Aeronavale Lancaster Mk. 7 help needed

[Tony Whittingham]

Hello All,

The Aeronavale received 54 Lancs under the Western Union program in the early 1950’s.

Apparently they were refurbished to GR. standard, and painted a dark blue colour. As this was very likely applied in England, I assume the colour was a British Standard colour.

The French also had a “blue nuit” colour. 
I suppose that US Navy Gloss Sea Blue was not used in this case.
 

Does anyone have any information, or thoughts on the colour applied to the French Lancasters? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

TW

 

[David Womby]

FWIW, Xtradecal sheet Z72061 suggests X121 Gloss Sea Blue.   They reference SAM V6 N2 which also says gloss sea blue.

David

[Mark Harmsworth]

I believe that 'Just Jane' (Lancaster NX611) may have been one of these. 

 

This may help:

http://on-target-aviation.com/Lanc NX611 & PA474.html

 

Being restored to airworthy status (you may well know this):

https://www.lincsaviation.co.uk/lancaster-restoration/

[Paul Lucas]

I don't have any specific information on the French WU Lancasters but I think that there might be two plausible alternatives for the overall dark blue scheme.

 

The first is Gloss Sea Blue as given in the SAM article. The reference is unsourced and appears in the caption to Mike Keep's artwork, not the main body of text. The first MDAP Douglas Skyraiders had arrived in Britain for the FAA in November 1951 and these aircraft were finished in Gloss Sea Blue. Under the terms of the MDAP Treaty, they had to be maintained in this finish and therefore Gloss Sea Blue was manufactured in the UK by ICI and provisioned in AP 1086 Section 33B.

 

Whether Avro would have known about this and an adequate supply of Gloss Sea Blue would have been available in time for the January 1952 delivery date of the first WU Lancasters is open to question.

 

The second and perhaps more plausible alternative is that the Lancasters were finished in Blue N.V.B.6, the 'dull' identification blue colour that Avro had applied to RAF Lancasters since 1941.

 

Even though this colour was dropped by the RAF in 1947, Avro would almost certainly have still been able to order a supply of it from whichever paint manufacturer they obtained their finishing materials from. 

 

I hope this is of some use.

 

Regards,

 

Paul.

[Selwyn]

2 hours ago, Paul Lucas said:

I don't have any specific information on the French WU Lancasters but I think that there might be two plausible alternatives for the overall dark blue scheme.

 

The first is Gloss Sea Blue as given in the SAM article. The reference is unsourced and appears in the caption to Mike Keep's artwork, not the main body of text. The first MDAP Douglas Skyraiders had arrived in Britain for the FAA in November 1951 and these aircraft were finished in Gloss Sea Blue. Under the terms of the MDAP Treaty, they had to be maintained in this finish and therefore Gloss Sea Blue was manufactured in the UK by ICI and provisioned in AP 1086 Section 33B.

 

Whether Avro would have known about this and an adequate supply of Gloss Sea Blue would have been available in time for the January 1952 delivery date of the first WU Lancasters is open to question.

 

The second and perhaps more plausible alternative is that the Lancasters were finished in Blue N.V.B.6, the 'dull' identification blue colour that Avro had applied to RAF Lancasters since 1941.

 

Even though this colour was dropped by the RAF in 1947, Avro would almost certainly have still been able to order a supply of it from whichever paint manufacturer they obtained their finishing materials from. 

 

I hope this is of some use.

 

Regards,

 

Paul.

Could it be RAF Blue grey?

 

Selwyn

[Troy Smith]

2 hours ago, Paul Lucas said:

The second and perhaps more plausible alternative is that the Lancasters were finished in Blue N.V.B.6, the 'dull' identification blue colour that Avro had applied to RAF Lancasters since 1941.

 

a google image search of Aeronaval Lancaster didn't turn up much, but this image from South Africa 

https://www.fad.co.za/Resources/memoirs/beeton2.htm

"Strangely enough, several interesting French aircraft visited Durban in the 'fifties. These included Dassault MD 315 Flamant light twin-engined transports of the Armee de l'Air (French Air Force), which made several trips from their base in Madagascar, and two huge Sud-Est SE 2010 Armagnac four-engined transports, which arrived carrying ships' spares. The Armagnac, powered by four 3 500 hp Pratt & Whitney R-4360 Wasp Major radials, was reputed to be the largest civil transport in the world during the mid-fifties. However, best of all were the three Avro Lancaster patrol bombers of the Aeronavale (French Naval Air Arm) which visited as late as 1958. These must have been some of the last Lancasters in front-line service anywhere in the world, at that time."

 

 

They do not look gloss, but are quite old.  

RAF wartime roundel blue looks a better bet than ICI Gloss Sea Blue from these photos.

 

The first of the Lancasters destined for France shows off its classic lines prior to delivery. Formerly B.VII NX613, it received the new identity WU-01 for Aéronavale service and was handed over to the French in December 1951. Avro staff photographer Paul Cullerne took this and many other images of WU-01 during late 1951.

 

Does not look high gloss to me.

 

 

https://www.keymodelworld.com/article/maritime-magnificence

 

there is this small image off reddit, but maybe colourised

 

@Tony Whittingham Might be worth asking one of the places with an ex Aeronavale Lancaster to ask if any bits remained blue.

 

There are images of a restored nose section in France,  which does look gloss sea blue

https://www.airhistory.net/photo/51398/WU-21

http://www.warbirdregistry.org/lancregistry/lanc-nx664.html

 

HTH

[Tony Whittingham]

Thanks @Troy Smith!

 I especially like the very weathered upper surfaces of the wings!

The photos also show that these aircraft had rear facing cameras, and there’s a tantalizing glimpse of the radar scanner inside the radome.

 

TW

[GiampieroSilvestri]

From what I know aeronavale Lancaster were painted gloss sea blue like their Grumman F6F-5 Hellcat or F4U-7 Corsair but they were also painted in white or light grey.The pictures were found doing a internet search.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

 

 

Edited April 3, 2023 by GiampieroSilvestri

[sloegin57]

8 minutes ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

From what I know aeronavale Lancaster were painted dark sea blue like their Grumman F6F-5 Hellcat or F4U-7 Corsair but they were also painted in white or light grey.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

 

 

 

 

Quote from "Lancaster The Story of a Famous Bomber" by Bruce Robertson, Page 98 Paragraph 4 regarding Aeronavale Lancasters :-

 

"The aircraft were to have been finished in American 'midnite blue', but this colour was thought to be too sombre and a lighter shade resulted in an attractive royal blue". (Note the lack of capitols in the colour description title).

 

HTH

Dennis

 

[Paul Lucas]

That is a very interesting piece of information that opens up another possibility, especially when the tone visible in the pre delivery photo of WU-01 posted by @Troy Smith above is taken into account.

 

When I first saw that photo I thought that the tone of the blue finish looked too light to be either Gloss Sea Blue or the Blue V.N.B.6 that I had suggested, or even RAF Blue Grey as suggested by @Selwyn.

 

In light of Mr Robertson's colloquial description of the colour as being a "royal blue" I suggest the possibility that Avro might have used the Bright Blue that was used in the British national markings at that time. This was BS 381C No.108 Aircraft Blue.

 

According to my copy of Avro Drawing Number Z6273 that shows the Medium Sea Grey and Anti-searchlight Glossy Black scheme as applied to the Lincoln, Avro would have had two types of paint in this colour to choose from.

 

The first was to DTD 314, the wartime synthetic matt Type S finish, 33B/988. This was used on the upper surfaces of the Lincoln's wings.

 

The  second was to DTD 260, a synthetic gloss finish, 33B/856-858. This was used on the sides of the Lincoln's  fuselage and tail fins.

 

I have no idea which, if either, of these would have been used. I suppose it depends how glossy you think WU-01 appears in this, or any other photo that might come to light.

[Tony Whittingham]

There is a photo in the Squadron book on Lancasters, showing a glossy finish on an Aeronavale Lancaster. I’m leaning toward the DTD 260 finish in a dark blue, but not greenish as in the case of USN glossy sea blue. From other photos of AU-1, and F4U-7 in French service, the blue seems to be different from the USN colour, especially on aircraft with later markings.

Thanks to all for the help!

TW

[Giorgio N]

On 4/3/2023 at 11:26 PM, sloegin57 said:

Quote from "Lancaster The Story of a Famous Bomber" by Bruce Robertson, Page 98 Paragraph 4 regarding Aeronavale Lancasters :-

 

"The aircraft were to have been finished in American 'midnite blue', but this colour was thought to be too sombre and a lighter shade resulted in an attractive royal blue". (Note the lack of capitols in the colour description title).

 

HTH

Dennis

 

 

It is interesting that a number of French websites mention the opposite, that is the replacement of a "bleu royal" with a more sombre "USN blue" colour. See for example this page:

 

http://www.netmarine.net/aero/unites/25f/histoire1952-58.htm

 

I know that B/W pictures can be misleading, however they seem to show aircraft with a lighter and a darker blue. Is it because they were taken with different filter/film combination ? Or did the overall colour actually change in French service ? The colour pictures posted by Troy seem to show aircraft in a shade closer to the wartime roundel blue but may also be not too different from a weathered USN style Sea Blue. Would this be considered similar to a "royal blue" ? Or was the original British blue lighter (Bright Blue?) ?

[tempestfan]

Could the blue used for the airframe have been the same as used for the blue dots of the French roundels? Which of course may have been any medium blue at hand... At least the pre-delivery photo could lead to that conclusion.

 

I agree with @Giorgio N not only on the pitfalls of the "scientific art" of b/w picture guesswork, but also that a repaint is definitely a possibility. While the second pic in @Troy Smith's post shows/appears to show upper surfaces that may tally with the first pic in tone, the upper surfaces are apparently rather weathered, and the rear fuselage sides look distinctly darker.

 

The ancient Aircam #12 takes the elegant solution on giving no colour call out at all 🙂 

 

 

[Junchan]

Post-war Lancaster Colour Schemes section of Avro Lancaster in Military Service 1945-1965 by Martin Derry and Neil Robinson describes as follows; Initially the Lancasters were painted in a factory-applied overall dark royal blue scheme with Aéronavale cocardes applied to all
six positions, each narrowly outlined in yellow with a black anchor superimposed.

 

Jun in Tokyo

https://www.flickr.com/photos/horaburo/albums

[Blimpyboy]

Perhaps these threads may be of use:

 

and

 

[Tony Whittingham]

Thanks to all for your input!

Sea Blue or not Sea Blue? That is the question! Looks like another colour can of worms just opened!

 

TW