SPITFIRE Mk III

[bentwaters81tfw]

Okay folks. I'm after the dirt on Spitfire Mk III N3297, which was a development aircraft converted from a Mk1.

I understand there are two colour profiles in Spitfire - The History, by Morgan and Shacklady. Yellow over black and white, and DE/DG over yellow.

Does anyone have a copy that they could scan the pictures please? I understand it had clipped wings, retractable tailwheel and fully enclosed mainwheels when retracted. I have seen a drawing with a full length bubble type canopy extending to the read decking.

Any pictures, drawings or leads would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Frank

[Test Graham]

The Mk.III also had a longer nose, to take the longer gearbox on the Merlin XX, and the raked undercarriage adopted on the Mk.Vc and later variants.

It flew with the shorter wing (much shorter than the normal clipped) but this was too penalising, and with the standard wing.

N3297 may have later had a modified canopy, but not as a Mk.III.

Edited November 15, 2010 by Graham Boak

[bentwaters81tfw]

The Mk.III also had a longer nose, to take the longer gearbox on the Merlin XX, and the raked undercarriage adopted on the Mk.Vc and later variants.

It flew with the shorter wing (much shorter than the normal clipped) but this was too penalising, and with the standard wing.

N3297 may have later had a modified canopy, but not as a Mk.III.

Thanks Graham,

I had that information. I also have this.

[grahamf]

I would ditch that drawing Frank! I have seen pictures of the MK3 in the two books I have and that aint it!

I have spitfire the History and The spitfire story by Alfred Price.

The wings were shortened but not in the later clipped wing fashion and in one of the pictures the front cockpit screen is very strange from the side where the bottom of the side panels continue along the fuselage in the same plane as the canopy bottom rail. This would make the front screen very wide at the bottom, but this didn't last long. It had a retractable tail wheel and was later converted to be the prototype for the Merlin 60 series spits and had the later extended nose of these later versions.

graham

[bentwaters81tfw]

I'm wondering whether to model it in it's original Mk 1 form, but it was the June 1940 period I was after. It was put up against the Bf 109E-3 AE479 in comparative trials. It does seem quite a conversion job.

There's a common theme between them, and Bf 110E HK846, Beaufighter Mk 1s X7700/7704 and S6Bs S1595/6

[Max Headroom]

AFAIK it was built as a mk.III and not modded. It had the longer nose of the two stage Merlin variants, but the panel lines by the firewall resembled the Griffon types.

Also it was unarmed and as built had a unique windscreen shape, because when seen sideways on the bottom was a straight line parrallel with the datum line. If you see a picture it will be self evident.

Trevor

p.s. where's Spence?

[bentwaters81tfw]

AFAIK it was built as a mk.III and not modded. It had the longer nose of the two stage Merlin variants, but the panel lines by the firewall resembled the Griffon types.

Also it was unarmed and as built had a unique windscreen shape, because when seen sideways on the bottom was a straight line parrallel with the datum line. If you see a picture it will be self evident.

Trevor

p.s. where's Spence?

It's listed as a Mk 1 in batch no N3264 to N3297. It was virtually a scratch built conversion. Lengthened to take the Mk XX and span reduced to 30' 6".

Allegedly Dowding didn't like the clipped wing; the area was reduced too. It went back to the normal wing later. It was not a C type wing, but a hybrid. It was a test bed for the Merlin XX, 45, 60 and 61.

Edited November 15, 2010 by bentwaters81tfw

[gingerbob]

OK, let's clear some things up here.

N3297 was ordered in a batch of Mk.Is, but it was offset from that to be built as the Mk.III prototype. It was not "converted". I believe it was fully flush-riveted, too. The cowl was 4" longer (one document says 3.99! Close enough for me.) Longer still once the Merlin 60, and within a month Merlin 61, were fitted. The angled firewall was, I think, to get a little bit more fuel in the upper tank.

The "flat-bottom sides" windscreen was its original one, an attempt at streamlining and (I think) including armour glass. Soon replaced by what became the standard windscreen nearly from then on. First flew with standard DH (constant speed, I assume) prop, but tried various and soon had the Rotol with long spinner that showed up on Vs later in '41.

That 'yellow on top' profile has nothing to do with reality, as far as I've been able to tell. Yellow bottom yes, eventually, though when first built it had the standard (then) black/white (I think with silver fuselage underside, if I remember right).

N3297 did not have the revised chassis geometry, or the 'c' wing- both were features of the second (yes, there were two) Mk.III, W3237. I'm not sure whether it was armed, but the wing was for standard 'a' armament.

When the shortened wing was replaced by a standard-span wing, the first wing was remanufactured and used on the first pressure (Mk.VI) prototype- with extended tips!

The oil cooler was the deeper "circle front" type that became standard for the Mk.V. The radiator was quite different, being deeper and having a boundary-layer splitter. My impression is that they did quite a bit of development work on the radiator housing- apparently without full success since it never showed up on production. That's the aspect I've had the most trouble pinning down for an intended conversion.

Where did that "sport model canopy" drawing come from? I've never seen it before, and it looks likely to be a doctored drawing- but if it is authentic I'm VERY interested!

bob

Edited November 17, 2010 by gingerbob

[bentwaters81tfw]

BUMP!

Still hoping for a picture or a scan.........anyone?

Thanks

Frank

[Nick Belbin]

I think you'll find Vasko Barbic's interpretation somewhere on LSP from memory. Can only recall one image which, again, I think, is all over yellow – certainly upper sides.

Nick

[bentwaters81tfw]

Thanks Nick. I have e-mailed Mr Barbic. I'll see what happens next.

Frank

Edit: Damn, the e-mail address shown on LSP bounced. Back to square one!

Edited November 24, 2010 by bentwaters81tfw

[Julien]

BUMP!

Still hoping for a picture or a scan.........anyone?

Thanks

Frank

Frank,

I have the Morgan book if you want to borrow it just give me a shout.

Julien

[bentwaters81tfw]

Thanks, Julien.

My next step would have been the Library.

When is a good time??

Frank

[Troy Smith]

From 'The Spitfire Story' Revised second edition, posted here under 'fair use'

to save scrolling up, here's Bob's comments

OK, let's clear some things up here.

N3297 was ordered in a batch of Mk.Is, but it was offset from that to be built as the Mk.III prototype. It was not "converted". I believe it was fully flush-riveted, too. The cowl was 4" longer (one document says 3.99! Close enough for me.) Longer still once the Merlin 60, and within a month Merlin 61, were fitted. The angled firewall was, I think, to get a little bit more fuel in the upper tank.

The "flat-bottom sides" windscreen was its original one, an attempt at streamlining and (I think) including armour glass. Soon replaced by what became the standard windscreen nearly from then on. First flew with standard DH (constant speed, I assume) prop, but tried various and soon had the Rotol with long spinner that showed up on Vs later in '41.

That 'yellow on top' profile has nothing to do with reality, as far as I've been able to tell. Yellow bottom yes, eventually, though when first built it had the standard (then) black/white (I think with silver fuselage underside, if I remember right).

N3297 did not have the revised chassis geometry, or the 'c' wing- both were features of the second (yes, there were two) Mk.III, W3237. I'm not sure whether it was armed, but the wing was for standard 'a' armament.

When the shortened wing was replaced by a standard-span wing, the first wing was remanufactured and used on the first pressure (Mk.VI) prototype- with extended tips!

The oil cooler was the deeper "circle front" type that became standard for the Mk.V. The radiator was quite different, being deeper and having a boundary-layer splitter. My impression is that they did quite a bit of development work on the radiator housing- apparently without full success since it never showed up on production. That's the aspect I've had the most trouble pinning down for an intended conversion.

HTH

T

Edited June 28, 2011 by Troy Smith

[bentwaters81tfw]

Thanks Troy.

I guess that just about gives me enough to go on. Strange there are no roundels on the wings, and no fin flashes on the early configuration. It does confirm the Black/White/Alu undersides though.

I think the 1/8" difference in cowling lengths at 1/32 scale can safely be ignored. Very odd wing tips with the further reduced span though!

Edited November 24, 2010 by bentwaters81tfw

[Test Graham]

If you mean underneath the wings, that probably dates the photograph to the period (one of the periods?) where such were not carried. That probably predates the fin flash too. The involved series of changes to such matters are described in the old Decimus series of RAF Camouflage and Markings.

Edited November 24, 2010 by Graham Boak

[bentwaters81tfw]

If you mean underneath the wings, that probably dates the photograph to the period (one of the periods?) where such were not carried. That probably predates the fin flash too. The involved series of changes to such matters are described in the old Decimus series of RAF Camouflage and Markings.

One wonders about the upper wings though. The Bf 109E-3 tested against it had yellow/blue/white/red roundels on the upperwing, same on the fuselage and r/w/b/ underneath.

[Test Graham]

That is not a standard combination at any time. It is quite understandable that the 109 would require particularly distinctive markings to ensure its survival in British airspace.

It is also possible (if perhaps less likely) that the Mk.III was not updated with every change in regulation.

[bentwaters81tfw]

That is not a standard combination at any time. It is quite understandable that the 109 would require particularly distinctive markings to ensure its survival in British airspace.

It is also possible (if perhaps less likely) that the Mk.III was not updated with every change in regulation.

The 109 initially was flown on RLM 70/71 with yellow underside and RLM65 control surfaces, complete with unit badges and staffel nr.

It then went DE/DG/yellow. Oh what fun this research is!!!

Even better on the Bf 110E that was captured in Egypt. That went Norway, France, Italy, Iraq before he flew it, and picked up paint jobs on the way. It never came here, but crashed in Sudan.

[Troy Smith]

If you mean underneath the wings, that probably dates the photograph to the period (one of the periods?) where such were not carried. That probably predates the fin flash too. The involved series of changes to such matters are described in the old Decimus series of RAF Camouflage and Markings.

Fin flashes and yellow outer ring on fuselage roundel introduced in May 1940.

Underwing roundels introduced on planes in the UK in after 11 August 1940. (planes flying over France had them earlier)

One wonders about the upper wings though.

There are standard Spitfire upper wing B type roundels(56") just visible on the later photo, the red centre is quite visible on the port wing, judging by the darker appearance of the red and the hard to see yellow ring on the fuselage and 'black' undersides (note the reduction in size indicating repainting, both being 35" diameter) I presume this is taken on orthochromatic film.

(makes yellow appear black for any casual readers, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthochromatic, in light mixing yellow is a of red and green light)

HTH

T

[Test Graham]

That is not a standard combination at any time.

Not strictly true, as 4-colour roundels on the fuselage and wing uppersurfaces, with 3-colour underwing, were on 19 Sq's Spitfires when first on public view. However, this combination was gone by May 1939, which long predates the arrival of the 109 in this country. Underwing roundels disappeared with the introduction of the black/white undersides, being no longer necessary as a means of identification. This need seems to have been simply overlooked at the time of the introduction of Sky undersurfaces in June 1940, leading to their belated reintroduction in August.

Given the quoted maiden flight in March 1940, it is carrying the appropriate markings for the time.

[Nick Belbin]

Shoot me down, but that looks like a shadow from the blister on the outer gun panel to me . . .

Nick

Reason for edit: Reading too much into a photograph after too much beer!!

Edited November 25, 2010 by Nick Belbin

[stevehnz]

Consider yourself shot. No blister, thus no shadow. I'm with Troy on this. I reckon too that it is just possible to see the outline of the blue outer portion on the port wing too, & that small dark horizontal mark (scratch on the neg?) is at the rear edge of the red bit.

Steve.

[Test Graham]

The difference in nose length is the same (unsurprisingly) as that between the Hurricane Mk.I and Mk.II, and close (I don't recall the exact measurement) to that between the Defiant Mk.I and Mk.II. If you think that isn't important, don't model it, but your rescribed angled panel line will look rather oddly placed.

[bentwaters81tfw]

I'm sure I can fudge the panel line. The biggest headache will be the revised canopy glazing. Looks like I will have to resort to vacforming, or more likely, make a plug.