Battleship Bretagne - France - 3D realisation - 1:200 scale

[Iceman 29]

 

 

 

 

 

Name: Type:
BRETAGNE Battleship.

Worksite :
Started: Floated: Completed:
Brest Arsenal. August 01, 1912. September 30, 1913. 1916.

In service (MN): Withdrawn (MN):
February 10, 1916. July 03, 1940.

Features:
164,9 x 27 x 14,86 m.;
270 mm armored belt; TE: 8.90 m. for 23,550 tons, 9.80 m. for 28,500 tpc.;
23 500 t;
29,200 hp, 32,000 hp, then 43,000 hp. (replacement of
boilers and oil heating in 1935); 4 geared Parsons turbines driving 4 propellers;
Niclausse boilers;
21.4 knots;
Range of 760 miles at 20 knots, 8,400 miles at 10
knots.
1,193 h, (then 24 officers +1,109 h + 57 h. in flagship configuration);
Sister-ships: Provence, Lorraine.

Armament:
X of 340 model 1912 L/45 in 5 double turrets; XXII of 138.6 model 1910 L/55 in batteries; VI TLT 450mm submarines.
IV pieces of 47;

Battleship from the naval program of March 30, 1912.
The 3 buildings of this type BRITTANY, Provence and
Lorraine were built to replace the Carnots,
Charles-Martel and Liberty.

Started in the middle of 1912, they were only put into service
Main dates:
only after the start of the war. Bretagne is the Navy's first dreadnought national.

The sixth HMS Dreadnought, of the Marine National, was the prototype of the so-called monocaliber battleship. It had such an influence that its name became synonymous with this type of ship which was the modern battleship. It was the first large ship to be powered by steam turbines. Its appearance rendered all existing buildings obsolete, and with the approach of the First World War, it sparked a naval arms race.

Ships of the Great War - Ship Bretagne 

Summary sheet updated on 05/24/2008 - V3 Authors: Yves DUFEIL - Franck LE BEL - Marc TERRAILLON

 

February 03, 1915 January 13, 1916: in trials.
September 1915: armament and trials in Toulon.
May 07, 1916: joined the Naval Army after training.
May 10, 1916 assigned to the 1st Division of the 1st Wing, stationed at Argostoli and Corfu.
21 June 1916 – 05 December 1916: operation in Greece. 01.07.1916 included in the strength of the 1st division of the 1st
Naval Army squadron (VA Gauchet) July 01, 1918: included in the strength of the 1st division of the 1st
Naval Army Squadron (CA Exelmans, then CA German
to July 15, 1918; C in Chief of the Naval Army VA Gauchet
since December 16, 1916). June 11, 1919 mutiny.()
June 12, 1919: BRITTANY returns to Toulon for its first
major overhaul that will last two years.
1919-1921: first major overhaul, installation of the tripod. 14 June 1921 reassigned to the 1st Division of the 1st Wing.
25.07.1921 naval review in Le Havre with Provence and France, in the presence of Mr. Millerand, president of the
Republic.
1922 1925 exercises and training on the coasts of Provence and North Africa, cruises and maneuvers in
Atlantic and Channel.
1924-1925: overhaul at the Toulon arsenal. 1926 1927 normal squadron activities on the coasts of
Provence and North Africa.
1927 1928 overhaul at the Toulon arsenal.
1928 1930: joined the Escadre in Brest, then in Casablanca and was
back to Toulon. Cruises and tactical exercises on the coasts of Algeria, Provence and Corsica.
1931-1933 major overhaul in Toulon.
1934: overhaul at La Seyne.
1935: BRITTANY is assigned to the 2nd Wing.
May 17, 1935 exercises in the Bay of Douarnenez.
1936 with the 2nd line division, BRITTANY leaves for a great cruise in the central Atlantic (Dakar, Casablanca, Vigo), then on the coasts of Brittany, Cherbourg,
Dunkirk for fire schools.

1937-1938 participates in fire schools and combined exercises between the two squadrons from Cherbourg to Brest
July 3, 1939: Brittany leaves Brest with Lorraine for Toulon. The 2nd Line Division is assigned to the 2nd Squadron of the Mediterranean Fleet. BRITTANY participates in convoy escort missions between Marseille, Ajaccio, Oran and Gibraltar.
March 10, 1940 Joins occasional party, Force X, to transport gold shipment to Halifax. She does the
With all reservations because the ship enters the arsenal the next day. Probable confusion with the battleship Provence.

Ships of the Great War - Ship Bretagne 
Summary sheet updated on 05/24/2008 - V3 Authors: Yves DUFEIL - Franck LE BEL-Marc TERRAILLON

 

 

 

She was commissioned in 1915 with a  battleship Courbet type hull. She was modernized in 1919-1920 and then completely refitted at the La Seyne-sur-Mer shipyards from 1932 to 1935.

return trip escorting cargo ships carrying aircraft to Casablanca and then Toulon
April 15, 1940 sets sail from Toulon for Oran. May 3, 1940 the 2nd line division leaves Oran for
Alexandria. She participates in exercises with the English Mediterranean Fleet. May 27, 1940 in the face of the imminence of the entry into the war of Italy, Provence and BRITTANY regain Mers-El Kébir under the orders of the VAE Gensoul.

July 03, 1940 during the attack on the French fleet by Admiral Sommerville's English squadron, the battleship BRETAGNE (CV Le Pivain), which was to set sail last, while the Cd gave his orders accordingly, received at 5:59 p.m. four 380 shells. Hit by numerous projectiles, fire on board, the ship capsized to starboard at 6:09 p.m. and sank. 

1012 victims (36 officers, 151 petty officers, 825 quartermasters and sailors) are to be deplored. 

The wreckage will be dismantled on site after the war.

Bibliography:

Robert Dumas & Jean Guiglini, Les cuirassés de 23 500t, éditions la Presse, 2005.

 

 

 

 

I'm starting this project slowly because I have another ship to finish before I get 100% into it. I'm not sure what version I'll be representing yet. 1940 would be nice, but I don't have the documentation (plans) of the new superstructures. And at the same time this building has a lot of charm when it was launched.

 

The HD plans are available here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B32-8ZWvIt6UaDJzX2NlMTBSMUk/view?resourcekey=0-BTShtCxJ0d4fWHsDVQ0_mQ

 

About these plans:

Some plans do not match well with each other, especially the detail plans of the bow and the positioning of the hawks. I had to use photos to deduce the reality.

For the moment I stopped at couple 17. 

 

I'm trying to familiarize myself with the hull, because the fact that it has side cannons makes it a bit complicated. You have to take your time to avoid making too many mistakes that will be difficult to make up for later. It is also necessary to think about how to organize the number of elements and the printing, the cutting of the model into pieces easy to assemble.

 

This boat will be 83 cm long, it will be printed in 4 blocks, as for the SS Delphine (1/100). They are almost the same size.

I'll ask Jim Baumann if he had made plans of the redesign superstructures, which he could have made to make his model. But this is not the 1934 version either...

 

https://www-modelwarships-com.translate.goog/reviews/ships/fr/bretagne/700-wsw-jb/bretagne.html?_x_tr_sch=http&_x_tr_sl=nl&_x_tr_tl=fr&_x_tr_hl=fr&_x_tr_pto=wapp

 

I think that we can date the model represented here around 1929. 

 

 

In comparison, this is probably the version of the superstructures after the 4th and last redesign of 1934 (guns in grey), enlarged bridge glass, protected walkaways, etc..: 

 

 

 

The redesign program as described very well on Wiki (except for the bridge superstructures):

 

First refit

 

This first redesign, which took place only four years after the building was put into service, raises the question of its adequacy to the needs of the time.

On this occasion, the elevation of its main gun was increased from 12° to 18° to allow it to engage targets at greater range.

The four lateral 138 mm casemate guns located at the front of the ship were removed, as well as the casemates, as it was found that outside of good weather, these guns were constantly unusable due to the sea. The 75 mm anti-aircraft guns model 1897 were replaced by four guns, of the same caliber, model 1918, positioned amidships.

The foremast was replaced by a tripod mast and its main mast was reduced to allow the battleship to deploy a captive balloon for the adjustment of its artillery.

It was also installed a Vickers fire direction equipped with a rangefinder on top of the new tripod mast and two rangefinders on each side of the superstructure for the 138 mm guns. An attempt was made to install catapults for a reconnaissance aircraft on the No 2 and No 4 turrets, but they proved to be difficult to use and were removed during the second redesign.

Bretagne returned to active service, as flagship of the Mediterranean fleet, and remained in the 1st division of the 1st squadron. On 25 July 1921, she took part in the naval review in Le Havre, with her sister-ship Provence and France, in the presence of the President of the Republic at the time, Alexandre Millerand.

Back in Toulon in September of the same year, she was used as a target by Lieutenant Paul Teste for a series of dive-bombing training.

Still with the battleship France, she carried out a firing exercise on June 28th 1921, targeting the Austro-Hungarian battleship SMS Prinz Eugen south of Porquerolles island.

On 18 July 1921, the Bretagne, accompanied by the France and the Paris, began a cruise in the ports of the Bay of Biscay and the English Channel. On this occasion, the France hit a reef which was not mentioned on any map and sank, its crew being rescued by the two other ships, except for three sailors.

On June 22, 1923, the Bretagne ran aground in the Bizerte canal without damage.

The Provence replaced the Bretagne as flagship on 1st September 1923, while the battleship was preparing for its second refit.

 

Second refit

 

The battleship underwent a major modernization between 1 May 1924 and 18 September 1925.

As in the first one, the main artillery was modified to increase the elevation from 18° to 23°, which allowed it to reach a range of 23,700 meters. It also received two new rangefinders for its flak.

Part of her forward armour was removed to lighten the bow and increase her forward freeboard, while a group of coal-fired boilers was replaced by oil-fired ones and the catapults installed on the main batteries were removed.

At the end of her refit, Bretagne resumed her position as flagship of the Mediterranean fleet and will convoy Georges Leygues, Minister of the Navy, to Malta for an official visit between 27 April and 1 May 1926.

Third refit

New oil-fired boilers were installed during this modernization, which lasted from November 15, 1927 to May 12, 1928, and also saw the improvement of the fire direction and the replacement of the Vickers model by a French Saint Chamond-Granat system, as well as the replacement of all the rangefinders, except for those on each of the turrets. Two rangefinders were added to the gunnery control station, one at the top of the foremast and another at the base of the mainmast. A rangefinder is added at the weapons control station to measure the distance between the target and the sheaves. A rangefinder was placed on the No. 2 turret.

On 10 May 1930, Bretagne participated, with Provence and Paris, in a fleet review in front of Gaston Doumergue, President of the Republic, to celebrate the centenary of the conquest of Algeria by France.

 

Fourth refit

 

It began on July 1, 1932 and ended on November 12, 1934, at the La Seyne-sur-Mer shipyards and marked the end of the last coal-fired boilers on the ship, which were replaced by newer, more compact oil-fired boilers, allowing the conversion of boiler room No. 2 into an oil tank. Pearsons geared turbines are installed to replace the high pressure turbines.

The four 138 mm side guns located aft were removed, along with their casemates, while the four 75 mm anti-aircraft guns were replaced by eight guns of the same caliber, model 1922. The torpedo launchers were also removed, a new weapons control station was installed, as well as two firing directors for the flak with rangefinders.

Bretagne joined the 2nd Division of the 2nd Wing for manoeuvres in the Azores with Provence and Lorraine from 11 May 1935, before returning to her home port of Brest on 16 June of the same year.

After some additional modifications, including a replacement of its rangefinders and fire direction, the 2nd Division was transferred to the Mediterranean fleet on June 10th 1939.

 

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bretagne_(cuirassé)

 

 

Some pictures of the beginning of the 3D design. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bertie McBoatface]

That’s a lot of information but what are you actually doing? What exactly is a 3D realisation? (Use short words please, I’m old school )

[Jerry L]

I will be following this quite closely. The first image, did you down load from the French site that was later shut down? I am in the process of doing the ALGERIA drawings in 1/200 to scratch build later this year or early next year. Have always admired your work and attention to detail.

[Iceman 29]

59 minutes ago, Bertie McBoatface said:

That’s a lot of information but what are you actually doing? What exactly is a 3D realisation? (Use short words please, I’m old school )

 

It is for my part to draw and print this model with the method used for this one: 

 

 

[Iceman 29]

Many thanks, Jerry, I appreciate.

 

It will be a long way.. 

[Iceman 29]

A friend realized "Algérie" some months ago in cartoon (1:200) , a terrific job :

 

https://www-laroyale--modelisme-net.translate.goog/t26706-croiseur-de-1ere-classe-algerie?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=fr&_x_tr_pto=wapp

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Iceman 29]

The advances of the day.

 

Still many problems of correspondence between the detail plans and the general plan. Maybe different versions of the shapes in the design office.

 

My reference plan remains the view from the starboard side. 

 

In front view, we see here a shift at the level of the main deck at the top. Bad scan ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bertie McBoatface]

8 hours ago, Iceman 29 said:

It is for my part to draw and print this model with the method used for this one: 

Now I understand. Thank you. It will be interesting to see it develop.

[Iceman 29]

I made a little progress today:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Iceman 29]

I waste time with the plans which are heterogeneous, it's hell, when you superimpose them, there is no 2 identical ones... Probably plans of studies which did not succeed for some. We can see that some shapes, especially at the level of the side barrels, have been modified in order to simplify the manufacturing process, probably or for other technical reasons.  

 

I had a lot of fun with the 140/55 guns, I wanted to make them swivel in elevation, but it's impossible with the hard "braies". Well, I drew the mechanism anyway.  

I put the breakers in front of the front side barrels, there are some on the second group too. I have good pictures that give the angle of the breakers.

I started to file the parts in two folders 1915 and 1940 to segregate the two versions. You will just have to click normally to switch from one version to the other in the drawing.

These are of course not the original gun mounts. These cannons could be removed from the mountings to put them under cover and perhaps for maintenance inside the bridge.  

 

Being permanently exposed to sea water, they must have suffered from corrosion. Removing a cannon was not an easy task despite the overhead travelling crane, especially at sea with rolling, pitching and seas. Hence perhaps the decision to remove the 4 front 140 mm guns from 1922.

 

 

 

Working this morning on the "alcoves" of the 140 guns. It's full of little subtleties, I have a few to add on the turrets.

 

 

For a change, I'll draw the anchors. I took some pictures at the "Pointe de Pen-Hir" near the port of Camaret, Bretagne, France,  on the "anchor path" last March, it was not insignificant. 

 

http://baladesbretagne.canalblog.com/archives/2016/10/10/34422182.html

 

 

http://4sardines.canalblog.com/archives/2011/04/28/21004171.html

"...The first anchors came from the Toulon arsenal recovered from the warships that took part in the battle of Mers El Kébir (Algeria) on July 3, 1940: Cuirassé Bretagne, Cruisers Dunkerque, Strasbourg, Courbet..."

 

One of the anchors of the Bretagne is there, at least the same model, and another one of the Courbet, among others (they are different). I was careful to take a picture of the front and side.

 

My wife gives the scale ( 1m65 ).  

 

 

 

It's a perfect match.

 

 

 

Anchor of the Battleship Courbet:

 

[S-boat 55]

I sit and marvel at people who can do 3d modelling, well done for taking it on as a project

Edited August 7, 2022 by S-boat 55

[Chewbacca]

Having just finished a 3D printed 1/350 HMS HECLA which is only just over 1/4 the size of this model, I have to say it looks insane!  I take my hat off to you sir and will follow with interest to learn more of your your 3D printing techniques.

[Courageous]

4 hours ago, Chewbacca said:

I have to say it looks insane!

I have to agree. Looks nice and interesting and if his previous thread are anything to go by, it'll be fantastic.

 

Stuart

[Iceman 29]

Many thanks, Chewbacca, Stuart!

 

The anchor is finished. It's always better to have a plan of course. Perpective errors, parallax etc.. So many parameters on a photo that can distort a 3D drawing. 

It should look a bit like this:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here it is, the anchors in place. 

 

Modifications of the hawsepipes on the forecastle with the addition of this part which is difficult to model and to integrate.

 

Example on the Jean-Bart ( 1910 :

 

 

A few railing added. But it will be 2 rail IJN PE that will be put in place. 

 

 

 

[Micha_Pol]

French Battleship are very unique, so seing one take shape is great. Read about it in the book "French Battleships of WWI" by Jordan/Caresse.

[Iceman 29]

Thanks Micha, I will try to find this book very complete. 

[Iceman 29]

A friend of mine gave me the plans of the turrets.

 

Even with these plans, I must say that it was not easy to draw it, the design is more complex than it seems. 

 

From the cylindrical turrets of the pre-dreadnought to these ones, there is a world. 

 

The design office had fun!  

 

Some pictures of the turrets sketches, we are still far from the final printable version...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Iceman 29]

There is still some detailing to be done, but also the internal system of the turret in order to be able to glue the two guns easily with their "braie" (I don't know the term in English). 

 

They will not be adjustable in elevation. But it's possible by modifying the design and printing guns with a higher elevation, and also the floor supporting the gun mount.

 

For the moment I've drawn the turret rangefinder, refining the bottom of the turret in shape. The fixing system to the barbette is drawn, the turret will be able to turn. 

 

The gun braies are in 1915 version for the moment. They have a different shape later, probably during a redesign when the maximum elevation of the guns was increased for more range.

 

The clearances are increased on the parts that fit, this is due to the fact that the resin 3D printers make the parts a little larger than the design, about 0.3 mm for the Anycubic LCD printers, or on a cylinder 0.6 mm, so it is necessary to take this into account when designing. 

For the Photon Ultra which does not use a screen, it is much less. I will print a prototype with this one to validate the design of these parts.

 

 

 

 

We can see that the guns of the B turret graze the rangefinder of the A turret in the 0° position. The -5° could only be reached in the lateral position of the turret, in my humble opinion.

 

 

Later version of gun braies, probably after 1919 (The elevation of the main artillery was increased from 12° to 18°).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Iceman 29]

There are still a few details to be added on the turrets, railings, 47 mm guns, ladders to access the turret hatch, plus other small things.

 

I was able to draw some details today. In particular the sealing system at the barbette level, these little turnbuckles that you can see holding the braie in place.

 

I also put the two articulated grips that block the turret at sea in rotation at the sea station. It took me a while to figure out what these arms were for, but a rare photo where they are in place confirmed my hypothesis.  They are not on the class plans.

 

 

 

The hatches to the right and left of the cannons, are for the two sight lines.

The small hatch between the guns is for lateral aiming.

 

 

 

 

 

[Iceman 29]

Drawing of the ladder, displacement of the turret hatch towards the back, it is not placed as on the plan, photos attest it.

 

Note that the roof of the turret is not really armored (see plan), only the sides and those of the barbette are (around 240 mm).

 

Battleship Lorraine:

 

 

 

 

[Brandy]

More beautiful detective and design work.

 

Ian

[Chewbacca]

Your skills continue to amaze/inspire me.

 

On 09/08/2022 at 14:39, Iceman 29 said:

The clearances are increased on the parts that fit, this is due to the fact that the resin 3D printers make the parts a little larger than the design, about 0.3 mm for the Anycubic LCD printers, or on a cylinder 0.6 mm, so it is necessary to take this into account when designing. 

For the Photon Ultra which does not use a screen, it is much less. I will print a prototype with this one to validate the design of these parts.

 

That's really interesting.  I must confess I haven't noticed any oversize printing on an Elegoo Mars.  I will have to get the micrometer out and measure some of the parts. 

[Iceman 29]

This is a "Normal" phenomenon, because during the diffusion of UVs through the pixels of the LCD screen, the UVs diffuse a little at the periphery in the resin. This makes the part a bit oversized.

For a simple part no problem. But for a part that has to be assembled to another one, it's a problem, on both parts

Drawing of the capstan and windlass PS and SB, the third one is a bit different.

 

The steering wheel is used for the brake.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The 3 identical squares in the case on top of the windlass are used to engage it with a crank. It allows to anchor "on the brake", windlass engine out of gear. 

 

Here on the plan the position of the crank is quite dangerous, we can suppose that it was extended in reality to avoid that the hands touch the anchor chain. Another era.

 

 

 

 

Anchoring to the brake:

Traditionally the number of shackles ( One link: 15 fathoms or 27.50 m) put in the water is announced to the bridge by ringing the bell  (for sounding shackles), which is at the forecastle usually, 4 shackles, 4 rings of the bell etc. On this bulk carrier in the video, it is by hand signals.  Now there are UHF walkie-talkies, but given the noise when anchoring the bell is still the most effective, even 200 meters back at the bridge we hear it clearly.

 

Then the anchor black ball is hoisted indicating to the other ships that we are at anchor. 2 white lights at 360° also indicate it at night, at the front and at the back.

 

 

 

[Iceman 29]

The foredeck is slowly being furnished, 350 mm mooring bitts, roller fairleads, lazarette hatch that can be covered by a canvas shelter.

 

I reduced the size of the turret hatch, I had missed the plan, I'll see if I make an open one, it could be nice. 

 

There are two hatches one on top of the other, a very thin one that covers the armored one. This last one is equipped with a lever arm to open it because of its weight. The first one can only be closed from the outside, it protects the armored one from rain and sea spray, I think.

 

 

 

 

 

This picture had me on the trail. You can see the thickness of the turret roof armor ( in 3 sheets ), probably 60 mm. Compared to the 210 of the sides. This roof is removable, it allows to replace the guns. 

 

 

Rear turret, guns dismantled, we can see the fixing screws of the roof which was temporarily put back in place.

 

(Lorraine)

 

 

[Dmitriy1967]

After looking at the photos of the guns, where there is a man in a raincoat, it seemed to me that on your computer model the rings on the barrel section are too large.

Maybe I'm wrong.