Bedding decals in Klear/ Future or equivalent.

[TonyOD]

On 7/28/2018 at 1:33 PM, theplasticsurgeon said:

I panic-bought Klear at the end of its sales, and have never used anything else. Probably have a lifetime's supply.

Me too, got gallons of the stuff. Well, not literally, but enough to keep me going.

 

About to give this method a spin...

[stevehnz]

Good man Tony, hopefully you won't be disappointed. The thing I like is, depending one the decals, you get some wriggle room with it. The last job I did, some D-day stripes under the wing of a Mustang, Propagteam decals, one went on  a treat, the other not so, very thin & not happy to be moved. I should have cut the bit in front of the wheel well off & done it as a separate piece, but was lulled into a false sense of security, but that was down to the decals & me rather than the KOE method.

Steve.

[TonyOD]

5 hours ago, stevehnz said:

Good man Tony, hopefully you won't be disappointed.

I'm about halfway through the decalling and it's been a revelation! Superb result, not even the slightest hint of carrier film visible, beds down into panel lines beautifully, and surprisingly forgiving in execution. They really look like they've been painted on.

[Back in the Saddle]

I’ll be trying this technique on my Spitfire Mk.Ia - the decal stage is beckoning and I’m always keen to try something new.👍

[Faraway]

8 hours ago, Back in the Saddle said:

I’ll be trying this technique on my Spitfire Mk.Ia - the decal stage is beckoning and I’m always keen to try something new.👍

I’d like to hear what your results are, I’ve only ever ‘varnished’ the whole model prior to decals.

Jon

[Back in the Saddle]

46 minutes ago, Faraway said:

I’d like to hear what your results are, I’ve only ever ‘varnished’ the whole model prior to decals.

Hi Jon.

 

I should be trying this later in the week, so I’ll post something on here to show you once they’re done.👍

[Back in the Saddle]

I made a start on this tonight, but I have one very important question for @stevehnz (or anybody else)... Is this the right product?!😬

 

 

The reason I ask is simple. I have painted it onto the upper surfaces, but now it has dried it does not look very glossy:

 

 

If it's wrong, I will gloss coat the model and revert to my traditional methods - I don't want to ruin the model at this late stage...!😆

[Faraway]

4 minutes ago, Back in the Saddle said:

 

The reason I ask is simple. I have painted it onto the upper surfaces, but now it has dried it does not look very glossy:

I use something similar, I’ll post photo tomorrow. I have found that I have to use 2 or 3 coats over sprayed Tamiya acrylic to get a really good shine, they seem to dry very rough.

Jon

[stevehnz]

7 hours ago, Back in the Saddle said:

but I have one very important question for @stevehnz (or anybody else)...

It does look like what I've seen mentioned, there were differences in naming all over the world & also equivalent products, hopefully someone else from the UK can confirm that. I've got several bottle of original Klear, carefully hidden from herself.

Steve.

[malpaso]

Yes, i have real (old) Klear which I brush on, at least two coats on Tam matt before it starts to look "A bit" glossy, but hardly car-shiny until More coats.  Others spray and seem to get shiny after a couple of coats; I can't get on with spraying it for some reason, 1 can't get the technique and 2 worry about humming up the internals!

 

On the other hand I have sometimes just applied decals directly into a puddle of Klear on the dreaded Humbrol Matt and they bedded down perfectly with no silvering - which is the method @stevehnz was proposing in the OP.

[Ray_W]

Steve's original post describing decalling in Future really does eliminate the need for a total gloss coat always remembering any gloss coat is only as good as the base it was put over. I still lightly sand the colour coats with a worn clean Tamiya 3000 sanding sponge before I gloss coat to ensure a smooth surface. I am sure Steve's technique would result in perfect decals without the need for a special gloss coat. However, the gloss coat purpose, for me, is more for protection and being able to use the oil or enamel post effects that I do. And, of course, it does assist with decals. I use a thin lacquer gloss coat (Gunze GX-100) because I found it's performance more predictable than Future when airbrushing. Never a super high gloss, but always smooth.

 

Once I get to the decals, the Future method Steve's OP describes is brilliant. It is my go to method for stencilling. They bed gorgeously. I just used it again (the roundels are painted). This is taken 10 minutes after finishing with no top coats. My ratio is 7 drops of original Future to 4 drops water.  I described the technique last night, again, as the best modelling technique I have learnt in the past two years.

 

 

 

For others new to the Future/Pledge game a good place to start with a discussion of substitutes is Swanny's article:

 

http://www.swannysmodels.com/TheCompleteFuture.html

 

Also, Hyperscale has a recent thread, now pinned, on the matter (apologies in advance for the Tapatalk) 

 

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/hyperscale/where-can-i-find-future-floor-polish-are-they-maki-t502532.html

 

Ray

 

 

 

 

 

[TonyOD]

1 minute ago, Ray_W said:

the best modelling technique I have learnt in the past two years.

+1 for that.

[Faraway]

I've used this one, it usually takes couple of coats but the results are ok.

I've never sprayed it, only brush applied.

 

I've only just got this one, so I have yet to try it.

I might have a play today.

If anyone can add any advice ab out this, it'd be most welcome.

Jon

[Back in the Saddle]

Thanks for all the advice.👍

 

I've tried both methods over the past couple of nights - using KOE and using micro set/sol.

 

Klear certainly grabs the decals well, but I found it a bit messy. Possibly my fault - I used it very liberally!

Micro set/sol also gave me very similar results. I found this combination had more grab than KOE and was less messy.

 

Here's a roundel bedded down using KOE:

 

 

As you can see, it has conformed well to the sunken panel lines. You can also see the mess I made with it!

 

Once everything has dried overnight, I will gently wash the model to remove the residue and matt coat it to seal the decals. Once weathered, I suspect it will look acceptable.

[Faraway]

The real test is when applying letter or number decals, which have a lot of carrier film between them, like the letters on the Spitfire fuselage. If the paint surface is grainy, as it can be when spraying Matt paint, then there is a lot of silvering,. That’s when Klear or equivalent works by smoothing the surface and stopping the silvering. At least, it has done that for me. 

[stevehnz]

11 hours ago, Back in the Saddle said:

Klear certainly grabs the decals well, but I found it a bit messy. Possibly my fault - I used it very liberally!

Micro set/sol also gave me very similar results. I found this combination had more grab than KOE and was less messy.

 

Here's a roundel bedded down using KOE:

I've never had anything like that amount of residue so suspect that you are over using it or maybe that & a combination of too much full strength Klear. Putting it onto a previously Kleared surface & using a dilute bedding puddle, I soak up any great amount of excess once I've positioned the decal with the corner of a paper towel or similar & then do the final roll out of the excess from underneath with a cotton bud & pretty leave it too dry then, in a way less is more though if I have to try to reposition a decal it'll get a good old splashing with teasing up the edge, a panel line is a good starting point for that, & working the Klear under the decal until I'm happy with it's new position then repeat the steps I mentioned earlier, soak up excess, roll out etc. I don't normally get anything much in the way of a tide mark like that, I think because the Klear in the dilute bedding solution absorbs into the Klear I glossed with prior to decalling.

Steve.

[Back in the Saddle]

Thanks Steve, I wasn’t being mean when I applied it...😂

I think that may be the issue!

[Back in the Saddle]

Here's how the model currently looks. I deliberately choose the largest decals this time, the squadron markings on both sides, as suggested by @Faraway:

 

 

 

There is a bit of silvering, which is more prominent where smaller decals have been applied over the larger ones. I'm hoping that weathering and a matt coat will hide this to some extent...

[Faraway]

@Back in the Saddlethe first here is my attempt at a 1/48 Airfix Hurricane, not only did the decals not really work, but I had a complete nightmare with other parts.

Now, I didn't coat the whole aircraft with QUICK SHINE and as you can see. It was a disaster.

So, I went and got another kit. (I know, more money than sense.)The first one is now my test bed for different techniques, weathering etc.

On the second build, I sprayed the aircraft as before with Tamiya matt colours. And then I gave it THREE coats of QUICK SHINE and once completely dry I then applied the decals, gave them a coat of Micro Set/Sol, to bed them in.

And as you can see, a huge difference. After the decals were applied, I gave the whole plane a coat of Satin Varnish (this aircraft was flown by a Polish airman and theses chaps used to have their aircraft given a coat of gloss varnish, supposedly to improve airspeed )

Jon.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Faraway
text

[Back in the Saddle]

Hi Jon.

 

That second picture certainly shows how decals should look - that’s a great finish! Is QUICK SHINE the same as Klear?
 

Once you’d applied those three coats, did you use any more to apply the decals or just the micro set/sol?

[Faraway]

Hi Matt.

I am led to believe that Quick Shine is the same sort of thing as the famed Klear.

Once the Tamiya paint is good and dry, then I applied the coats of QS, allowing each coat to dry completely before the next. Sometimes it only requires two coats, seems to depend on how much paint I apply. I go by how glossy the finish is.
 

I then apply the decals and then brush on Micro Sol, sometimes I carefully press the decal into the detail with a cotton bud, if it needs it. Great care needed as the decals have then become VERY delicate.
I hope this helps, at the end of the day, it’s down to experiment. 
Regards 

Jon

[Back in the Saddle]

So you allow the QS coats to dry completely, then apply the decals.👍

 

What liquid do you use at the application stage? I’m guessing micro set at this point, followed by sol once they are in place?

 

Thanks for your help - I’m trying to replicate your finishing!

[Troy Smith]

Just now, Back in the Saddle said:

What liquid do you use at the application stage?

diluted KOE,  a small amount where the decal will go,  position, wick off excess, press down with dry cloth.  when dry, matt varnish. 

(that is what this thread describes)

The method described by @Faraway is the standard microscale system. Gloss, then set and sol solutions.

 

Some decals are quite thick, for this try hot water, as this makes them flexible.

 

20 hours ago, Back in the Saddle said:

 

Here's a roundel bedded down using KOE:

 

 

As you can see, it has conformed well to the sunken panel lines. You can also see the mess I made with it!

one point.

The RAF did not apply markings onto control surfaces, ( exceptions to this are very very rare) so that roundel is too far outboard.

Page 7 of the monograph below has the factory guide for camo and roundel position

https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Modeling-References/Camoflage-Markings/01-Supermarine-Spitfire

 

[Back in the Saddle]

15 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

The RAF did not apply markings onto control surfaces, ( exceptions to this are very very rare) so that roundel is too far outboard.

Thanks Troy - great tip. I'll bear that in mind on future models👍.

 

I think they are too far rearwards too... Ironically, for the first time ever they are welded into place, so I will have to live with them like this.

 

I think I will follow Jon's example in the future and have a dedicated model to test new techniques! I will have another go tonight with the fin flashes.

[Nick Belbin]

It would help enormously if you cut away all the excess carrier in, around and between the bits you need, even if it means separating the letters, roundels etc. That would make it a bit more of a fiddle though!
 

Nick