast if you have an inner ear infection. I was doubled over in pain and we had to do an emergency shutdown. Over 30 years ago and I still remember that day.

[ColinChipmunkfan]

Really enjoying this C130 masterclass.  I have one in the stash which I hope to start in the near future.  This thread will be my main reference point.  Thank you.

[MrB17]

Really enjoying your builds here. Lots of good information and memories. I have the same Airfix kit and 2 Zvezda kits, and have a lot of work ahead of me, but thanks to you, I will save time knowing exactly what to do without so much research.

I read earlier about some large chocks you had seen, and then I remembered the ice chocks we often used. They were welded steel tubing and had 5 ice cleats on the bottom. They were also used for run ups as well because the Herk would be less likely to jump the chocks. We also used them when we ran out of the rubber triangular cross section ones, when the ramp was full of aircraft. Here is a photo of CC-130E 130310 with the ice chocks in place. I’m not sure if this is what you were referring to, but I thought this may be of use. 
The flight deck air conditioning dump valve mentioned earlier and referred to by @Scooby and @Bell209, was often prone to sticking. The reason was nicotine buildup, and the solution was to clean it with MEK on a rag. I’m 6’2” and getting at it was not fun, made worse by the scratches on my hand from lock wire etc. were becoming uncomfortably painful due to the MEK!  Back in those days, there were ashtrays on the flight deck, they were semi spherical about the size of half a grapefruit and painted black. Anyway this is a great build to follow with some great input from other Herk ground crew and aircrew.

Excellent work!

The ice chocks mentioned above are yellow and of fairly simple construction. I think the photo was taken at CFB Trenton, I was based at CFB Namao.

 

Cheers

 

Jeff

[Scooby]

3 hours ago, MrB17 said:

Really enjoying your builds here. Lots of good information and memories. I have the same Airfix kit and 2 Zvezda kits, and have a lot of work ahead of me, but thanks to you, I will save time knowing exactly what to do without so much research.

I read earlier about some large chocks you had seen, and then I remembered the ice chocks we often used. They were welded steel tubing and had 5 ice cleats on the bottom. They were also used for run ups as well because the Herk would be less likely to jump the chocks. We also used them when we ran out of the rubber triangular cross section ones, when the ramp was full of aircraft. Here is a photo of CC-130E 130310 with the ice chocks in place. I’m not sure if this is what you were referring to, but I thought this may be of use. 
The flight deck air conditioning dump valve mentioned earlier and referred to by @Scooby and @Bell209, was often prone to sticking. The reason was nicotine buildup, and the solution was to clean it with MEK on a rag. I’m 6’2” and getting at it was not fun, made worse by the scratches on my hand from lock wire etc. were becoming uncomfortably painful due to the MEK!  Back in those days, there were ashtrays on the flight deck, they were semi spherical about the size of half a grapefruit and painted black. Anyway this is a great build to follow with some great input from other Herk ground crew and aircrew.

Excellent work!

The ice chocks mentioned above are yellow and of fairly simple construction. I think the photo was taken at CFB Trenton, I was based at CFB Namao.

 

Cheers

 

Jeff

I never heard them being referred to as ice chocks, we called then run-up chocks. There was a plate at the bottom that we pulled the aircraft onto, so we were seated on them. For run-ups we only had a rubber chock at the back. I recall them being much bigger and were painted OD. Yeah, that photo is Trenton.

[MrB17]

2 hours ago, Scooby said:

I never heard them being referred to as ice chocks, we called then run-up chocks. There was a plate at the bottom that we pulled the aircraft onto, so we were seated on them. For run-ups we only had a rubber chock at the back. I recall them being much bigger and were painted OD. Yeah, that photo is Trenton.

I think the ones you’re referring to may have been a result of the incident at Trenton, when 328 jumped the chocks and ran into 320. That was in 83, I was long gone by then. The ones @Head in the clouds. talked about, sound more like the run up chocks you are describing. The ice chocks are smaller by the sound of it.

[Head in the clouds.]

20 hours ago, ColinChipmunkfan said:

Really enjoying this C130 masterclass.  I have one in the stash which I hope to start in the near future.  This thread will be my main reference point.  Thank you.

Thank you for your kind words @ColinChipmunkfan I hope I can continue to keep you entertained and suitably supplied with ideas and inspiration....and a little research material.😁

 

17 hours ago, MrB17 said:

Really enjoying your builds here. Lots of good information and memories. I have the same Airfix kit and 2 Zvezda kits, and have a lot of work ahead of me, but thanks to you, I will save time knowing exactly what to do without so much research.

Cheers @MrB17 glad the thread is bringing back some good memories for you and it is also very welcomed when people like yourselves share those memories with us all here.

While those chocks look substantial they have a bit of grow to do before reaching these monsters;

I don't think these chocks will get jumped.

 

It is hard to believe that just like cars of the day your CC130's had ashtrays in the cockpit and smoking was Ok, how times change. As for MEK, your cuts and grazes can't play hide and seek with that stuff, like you I found out the hard way...🤣

 

11 hours ago, MrB17 said:

sound more like the run up chocks you are describing.

That makes sense considering the pic above, it looks like XV208 has run up onto plates like you describe. I now know what their official name was so hopefully Marshalls will have an idea of what I am talking about when I contact them...again😁. Thanks @MrB17, another mystery solved.

 

[amos brierley]

Hello everyone.                     My earliest photo of XV208.

 

Hi @woody37 I’ve just been searching my past history box, sadly I can’t find my blue flight log book, I’ve seen it recently, it’s in that safe place called ‘god knows where’!
 

What I can tell you Woody is this, I very well remember several Herk flights all to well. Firstly whilst I was serving in the RAF  at Laarbruch Germany I was 20Sqn pan trash but I was shipped out with 2Sqn on the evening 12th Jan 1990 landing at Cyprus for fuel then flying in ‘hot’ to King Abdul Aziz air base on the morning of 13th Jan - from Operation Desert Shield shortly after became Gulf War 1. All the way there I slept on top of part of our load of equipment, a Houchin ground power unit, it was a damn comfortable sleep. You’re lucky to get me in this good mood, because for a long long while I couldn’t stand anything about this time of my life, P.T.S.D Gulf War Syndrome was a dark side of my life. But, I’ve been making headway into this problem more so recently. So here goes a world first, “Amos “ at war. (I hope this doesn’t offend anyone.)

 

 

Secondly Woody, for those that don’t know being in the Air Cadets that is affiliated with a current RAF squadron had its benefits. Where possible we blagged some pleasure flights, whilst Woody was having a pleasurable time “Amossy” was in a bad place. So, I love all things t’do with aeroplanes, I work at BAE Systems on Eurofighter’s , love museums, model aeroplanes, history, everything aerospace except just one little thing, getting in them and getting air born. The flight that you’re remembering I hope I was on it too went like this: something didn’t ent sit well with me on this day. 🫢 My dad Trevor came along as well, as he was civilian volunteer, as we were taxing I felt less than happy, then we went roaring down the runway and just at the point of rotation - oh lord - I was ill.        My dad said I was no son of his. Charming.  🙄. And another thing, the last time I was on a Puma hedge hopping that didn’t end well either……..

 

Well, enough sand bagging.      

 

Hi @Head in the clouds., the above photo of XV208 got me thinking and whilst I was trundling down memory lane I thought this photo was relevant. As I worked at Marshals Aerospace and this aeroplane was one of the last that I worked on, this is what I can tell you about it, it’s taken circa 1973 and it’s on the engine running pan, the big ‘bund’ of earth in the background gives this away. I paid this spot a visit on a few occasions…….
 

 

Thanks for looking.        😉

 

Edited March 21 by amos brierley
Better grammar.

[Head in the clouds.]

9 hours ago, amos brierley said:

(I hope this doesn’t offend anyone.)

Not I Amos, I stand in absolute respect for anyone whom has served and you all have my lifelong thanks for doing so.

 

When you took the shot of 'Snoopy' while at Marshalls of Cambridge it was at the beginning of it's life as the iconic aircraft we know and love today. While working on it did you ever see the fabled Elephant with the red and white trunk that I spoke of in earlier posts?

[amos brierley]

1 hour ago, Head in the clouds. said:

did you ever see the fabled Elephant with the red and white trunk that I spoke of in earlier posts?

Sadly no I didn’t,  at sometime in 1997 when it rolled up I’d never have been able to make a model of it (XV208) and I just wasn’t aware of stuff ( the big picture.) Now a days I’m much more savvy to taking in stuff. Whether the Elephant had packed his trunk and gone to Marshalls I don’t know. 🙂  This is a problem I’ve had for years, if I can’t make a model of it then it’s not getting photographed, that’s why in the past 10 years I’ve had to go back to various museums to pick up missing pieces. Times change and so has this “Amos”.  😉    
 

( As an aside I use Fighter Control for photos, Marshals are still servicing and repairing all things Hercules, the variety of operators is way bigger than when I was there.) 

[MarcNewitt]

I remember sitting on the fence at Cambridge, watching the engine runs. It wasn't until I finally got a job with Marshall Aerospace, that I got anywhere near her, tucked away between the hangars. That was a sad site to see. I sadly had to leave for medical reasons before they won the contract to service the USMC Herks but we did get a couple of AC-130s stripped of all the armament, in for repairs. Good times.

[Head in the clouds.]

11 hours ago, MarcNewitt said:

I remember sitting on the fence at Cambridge, watching the engine runs.

Hello @MarcNewitt. I have sat at that fence many times doing what you did, Cambridge airport affords good viewing points around the perimiter and you never know what will drop in or be sat on the test bay.

[woody37]

Sorry for contributing to thread drift, but I think it shows how much affection and relevance the Herc had in many peoples lives.

 

@amos brierley, my memories fade now of our times back them, but I do remember vividly one flight with 20-30 cadets on board doing several hours of 'touch n goes'. Many were sick and the 'liquid' was swishing around on the floor as we continually descended and climbed! Oh, the smell 🤣

[MrB17]

2 hours ago, woody37 said:

and the 'liquid' was swishing around on the floor

We had some high tech equipment for removing the floor panels, a speeder with a fresh bit and a stainless steel hand made pick for removing all the packed in crud from the screws. No power tools back then for screwing or unscrewing. Good times.

 

Very much loving your builds @Head in the clouds.

 

Cheers

 

Jeff

[amos brierley]

We still use a speedy brace these days, and use a ‘remove #10 bit’ , the remove bit has serrations on the remove side to grip . My favourite tip is to press down hard then turn, when that fails I go and get a fresh bit with fresh teeth    failing that I go back to stores and try some stuff called ezygrip. It’s like a gritty brown soup , it fills in the metal that some knuckle head has graunched away. Failing this I go and get some bloke called Neil , why?  Coz he’s got 💪 .  ( Strong in the arm, thick in YED , as the saying goes.) Now if this fails which it rarely does, it’s back stores for the hernia bar kit, and finally if this rascal can’t sort out the problem it’s back to stores for the riggers kit and break out the drills and easy out bits. 🧰 ggggrrrrr.       😉

[Head in the clouds.]

14 hours ago, woody37 said:

Sorry for contributing to thread drift, but I think it shows how much affection and relevance the Herc had in many peoples lives.

 

No worries @woody37, there is no Herc without Erks and their stories to tell, the human element is as fascinating as the mechanical wizardry. (Other and all trades included..😁)

 

12 hours ago, MrB17 said:

Very much loving your builds

👍

 

11 hours ago, amos brierley said:

We still use a speedy brace these days, and use a ‘remove #10 bit’ , the remove bit has serrations on the remove side to grip . My favourite tip is to press down hard then turn, when that fails I go and get a fresh bit with fresh teeth    failing that I go back to stores and try some stuff called ezygrip. It’s like a gritty brown soup , it fills in the metal that some knuckle head has graunched away. Failing this I go and get some bloke called Neil , why?  Coz he’s got 💪 .  ( Strong in the arm, thick in YED , as the saying goes.) Now if this fails which it rarely does, it’s back stores for the hernia bar kit, and finally if this rascal can’t sort out the problem it’s back to stores for the riggers kit and break out the drills and easy out bits. 🧰 ggggrrrrr.    

😆 At last, something I can relate to, everybody has a ' Neil' somewhere in their tool kit, we had an 'Ozzy,' there was nothing his Ball Peen hammer and sharp half metre swing couldn't sort, if there was anything left to sort was another matter 🤬, he really was our last chance saloon. God bless him.

[Space Ranger]

Following this with interest, as I was recently fortunate to locate the Combat Kits “Snoopy” conversion kit.

How would I contact Mr. Kidson about obtaining a copy of his book?

[Dave Swindell]

42 minutes ago, Space Ranger said:

Following this with interest, as I was recently fortunate to locate the Combat Kits “Snoopy” conversion kit.

How would I contact Mr. Kidson about obtaining a copy of his book?

Mr Alan Kidson [email protected]

[Head in the clouds.]

5 hours ago, Dave Swindell said:

Mr Alan Kidson

Cheers Dave, you beat me to the draw.

 

5 hours ago, Space Ranger said:

Following this with interest, as I was recently fortunate to locate the Combat Kits “Snoopy” conversion kit.

Nice to have you along @Space Ranger. Well done for getting your hands on the conversion, it is a good one on first impressions. I believe they have done another run of them, sure I saw them somewhere.

[Head in the clouds.]

Scribing has stopped...yes you read correctly. I have now finished scribing the Italeri kit which will become Snoopy;

 

To say this has been a mammoth task would not be an overstatement. When you put the wings on as I did for the pic it dawns on you this is not a small piece of plastic. As I stated earlier I used the Zvezda kit as a template even though I know there are incorrect panel lines on that kit but it is better than the others and at least all 3 can look the same. The tricky bit was around the wing root where a panel line loops round
fore and aft, the rest however was straight forward on what is basically a simple airframe.
With this done I can plough on with Snoopy while still doing other bits on the other two, and no, I have not forgotten that I still have the Airfix kit to scribe but let me have a little break....pleaaase!

After ordering some 1.5mm square brass stock I was able to crack on and make the torsion bar that fits between the two Olio's. All that needed to be done was to drill a hole in each end to match the small one in the Olio and slide over some round brass bar, centralise and solder;

 

I am not too sure if it looks too small, I will need to keep that thought at the front of my only active lobe and maybe revisit later.

While tinkering about with the MLG I pondered over the fixing to the MLG bay. Once all the resin is on this kit, 4 engines, the weather radar, probe, wheels and other oddments it could end up being a bit on the porky side so I don't think CA alone is going to cut it. Something more positive is needed.
Working on the Italeri items hole were drilled through where the kit U/C would fit. While the Oleo was held in place a marker was poked through the hole so this gave me my hole position. A 1.2 mm hole was then drilled half way through;

 

Then some 1.2mm brass tube was cut to length, inserted and soldered;

 

I would have had a set of main U/C oleo's had it not been for my last 1.2mm drill bit snapping in the last hole while making the last torsion bar..

 

My two brain cells came to life when I realised I had not checked how the kit item U/C sets sat when in their respective positions so I checked;

Zvezda;

 

Airfix;

 

Italeri;

 

The Zvezda looks bang on the money when compared to pics in the Duke Hawkings book and my own photos from Cosford.
The Airfix looks too low which leads me to ask if I set them correctly will this then mean the nose U/C will now be to high giving a 'kneeling' affect as the 115sq Andovers did. Need to tread carefully here because once the U/C is in and set altering it will be messy.
The Italeri looks high, not a lot but enough to notice so again need to tread carefully.

A little tidy up job that I noticed I had not done was the small oval vent on the starboard side sponson. This gave me a bit of trouble when I tried to make it out of very thin material. What I should have done which is what I did in the end was just get some round brass tube, elongate it with pliers and fix in place...

 

 

All 3 done at the same time.

If you remember in an earlier post I drilled holes to add support bars to stop the wings from drooping and also stop the fuselage from splitting along it's seam, well I had to do the same to the Airfix kit. I choose a different approach this time, dry fitting the wing and using the ejector marks as a guide to drill the holes with the wing in situ. Fast and straight forward unlike my first attempt which was a bit long winded and more prone to mistakes.

 

 

I thought while I was looking at wing strengthening it might be worth looking at the Zvezda kit. This doesn't go together in the traditional way like the Airfix kit with a tab and slot, the fuselage has a cut out with a solid flat surface that the top section of the wing sits on. The underside of the wing then fixes to the underside of the top section and then the outer top wing section sits on top of the lower section and hey presto. This makes for a stronger and more positive fixing than either of the other two kits but I am taking no chances, the port side will have a resin engine twice the size of the Allison diesels so it is getting some reinforcement.

Two pieces of thick plastic card were glued together and then sanded to fit in the gap;

 

 

This was then removed and a length of brass flat bar glued in place;

 

With this and Zvezda's design I am hoping this will be strong enough, especially as the resin replacement sits next to this extra support.

Right then, I am laying up my scribing tools for a little while so next up when I get more drill bits will to make another set of MLG for the Airfix kit. I will be looking at the myriad of minor airframe mods that Snoopy had done and see how we tackle them.

Thanks for dropping by. 

[Head in the clouds.]

Er! Houston, we have a problem.

Well, to be specific I have 12 problems which I never gave a thought about until I started tying together my research for the internals and externals  of Snoopy with regard to the research equipment, but worst of all it has been staring me in the face all along and it just slipped over my shiny head. What have have are 3 similar kits but alas not the same kits so this throws up 3 different sets of minor differences; until now. Powerplants!

 

This started as a single build project with a conversion for the Italeri kit and a Combat Kits Snoopy Conversion, it then grew to include the TP400 testbed with the new, all singing Zvezda kit and finally to to it's current status to include an Airfix kit to give me a 48Sq example. The build thus became a family album build of XV208 from birth to untimely demise. And not once did I consider the variations in the kits other than being blinded by all the talk of chines and engine alignment. Never considered engine shape, size or mounting points did I! Well, I am now!

 

The first variation that caught my eye was the small blended area where the top of the engine nacelle meets the wing, this was noticed while looking at the fuel valve inspection points on top of the wing/fuselage:

 

 

AS can be seen the Airfix kit is wrong as the inner powerplant blend should be much smaller than the outer, although I do not know if this would be correct for the earlier T56-9 powerplants fitted to earlier C130's as they were set further back but for this build they are wrong.

 

The Italeri is correct with regard to inner and outer being the right size but the shape seems a bit ..'podgy'! That is a Wolfpack

 

The  Zvezda offering looks about right but my now eager eye caught something else; it looks like it has gone on a diet. So out with the Vernier;

 

 

The Airfix and Italeri are pretty much identical but the Zvezda engine is a full 2.5mm slimmer, in real life that equates to 180mm. The plot thickens!

 

So what about depth?

Airfix

 

 

Italeri;

 

Zvezda;

 

All three are wildly different here, 24.7mm, 21.9mm and 19.5mm respectively, that is a massive 5.2mm or in real life 374mm. 😱 Wow!

 

Can it get worse....oh yes!

 

 

Looking at the total lengths we have a variation of 5mm or 360mm in real life, again the Zvezda having the largest variation.

If all the dimensions were just 1mm out or less I could pass it by and not worry too much but there is so much going on here it is hard to ingnore.

 

One other aspect I checked was the profile of the Wolfpack resin replacement. The Italeri engine mount point is too square and I think Wolfpack have followed this so as their replacement will fit without too much work but again I think it is wrong, it looks too square on the upper corners, more like a Spitfire nose than a C130 engine;

 

 

 

Please someone, tell me to stop digging....🤣

 

While looking at powerplant profiles looking at the wing pic above the Zvezda looks too straight along it's length, the Wolfpack better but not brilliant and the Airfix has a more pronounced  taper to the end of the powerpack.

Well folks, I thinks I have a can of worms, think I may as well give up modelling and go fishing, worms are good for fishing🤣

 

What to?

Plough on and pretend they are identical, who would notice? Me, I know it is there and it will bug me for ever.

 

I have just ordered the Brengun C130E/H engine replacement set for the Airfix kit to see what that looks like against the others, I have a feeling it will be different again so what I need to find out are some basic measurements and shapes of the powerpack so I can compare each kits measurements against a real one. I can also decide if to buy a single brand of resin replacement and make it work or modify what I have.

What I need to find are;

1/ Distance from wing leading edge to edge of powerpack and airscrew end.

2/ Depth of engine cowling at wing leading edge from top of pack to underside of cowling behind exhaust.

3/Width of the powerpack at wing leading edge and width at end of powerpack near airscrew.

 

Armed with these dimensions I should be able to make a more informed decision of the way forward. I have both of Andy Muniandy's superb Hercules books  plus several others but none are of any help with dimensions I require so if I can't find them somewhere it will be a trip up to Cosford in the winter armed with my DeWalt builders lasers from which I should be able to ascertain dims 1 and 3.

Failing that I am going fishing...🤪

 

It will be interesting to see which kit sings and which sucks as all 3 are wildly different which is a surprise as two of them are from the same mold.

 

Thanks for looking in on this down beat post, all is not lost however as I can start building some of the internal kit, rescribe the Airfix kit😱 and look at the underwing pods on Snoopy so hopefully I will be able to keep you entertained.

 

TTFN.