Racing Hurricane: Hawker's G-AMAU

[ModelingEdmontonian]

@Troy Smith thanks for all the comments/photos. This one in particular makes my Tamiya X3 look like a good match.

On 10/15/2022 at 4:46 PM, Troy Smith said:

 

But I thought @Courageous's P-63 looked closer to what was on G-AMAU with Humbrol 15, looking much lighter than Tamiya X3 on my Hurricane.

 

Here is G-AMAU, now with exhaust stacks and upper cockpit painted. I think she's looking purty!

 

[Col.]

I think she's looking pretty as well

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

She is quite attractive but then again Blue and Hurricane … why wouldn't it. 

[Courageous]

5 hours ago, ModelingEdmontonian said:

But I thought @Courageous's P-63 looked closer to what was on G-AMAU with Humbrol 15, looking much lighter than Tamiya X3 on my Hurricane.

After watching this thread and its 'blue', I think I would paint my racing Hurricane (when I get it) in Humbrol 15.

 

Stuart

[Troy Smith]

7 hours ago, ModelingEdmontonian said:

P-63 looked closer to what was on G-AMAU with Humbrol 15, looking much lighter than Tamiya X3 on my Hurricane.

Humbrol 15 is Midnight Blue, it's a very dark blue.   I think the only Humbrol 15 I have is on an Airfix Wildcat for the late 70's... buried in the shed. 

I've not as yet done a brush out of X-3,   but it looked a good call for an non mix option in the jar.

 

A shot in daylight, against a more neutral/natural background, as opposed to white,(for that not to white out, the blue may well appear darker)   may give a different result.   

 

I have a couple of the Hasegawa 1/48th Kings Air Race boxings,  and I really like dark blue, and Hurricanes so it's something I'm rather interested in myself.   I'd not seen the model of the Tomtit before,  with an approx Methuen reference. 

 

Also, we run into scale effect,  so a small model, again, against a white background,  may well appear very dark.   

 

Be interesting to see a daylight shot against a natural background and see how it looks.

 

cheers

T

[Casey]

@Troy Smith@ModelingEdmontonian

 

Here you go: I've grabbed all blues there, just in case:

 

 

Sources:

• Colors prefixed by RAF: British Aviation Colours of World War Two, blue cover.
• Humbrol 15: My own drawdowns. Yes they are that different, depending on where I get the paint from.
• Methuen 20F8: Methuen Handbook of Colour, third edition, 1978
• BS: BS381C:1996 from BSI
• Tamiya X-3: My own drawdown. GU is it's gloss units, it's VERY glossy. For some reason it quite close equivalent of Enamel Humbrol 15 (DE 2.67)

 

All measured at the same time with same device, so they should be directly comparable.

 

Update: I've added Tamiya X-3

 

Edited October 22, 2022 by Casey
Added Tamiya X-3

[Casey]

Hm, I wonder if I should make an X-3 drawdown for comparison...

[Casey]

On 10/18/2022 at 3:22 AM, Troy Smith said:

P-63 looked closer to what was on G-AMAU with Humbrol 15, looking much lighter than Tamiya X3 on my Hurricane.

Please look at my measurements, I have at least two different Humbrol 15 shades, one from older enamel, one from modern Acrylic.

 

Actually Humbrol 15 - Midnight Blue was the first color I started to question in the area of color repeatability from Humbrol.

[ModelingEdmontonian]

On 10/21/2022 at 5:11 PM, Casey said:

@Troy Smith@ModelingEdmontonian

 

Here you go: I've grabbed all blues there, just in case:

 

 

Sources:

• Colors prefixed by RAF: British Aviation Colours of World War Two, blue cover.
• Humbrol 15: My own drawdowns. Yes they are that different, depending on where I get the paint from.
• Methuen 20F8: Methuen Handbook of Colour, third edition, 1978
• BS: BS381C:1996 from BSI
• Tamiya X-3: My own drawdown. GU is it's gloss units, it's VERY glossy. For some reason it quite close equivalent of Enamel Humbrol 15 (DE 2.67)

 

All measured at the same time with same device, so they should be directly comparable.

 

Update: I've added Tamiya X-3

 

Fascinating.... I don't know how to read the chart intelligently, but I'm very impressed! Thanks for doing this. Somewhat stunning how different the Humbrol 15s are, and also interesting how close Tamiya X-3 is to the enamel version. I think all of this makes me feel better about the X-3, not that I was particularly worried.... Overall I am very relaxed in terms of the colours I use, especially since I don't want to get into mixing paints. 

 

On 10/18/2022 at 4:22 AM, Troy Smith said:

Be interesting to see a daylight shot against a natural background and see how it looks.

I'll try to get this today, I'm curious too...

 

On 10/18/2022 at 4:22 AM, Troy Smith said:

I have a couple of the Hasegawa 1/48th Kings Air Race boxings,  and I really like dark blue, and Hurricanes so it's something I'm rather interested in myself. 

does this mean we will get to watch Troy build G-AMAU in 1/48?

[ModelingEdmontonian]

I started painting the fuel tank aluminum. I think I have its outline mostly correct, will just touch it up now and should be good.

 

 

I also started decaling in places. I realized the black stencils are pointless on the dark blue, so won't stencil any further (maybe one more on the fuel tank, since it will actually show up there). Lifelike provides incorrect instructions regarding the "41" on the underside. I followed them at first...

 

 

Then about half an hour later checked my reference and realized clearly the "41" points inward. 

 

 

I was able to correct without too much trouble. 

 

 

These are nice decals, by the way.

Edited October 24, 2022 by ModelingEdmontonian

[ModelingEdmontonian]

On 10/18/2022 at 4:22 AM, Troy Smith said:

A shot in daylight, against a more neutral/natural background, as opposed to white,(for that not to white out, the blue may well appear darker)   may give a different result.   

I snapped these quickly on the way out the door this afternoon...

 

 

Certainly looks lighter in natural light against the lawn/autumn leaves doesn't it?

[Troy Smith]

 

34 minutes ago, ModelingEdmontonian said:

Certainly looks lighter in natural light against the lawn/autumn leaves doesn't it?

 

indeed. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Casey]

4 hours ago, ModelingEdmontonian said:

Fascinating.... I don't know how to read the chart

I completely forgot people may be unfamiliar with some of the color measurements used in paints industry

 

Let me add some extra tutorial:

• Name - Color name, as explained in my post
• Remarks - I usually put extra measurements here, in this case it was Gloss Unit.  Gloss Units (GU), of gloss meters is a scaling based on a highly polished reference black glass standard with a defined refractive index having a specular reflectance of 100GU at the specified angle. My Gloss Meter is 60 degree. More information: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossmeter
• L*, a*, b* - It is color measurement defined by CIE standard, it expresses color as three values: L* for perceptual lightness and a* and b* for the four unique colors of human vision: red, green, blue and yellow. More information - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIELAB_color_space
• R, G, B - Conversion of above value to the sRGB color space
• Color Sim - A color swatch of RGB above
• H,V,C (Munsell) - A color coordinate in Munsell color system. CIELAB is a new digital version of this color system, but I have Munsell color book, which easily lets me use above coordinates as color reference. More information - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munsell_color_system
• Metamerism - Used only for color comparison, shows how color differ in different light conditions. Some colors that match in daylight may look totally different in different light. A pretty good example of natural human approach for metamerism is the request from @Troy Smith - it is normal for people to want to see the color in same condition, ie: natural light and on neutral background, to be able to directly compare them.
• Test mode - Describes specular (reflections) settings used by my spectrophotometer, SCI means Specular Component Included. Reads done in this setting incorporate all reflections to the measurement, which lets me ignore the color finish to perform readouts and evaluate the "true" color. SCI readouts of glossy and matt versions of same paint will give same readouts. More information - https://sensing.konicaminolta.us/us/blog/specular-component-included-sci-vs-specular-component-excluded-sce/
• Light Source - Describes the simulated light conditions by my device and which standard observer is used for color calculations. D65/10 means D65 (Daylight) Illuminant, more info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuminant_D65. Number 10 describes an 'observer', which is a model of a human vision used to analyse the color. 10 degree standard observer is the standard type used in spectrophotometry for evaluation and color formulation. More information - https://sensing.konicaminolta.us/us/blog/understanding-standard-observers-in-color-measurement/
• UV Settings - UV400 means that in my spectrophotometer I have a physical 400nm UV filter, which 'cuts out' the ultraviolet component from readouts.

 

HTH!

Edited October 23, 2022 by Casey

[Troy Smith]

Just now, Casey said:

I completely forgot people may be unfamiliar with some of the color measurements used in paints industry

 

Let me add some extra tutorial

Thanks!  I was going to ask for some clarification.    I think this maybe worth a thread of it's own. 

[Troy Smith]

On 22/10/2022 at 00:11, Casey said:

Here you go: I've grabbed all blues there, just in case:

Thanks for this.   I'm aware of the DE reading, that under 2.0 is a very good match. 

In this specfic case, I'm curious as to how close the blues in questions are, as in ww2 roundel blue, this is quoted as being a match for BS105 Oxford Blue,  aand then the post I found with a model painted in the same  "Hawker vintage flight"  blue, with the visual description of Methuen 20F8, and I presume  the enamel Humbrol 15, which certainly was a very dark blue in the 70's.  

 

If you have not read the entire thread, I posted this up on page 1

one detail that is really useful, from 

https://www.key.aero/forum/historic-aviation/23820-blue-hurricane

 

"During the current work being undertaken on PZ865, we removed a blanked over air scoop about the size of a 2p coin. Under the rivetted blanking plate was the intake scoop in the original blue paintwork:) I duly fetched my books of colour chips and set to work. Although the colour does change in different lighting conditions (they all do) it was a strong match for one of them: Oxford Blue. Here's a picture, you decide..."

 

 

I don't know how useful this, eg can a photo with a known colour on it  be used to help define the other colour?   I'm curious for my own use,  I suggested Tamiya X-3 of OP as I know he'd rather not mix paint,    so how does it stand up as a match?  

Suggestions for a better match? 

 

5 hours ago, ModelingEdmontonian said:

does this mean we will get to watch Troy build G-AMAU in 1/48?

My intention,  and I've not bothered to finish setting up my work area since I started messing about with in the summer, ,  is to do a dual build, one OOB, the other with the various corrections I on occasion suggest,  and doing the two different dates of basically the same scheme seemed a good way to do this, especially as it's basically one colour which would perhaps allow any changes to be easier to compare and allow folks to decide if worth the bother.  I think one of those things that would be better to do,  and then post up the comparisons.  

 

Since Hobby 2000 are reissuing various Hasegawa Hurricanes it maybe of use, though we now have the prospect of two new 1/48th Hurricanes due...   

 

cheers

T

 

 

[Casey]

46 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

In this specfic case, I'm curious as to how close the blues in questions are, as in ww2 roundel blue, this is quoted as being a match for BS105 Oxford Blue,  aand then the post I found with a model painted in the same  "Hawker vintage flight"  blue, with the visual description of Methuen 20F8, and I presume  the enamel Humbrol 15, which certainly was a very dark blue in the 70's.  

 

If you have not read the entire thread, I posted this up on page 1

I did not cross compare those colors, but if you need a simple way to perform that math, here is an online calculator that does DE00 calc, and the formula used looks okay. Just make sure to choose L*a*b* values to use the readouts.

 

https://colormine.org/delta-e-calculator/cie2000

 

For example Oxford Blue vs Humbrol 15 Enamel is DE00 5.42 according to this calculator.

 

5.4244 = L:29.16,A:1,B:-15.63 -> L:27.47,A:-1.52,B:-10.07

 

The paint on photo looks a tiny bit darker and more saturated than Oxford Blue, but knowing what I know about colors I do not trust my eyes nor color photos anymore

Edited October 24, 2022 by Casey

[ModelingEdmontonian]

4 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

 

 

indeed. 

So I didn't come out and say it, but: @Troy Smith was right, Tamiya X-3 looks to be a good match for Hawker's blue!

 

3 hours ago, Casey said:

I completely forgot people may be unfamiliar with some of the color measurements used in paints industry

 

Let me add some extra tutorial:

• Name - Color name, as explained in my post
• Remarks - I usually put extra measurements here, in this case it was Gloss Unit.  Gloss Units (GU), of gloss meters is a scaling based on a highly polished reference black glass standard with a defined refractive index having a specular reflectance of 100GU at the specified angle. My Gloss Meter is 60 degree. More information: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossmeter
• L*, a*, b* - It is color measurement defined by CIE standard, it expresses color as three values: L* for perceptual lightness and a* and b* for the four unique colors of human vision: red, green, blue and yellow. More information - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIELAB_color_space
• R, G, B - Conversion of above value to the sRGB color space
• Color Sim - A color swatch of RGB above
• H,V,C (Munsell) - A color coordinate in Munsell color system. CIELAB is a new digital version of this color system, but I have Munsell color book, which easily lets me use above coordinates as color reference. More information - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munsell_color_system
• Metamerism - Used only for color comparison, shows how color differ in different light conditions. Some colors that match in daylight may look totally different in different light. A pretty good example of natural human approach for metamerism is the request from @Troy Smith - it is normal for people to want to see the color in same condition, ie: natural light and on neutral background, to be able to directly compare them.
• Test mode - Describes specular (reflections) settings used by my spectrophotometer, SCI means Specular Component Included. Reads done in this setting incorporate all reflections to the measurement, which lets me ignore the color finish to perform readouts and evaluate the "true" color. SCI readouts of glossy and matt versions of same paint will give same readouts. More information - https://sensing.konicaminolta.us/us/blog/specular-component-included-sci-vs-specular-component-excluded-sce/
• Light Source - Describes the simulated light conditions by my device and which standard observer is used for color calculations. D65/10 means D65 (Daylight) Illuminant, more info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuminant_D65. Number 10 describes an 'observer', which is a model of a human vision used to analyse the color. 10 degree standard observer is the standard type used in spectrophotometry for evaluation and color formulation. More information - https://sensing.konicaminolta.us/us/blog/understanding-standard-observers-in-color-measurement/
• UV Settings - UV400 means that in my spectrophotometer I have a physical 400nm UV filter, which 'cuts out' the ultraviolet component from readouts.

 

HTH!

incredible, thanks for the tutorial! 

 

3 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

I think this maybe worth a thread of it's own. 

Agree, @Casey's tutorial post deserves to be more widely shared than in my humble GB WIP thread!

 

2 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

I suggested Tamiya X-3 of OP as I know he'd rather not mix paint,

you know me well...

 

2 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

My intention,  and I've not bothered to finish setting up my work area since I started messing about with in the summer, ,  is to do a dual build, one OOB, the other with the various corrections I on occasion suggest,  and doing the two different dates of basically the same scheme seemed a good way to do this, especially as it's basically one colour which would perhaps allow any changes to be easier to compare and allow folks to decide if worth the bother.  I think one of those things that would be better to do,  and then post up the comparisons.  

save me a seat! you know 1/48 isn't my scale, but I know I will learn a lot following this...

 

2 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

though we now have the prospect of two new 1/48th Hurricanes due...   

Oh? Arma and who else?

[ModelingEdmontonian]

With the Micro Mask off the landing light, I went at it with Kristal Klear... the Revell piece is really quite bad so there was a lot of space to fill. It won't look amazing, but hopefully I can use Pledge to seal in the Kristal Klear once its dry and it will be fine.

 

 

On the underside I also got to work with the amber ID light in the hole I drilled. This is Kristal Klear with some red and yellow paint mixed in.

 

[Troy Smith]

8 hours ago, ModelingEdmontonian said:

Arma and who else?

Hobby Boss have announced a Mk.I due in November.   This might be a good , Hobby Boss /Trumpeter, which I was told by soome who used to run a shop and knows various companies, are on different floor of the same factory,  anyway,  they usually make well engineered kits,  how accurate they are is hot and miss ..... but if  they got the right , as in accurate research.....  and, the 1/24th Trumpeter kit is really good shape wise.  my main complaint is the recessed riveting,  and they botch a few smaller bits, Sspinner shape, Mk.I vs II rads, carb intake, seat..)  but the main parts are 'wow'.....   

 

so IF the HB IS based on the same research....    I've not seen any parts shots as yet.    They might have based it on the easy build kit though, which is OK but not great....  

[ModelingEdmontonian]

Decals now on the fuselage... these are maybe the best decals I have ever worked with, they go on like a dream.

 

[ModelingEdmontonian]

All the decals on now. Shouldn't be too much further to go with this one...

 

[Andwil]

Looking very smart indeed.

 

AW

[Courageous]

Looking rather smart in her paint and stickers.

 

Stuart

[ModelingEdmontonian]

Well, G_AMAU is all done. But, for some reason the URLs I am now generating view Onedrive to embed look completely different than they used to and are no longer working. They start with "<iframe src=" now and then have what looks to be a normal URL, but when pasted into this text box, nothing generates. So, I'm not sure what to do or how to show photos of a completed G-AMAU!

 

I am having another, different sort of technical challenge with my superglue, too. Basically I have now had two bottles' lids glue together such that I cannot open them! I can open the bottle, but not the two piece lid so I have no way to dispense the glue. I can stick a toothpick into the large opening to get some glue onto it, but this is not a good solution in the long term, because we all know eventually I will tip the bottle over and have super glue everywhere! Any suggestions? Do others have this problem or is it just me? 

 

This is the superglue I use, by the way: https://ak-interactive.com/product/magnet-ultra-resistant-cyanocrylate-glue/

Edited October 30, 2022 by ModelingEdmontonian

[bigbadbadge]

Looking rather splendid with the decals on .

Great job

Chris