Round Table Class Minesweeper HMS Sir Lancelot (1/96th scratchbuild) - FINISHED !

[Courageous]

Nice windlass work.

 

Stuart

[Dancona]

That windlass is a lovely bit of modelmaking, bravo, I bet you are glad that is done now 😁

Cheers

 

David

[theskits62]

3 hours ago, Dancona said:

I bet you are glad that is done now 😁

Most definitely !!! Still a few small bits to add but the worst is out of the way. It was made a lot easier thanks for @Iceman 29 's CAD drawings which he posted (maybe now he has almost finished his Blythe Star he can get on with some CAD for a main winch 😜)

 

 

[theskits62]

Didn't have a lot of free time this weekend but managed to add the blocks to the gallows so they are now done.

 

 

[robgizlu]

They look tremendous

Rob

[dnl42]

Truly fabulous work on this! 

The detail is quite outstanding.

[Bandsaw Steve]

This is exceptional!

Great work.

[Colin Miller]

outstanding work, 

I built a 1/32 scale Sir Galahad from a kit.

its a big monster but not as well detailed as yours

[theskits62]

Its been a couple of months since my last update, unfortunately i've been tied up with moving house and then i was in Western Australia (Perth) for 5 weeks so i've only just this weekend managed to find any time to spend on this.

 

I decided to try and tackle the railings on the wheelhouse deck, originally i thought i'd use some PE for this but then realised that the chance of these not being mangled when i attached the splinter matting would be slim and decided instead on using a solid screen that the matting could easily be fixed to with some plastic railings on the inside - the solid screen would then act as the back of the matting. Alas before reaching this decision i'd already attached the wheelhouse which made the whole thing very fiddly.

 

Anyway i fabricated some railings from evergreen, being plastic i figured these should be relatively easy to bend around the inside of the screen. Once these were on i then made the handrails and finally the matting from milliput, shaped with a wet brush and cocktail stick.

 

Next job is to finish the lifeboat then the dreaded winch !

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[robgizlu]

Nicely done

Rob

[theskits62]

 

I finally forced myself to sit down and work on the design for the etch sheet. As i spend most of my working day sat behind a PC screen the idea of doing the same in my leisure time wasn't that appealing so i think i've been putting this off for months. Also this is my first time doing anything like this so there was some trepidation happening too.

 

Anyway for those who have never done this before i've set out what i learned below - feel free to skip !

 

<waffle start>

Its recommended that when you do this type of thing you use a scaleable vector graphics (SVG) program. Basically these allow you to create an image that won't lose detail at higher resolutions. If you imagine a normal JPEG type file, it contains a pixelated version of your image so as you zoom in on a circlular shape the edges will gradually start to become grainy due to the pixels that make up the image. SVG programs work in a completely different way and store the image as a series of instructions which are rendered on your pc screen. For example if you draw a line the the program will not store the pixelated image but something like this:-

 

line x1=100 y1=200 x2=200 y2=300....

 

So the object you've drawn is described rather than rendered. In the above simple example there will also be other items (arguments) on the "line" command such as colour, thickness etc. Using an SVG program you can still use your mouse to create the shapes/lines you want but they are stored as code (XML if you want to get technical).

 

Obviously at some point in the PE process the image will have to be committed to acetate sheet for processing, the point of SVG is that this happens right at the end and is done by the company doing your PE who will have a much higher resolution setup so the limitations introduced by rendering into pixels are kept to a minimum.

 

There are quite a few SVG programs out there, Inkscape seems popular and is free to download/use but there are others. Unfortunately i had to do my design on a work PC which meant i couldn't actually install anything so i ended up using a browser based program called SVG-EDIT. The front end for this is a little basic and sometimes glitchy but it did the job and there are plenty of tutorials online if you want to get into the detail of the XML coding side of things. Initially i just used the front end but the more i did the more i found myself just writing the XML directly. This also enables you to do things that would be very hard using the front end alone. One example of this is making cogs, you could draw a polygon and then fix small triangles for the teeth to each flat surface but a simpler way is to draw a square whose diameter is the same as that of the cog you want then rotate this by 15 degrees (all done in the front end). You can then go into the code and copy the relevant section 5 times and just edit the angle of rotation to 30, 45, 60, 75 and 90. The copying the code preserves the centre of rotation and the result is a cog (ok the apex of the teeth are right angles but when they're 5mm across who cares !). You can see the angles in the rotate transform in the lines below....

 

   <rect fill="#000000" height="26.46" id="svg_352" stroke="#000000" stroke-width="0.1" transform="rotate(15 288.534 351.088)" width="26.46" x="275.31" y="337.86"/>
   <rect fill="#000000" height="26.46" id="svg_353" stroke="#000000" stroke-width="0.1" transform="rotate(30 288.534 351.088)" width="26.46" x="275.31" y="337.86"/>
   <rect fill="#000000" height="26.46" id="svg_354" stroke="#000000" stroke-width="0.1" transform="rotate(45 288.534 351.088)" width="26.46" x="275.31" y="337.86"/>
   <rect fill="#000000" height="26.46" id="svg_355" stroke="#000000" stroke-width="0.1" transform="rotate(60 288.534 351.088)" width="26.46" x="275.31" y="337.86"/>
   <rect fill="#000000" height="26.46" id="svg_356" stroke="#000000" stroke-width="0.1" transform="rotate(75 288.534 351.088)" width="26.46" x="275.31" y="337.86"/>
   <rect fill="#000000" height="26.46" id="svg_357" stroke="#000000" stroke-width="0.1" transform="rotate(90 288.534 351.088)" width="26.46" x="275.31" y="337.86"/>

 

Obviously once you've made one of these you can just copy/paste to create more in the front end.

 

When you work on your design you also have to be aware of supporting the parts with brass "sprues" and doing half etched sections to make cutting/folding the pieces easier. Red indicates a half etch from the front and cyan from the rear.  You also have to bear in mind the limitations of the PE process, on a 0.2mm brass sheet the smallest size for a solid item is 0.25mm and the smallest gap is 0.28mm.

 

Early in the process i sent a draft to 4D so i could make sure i was on the right track and i would recommend this as they found some minor issues caused by the program that i had to take account of. Hope this brief explanation is useful to someone out there.

<waffle end>

 

 

 

 

The finished design Is shown below, i had no idea it would take as long as it did (getting on for 30 hours) and i still have to get it checked by the 4D people so there may be some final tweaking before its committed to brass.

 

Its sized to A5 and i filled all available space with a lot of spares and for the future (grating, cogs and wheels for winches mainly). The propeller blades are rough and will be filed, i tried to get them drawn but after a few hours wrestling with cubic bezier functions gave up.

 

Once its back though i should be able to really get on with finishing this.

 

 

More updates when i get the PE fret back !!

Edited May 21, 2024 by theskits62

[Steve D]

If that's your first etch artwork, I'd say very well done

It takes many, many hours, the time just disappears.  What people fail to realise is that in addition so actually drawing stuff, you have to design each component in a way that will work with the limitations of the etching, and also be able to be assembled.  20+ years of doing this and I get stuff wrong on every sheet I do.  Plus, in all that time, I'm still really only confident of line and raised detail at one sheet thickness...

 

If you are using 4D, (as I do) they will help immensely, I'll leave it to them to point out the bits you need to address.

 

I like to think in terms of life gates, steps that once taken, there is no going back.  Custom etching is a modelling life-gate..

 

Cheers

 

Steve

[theskits62]

46 minutes ago, Steve D said:

It takes many, many hours, the time just disappears.  What people fail to realise is that in addition so actually drawing stuff, you have to design each component in a way that will work with the limitations of the etching, and also be able to be assembled.  20+ years of doing this and I get stuff wrong on every sheet I do.  Plus, in all that time, I'm still really only confident of line and raised detail at one sheet thickness...

 

Thanks Steve, one thing that is puzzling me on this is how to deal with folds. On things like the flag box, lifebelt racks etc i've obviously half etched on the fold lines but was not sure whether i need to adjust the size to take account of the corner. In my design where 2 panels fold at 90 degrees they are butted together and the cyan/red fold line is overlaid on the join - do you find this works or do you leave a gap and put the fold line in that ? Also how wide do you make the fold lines relative to the brass thickness ?

 

My other simpler question is should the design work on folding away from the etch recess or into it, i've assumed "away" but my designs are simple enough this time for it not to matter but it would be useful to know for the future.

 

Thanks

Brett

[Steve D]

3 minutes ago, theskits62 said:

one thing that is puzzling me on this is how to deal with folds.

The rule I use is the width of the fold line is the thickness of the sheet, the fold allowance is half the sheet thickness so if the front of a box is 20mm (outside dimension) and the sheet thickness is 0.45 mm, the inner lines of the fold would be 19.55 mm apart

 

On the face or back question for fold lines, there is no perfect answer.  In general I will fold line in red, but sometimes in cyan if I'm folding away from detail.  Depending on the part, the fold should ideally close not open if that makes sense.  Where the edge is already half etched, rivet detail sheet etc, I place a partial cut line at the top and bottom of the fold line so I know here it goes later on.  This is not always a success, but it helps.  Many times these days I feel it is better to cut than fold, half etch a ledge and solder, not fold, folding is lazy really and less controlled. 

 

Finally, these days I frequently place alignment holes (0.5 or 0.7mm dia) in parts and use wire to assist alignment, the ends can always be cut away afterwards

 

Hope that helps, any specifics you can always DM me and I will try to help

 

Good luck with it

 

Cheers

 

Steve

[theskits62]

Well i spoke to Iain at 4D and the only change that he made was to add a few more supporting tabs to the parts which i was pleased about. The PE finally arrived on my doorstep today and i am chuffed to bits with it, thanks to 4D it has come out exactly as i would have hoped, all the detail i put in has come through crisply, raised rivets, fold lines etc. This is a real breakthrough for me, it means that all those tiny parts that i just can't convincingly build from plastic or metal can now be drafted on the PC and printed. This in combination with 3D printing are an incredibly powerful set of tools (learning 3D printing/CAD will come later for me, but i'm in no doubt that this is the way to go to deal with the detail that just can't be convincingly done by hand). Anyway here are a few pictures of the finished fret.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No prizes for guessing what i'll be doing tomorrow !!

Edited June 6, 2024 by theskits62

[theskits62]

As expected I spent this afternoon working on some of the PE parts, coal scuttles, platforms for the lewis guns etc and i'll add some photos of these later. I suppose all this was working up to one of the parts that required folding/building and for some reason i decided to start with the potentially most complex one of these, the flag box.

 

Anyway i going to put it down to beginners luck but it slotted together simply without the need for any glue ! This is the relevant part of the fret

 

... and this is the parts assembled

 

 

Edited June 8, 2024 by theskits62

[robgizlu]

Sheer class Sir.......................................(6 "P"s) 

Rob

[bissyboat]

I agree to the above. ⚓👍

Edited June 10, 2024 by bissyboat

[theskits62]

2 hours ago, robgizlu said:

(6 "P"s) 

Thanks Rob, i'll be boring everyone senseless with more PE bits and pieces over the coming days. You've lost me on "6 Ps" i'm afraid but then i am relatively new to all this nautical stuff !

[ArnoldAmbrose]

2 hours ago, theskits62 said:

You've lost me on "6 Ps" i'm afraid but then i am relatively new to all this nautical stuff !

G'day, actually it's not a nautical acronym but applies to life in general  -  Prior Preparation Prevents (substitute word for urine) Poor Performance!

 

And you're not boring us with the PE, I think that flag locker is extremely good.       Regards, Jeff.

[theskits62]

I'm still enthralled with the PE sheet from 4D so have spent more time this week assembling and trying out the various parts. So far the only issue i've come across is that all my ladders are too short ! I followed the old adage to measure then measure again before i committed anything to the design but they are all wrong. I decided that the only way to really fix properly this is to do another PE sheet and whilst i was drawing this i found out my mistake with the first. When you're in one of these SVG editors you spend a lot of time zoomed in close to the parts to align things etc. I was using a ruler that was part of the design to measure the ladder lengths and in most cases i would draw a rough length and then shorten them against the ruler. The problem is that in SVG-edit when you shorten something it does it from both ends so when i took 0.5mm off one end of a rectangle it would actually take the same off the other end too which invariably i couldn't see because of the zoom.

 

Anyway the second fret was a lot quicker to design than the first and only took about 6 hours or so. Its still not finished but i'm waiting for 4D to confirm the new design will fit an A5 sheet before i add all the support tabs. Apart from the obvious ladders the sheet is full of all sorts of useful bits that can be put away for another project (cogs, wheels for winches, rivetted panels, handrails, lifebelt supports etc etc).

 

 

In addition to playing with the PE bits i've done some post shading on the hull and some pre-shading on the superstructure. The railings on the oerlikon tub and 12pdr platform are loose fitted at the moment (the ones on the searchlight platform and bridge are fixed). The great thing about the custom railings is that on things like the gun platforms you can, as long as you do your sums right, get them so that stanchions are equally spaced and start/finish at the point where the access ladders come up.

 

You will also be able to see the lifebelt racks which seem to be planked rather than solid, probably very difficult to make in plastic (for me anyway) but a piece of cake with the brass PE.

 

 

 

 

The post shading on the hull (the original grey plus a dash of buff) will be "pulled back" with some acrylic and oil washes later.

 

Edited June 15, 2024 by theskits62

[robgizlu]

Looking delicious 

6 P's = "prior planning prevents pi.. poor performance"

 

I believe it hails from the military.

Still current in the medical world 

 

Rob

[Jeff.M]

46 minutes ago, robgizlu said:

 

6 P's = "prior planning prevents pi.. poor performance"

 

I believe it hails from the military.

 

We used it in the USN (the USMC uses it as well), but not being content to leave well enough alone, we called it the 7 P’s and added the word “proper” to lead off the term. 🙂

 

Best,

 

Jeff 

[dnl42]

2 hours ago, robgizlu said:

Looking delicious 

6 P's = "prior planning prevents pi.. poor performance"

 

I believe it hails from the military.

Still current in the medical world 

 

Rob

Very much current in the engineering world.

 

On 6/6/2024 at 9:36 AM, theskits62 said:

The PE finally arrived on my doorstep today and i am chuffed to bits with it,

You should be chuffed, that looks outstanding! 

[theskits62]

The second PE fret arrived so i finally attached the steps up to the bridge, the sounder and the small mast and supports on the rear of the funnel. The Main superstructure is pretty much done now so i should be able to paint it and attach the compass deck, searchlight platform etc. and then back to the main deck and forecastle.