F-84F and RF-84F with David stars?

[Jure Miljevic]

Hi!

Anniversary of Operation Musketeer/Mousquetaire/Kadesh/Suez war is approaching and I have been thinking about building one of more colourful aircraft taking part for a start. French F-84Fs and RF-84Fs, with various stripes and squadron badges, fit this description nicely. From gathered material I figured out about the identification stripes (single yellow stripe with black outline until the end of October, yellow-black stripes from 1st November on) and from available articles and books I learned about not so uniformed reality of improvised use of yellow paint on Cyprus, planes wearing both types of stripes and white, dark gray and possibly even blue stripes.

Still, what bothers me the most are supposed Israeli markings on French fighter-bombers and reconnaissance planes, based in Israel. Israeli markings had been mentioned in several publications and there are plenty of colour profiles of both Thunderstreaks and Thunderflashes with stars of David, but I have not seen a single photo of the actual aircraft with such markings. In fact, all the photos of French planes in Israel bases show them marked with standard French cocarde. Any thoughts? Cheers

Jure

[scotthldr]

[gregair]

Hi Jure,

I have a smallish colour photo showing two F-84's with Israeli Star of David markings, 1-NX with red tail stripes and the other has black or green tail stripes, unfortunately I cannot post the pic at the moment but here is a link to the same photo.

http://idfrss.deviantart.com/art/F-84F-from-France-to-Israel-595385690

Ha... ok same pic as Scott

[exdraken]

Suposedly some then still French Mysteres were also operated out of Israel by French pilots ...

thanks for the above photo! It's a first for me!

[Jure Miljevic]

Hi!

Exdraken, Mysteres from EC 3/2 Alsase and EC 1/2 Cigognes operated from Israel as a protection against potential Egypt air force attacks with Il-28 bombers. Photos of planes from both units, taken after their return to France, show Mysteres with yellow and black stripes and French cocardes. Go figure ...

Scott and Gregair, thank you very much for the photo, that is just what I needed. Do you perhaps also have an information about 1-NX serial? Tom Cooper on ACIG gives it as 52-9029 on colour profile, but in its caption it reads as 52-9109. Cheers

Jure

[exdraken]

Thanks! Mysteres are quite off-topic,sorry! But they'd hardly return to France with Stars of David, no?

[scotthldr]

Do you perhaps also have an information about 1-NX serial? Tom Cooper on ACIG gives it as 52-9029 on colour profile, but in its caption it reads as 52-9109. Cheers

Joe Baugher's website has neither 52-9029 or 52-9109 listed ????

[Paul Bradley]

Brian Cull's Wings over Suez (HIGHLY recommended) states 1-NK to be 52-8914 and has a photo of said a/c where the serial is partly visible.

[Jure Miljevic]

Hi, Paul, Scott and Exdraken

Scott, Joe Baugher does not list those two serials specifically, but I understand those planes were part of General Motors produced F-84F-51-GK series. On the other hand, 1-NK 52-8914 is listed there as one of 1/1 Corse aircraft. Does the photo in Wings over Suez also shows a star of David, Paul?

I am still undecided about specific Thunderstreak I am going to build and I have given myself a deadline until midnight to make up my mind. I googled the web for Wings over Suez book and I found some reasonably priced used ones from seller in USA. Still, I will pass this time as it would take some three to four weeks for the book to arrive and by then my enthusiasm for building French/Israeli F-84F, pretty high right now, may drop, crash and burn and I will end up with another half-baked kit, collecting dust on a shelf.

In my search I came across a series of articles in French magazine Le fana de l'aviation, from 3 to 6 of year 2001. Apart from the colour photo of 1-NX, another colour photo of either 1-NI or 1-NL is published in one of these magazines. And Exdraken, you may find these articles interesting, as they include several photos and colour profiles of French Mysteres in Israeli markings. Cheers

Jure

[ReccePhreak]

Too bad the French didn't put Israeli roundels on their RF-84Fs, like they did with their F-84Fs.

That would give me another cool recce model to do.

 

Larry

[Paul Bradley]

On ‎9‎/‎13‎/‎2016 at 8:20 AM, Jure Miljevic said:

Hi, Paul, Scott and Exdraken

Scott, Joe Baugher does not list those two serials specifically, but I understand those planes were part of General Motors produced F-84F-51-GK series. On the other hand, 1-NK 52-8914 is listed there as one of 1/1 Corse aircraft. Does the photo in Wings over Suez also shows a star of David, Paul?

 

 

HI Jure,

 

There are two photos of 1-NK - a colour one with Star of David markings on the back cover, and a b+w one inside where the Star of David and Suez Stripes have been removed but the French roundel has yet to be replaced. It is on the b+w one that the serial is clearly visible.

[Jure Miljevic]

Hi!

Thank you very much Paul, that settles it, 1-NK 52-8914 it is. Just one more question about the stripes: are these of early yellow band with thin black outline type or are they of later yellow-black-yellow-black-yellow variety?

I have been working on Italeri kit for the weekend and I think I can beat it into something more or less presentable by early October. Airfix Spitfire 22 in Egyptian markings is going to be next and with a bit of luck maybe I can squeeze in Italeri Whirlwind by the 5th November.

Larry, RF-84F with Israeli markings would appeal to me, too, but that type operated from Akrotiri on Cyprus and needed no false markings. Oddly enough, I vaguely remember seeing a colour profile of RF-84F with stars of David, but I cannot remember where. Cheers

Jure

[Antoine]

Here's Georges Perseval account of Suez.

He say that when he arrived at Lod, the Star of Israël had replaced the Cocarde Tricolore before he left the cockpit!

 

And in case you're not already set on a given aircraft, why not consider Cne Pichoff's aircraft, as he probably get the last French air victory.

Here's the story, but no doubt that you'll need to dig a bit more.

 

[Jure Miljevic]

Hi Antoine

I have already found these webpages, but thanks anyway. I found Georges Perseval's account very interesting (although it took me some time to read it, my French is unfortunately quite rusty) and I found especially interesting information about configuration for Luxor raid (450 gallons tanks, no rockets, JATO bottles). I had already started looking for larger drop tanks and JATO bottles and figuring out, how to scratch build them if necessary, when I read that the night before the raid, stars of David had been replaced with cocardes once again. What a pity!

Capitaine Pichoff's Thunderstreak would be very interesting, too, however I agree with you that more research is needed. The nearest of three F-84Fs in the background of the photo is marked 3-HX, which is very good starting point. Again, these Navarre fighters operated from Akrotiri and flew in regular French markings throughout the campaign. However, should more information about capitaine Pichoff's F-84F become available, his fighter is certainly next on my list of Thunderstreak models.

Speaking of F-84F models, is there perhaps a new kit in 1/72 on the market yet? If not, I would settle for the old Italeri, combined with a good update set, too. Any suggestions? Cheers

Jure

[Paul Bradley]

10 hours ago, Jure Miljevic said:

Thank you very much Paul, that settles it, 1-NK 52-8914 it is. Just one more question about the stripes: are these of early yellow band with thin black outline type or are they of later yellow-black-yellow-black-yellow variety?

 

 

Yellow band with thin black outline.

[Jure Miljevic]

Excellent! Thanks a lot, Paul. Cheers

Jure

P.S.: Is the second photo you mentioned the one on the link below?

http://www.frenchwings.net/combat/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=2057

Edited September 20, 2016 by Jure Miljevic

[Paul Bradley]

Not the same photo, but the same a/c in the same condition.

[Jure Miljevic]

Thanks. Happy modelling to you, too. Cheers

Jure

[Paul Bradley]

Nema na čemu!

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

My apologies in resurrecting this thread, any new info or photo’s in the last 5.5 years ? 

[Jure Miljevic]

Not to my knowledge, unfortunately. Cheers

Jure

[modelldoc]

Only my model, build after these information:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/21603181@N08/6314828816/in/photolist-xbKoX4-aC29AU

 

modelldoc

[RidgeRunner]

Call me old fashioned but to me they looked just right in French cocardes