Hampden Bottom Turret Confusion

[Tweener]

While preparing references for a Hampden build I plan to do this summer, I've come across a few profiles that have shown a turret being added just underneath the ventral gunners seat. I've only found one photo that (barely) shows this fitting, a Soviet aircraft:
 

The turret can be seen just to the right of the crewman's face.

Were these common at all? Were they only a Soviet mod? Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Tweener

[Vulcanicity]

For what it's worth I have never seen this on an RAF Hampden so I'm guessing it's a Soviet mod. That said I'm sure I've seen that photo before and not noticed it either!

[Graham Boak]

You are seeing the tail fins of the Monoplane Aircraft Tail . These were fitted to torpedoes when carried by aircraft that couldn't fly as low and slow as a Swordfish.   For example Beauforts, Hampdens and Barracudas.  Similar devices were carried on torpedoes of other nations  The Hampden bottom turret was reduced in depth so that the tail of the torpedo stuck out of the rear of the bomb bay.  The torpedo was carried semi-semi-internally with the outer bay doors closing normally and the inner ones folding until touching the sides of the torpedo, then closing normally after the torpedo had been dropped.  For a long time this was misunderstood in modelling circles as a deepening of the Hampden bomb bay doors at the rear, where what was being seen was the step  up to the shallower ventral turret behind a normal bomb bay.

 

The AZ boxing of the Valom kit includes this feature, but the Valom torpedo bomber does not.

 

These aircraft had been repainted in Coastal's Temperate Sea Scheme with a low demarcation, despite several well-publicised photos showing torpedo bomber Hampdens still in Bomber Command colours, TLS with a high demarcation.  Other photos show the low demarcation.  My understanding is that the RAF Museum's aircraft is to be painted in TLS because these colours were found on the surviving airframe - remnants of its original colours before conversion perhaps?  Whether all the aircraft that went to Russia were identically painted is an open question .

[Tweener]

51 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

You are seeing the tail fins of the Monoplane Aircraft Tail . These were fitted to torpedoes when carried by aircraft that couldn't fly as low and slow as a Swordfish.   For example Beauforts, Hampdens and Barracudas.  Similar devices were carried on torpedoes of other nations  The Hampden bottom turret was reduced in depth so that the tail of the torpedo stuck out of the rear of the bomb bay.  The torpedo was carried semi-semi-internally with the outer bay doors closing normally and the inner ones folding until touching the sides of the torpedo, then closing normally after the torpedo had been dropped.  For a long time this was misunderstood in modelling circles as a deepening of the Hampden bomb bay doors at the rear, where what was being seen was the step  up to the shallower ventral turret behind a normal bomb bay.

 

The AZ boxing of the Valom kit includes this feature, but the Valom torpedo bomber does not.

 

These aircraft had been repainted in Coastal's Temperate Sea Scheme with a low demarcation, despite several well-publicised photos showing torpedo bomber Hampdens still in Bomber Command colours, TLS with a high demarcation.  Other photos show the low demarcation.  My understanding is that the RAF Museum's aircraft is to be painted in TLS because these colours were found on the surviving airframe - remnants of its original colours before conversion perhaps?  Whether all the aircraft that went to Russia were identically painted is an open question .

This profile may better show what I'm referring to:

As you said, the original gunners position has been made smaller, but another gun has been installed in that place, as seen in the photo.

 

1 hour ago, Vulcanicity said:

For what it's worth I have never seen this on an RAF Hampden so I'm guessing it's a Soviet mod. That said I'm sure I've seen that photo before and not noticed it either!

I've only found this single actual photo of it - the mod came to my attention by way of a Bilek decal sheet for Hampdens and Battles that I picked up last summer. Now I just need to get the Battle, but I'm holding out for Airfix to release a new one...
Maybe 2028?

[Troy Smith]

11 minutes ago, Tweener said:

but another gun has been installed in that place, as seen in the photo.

 

This is what @Graham Boak is referring too, 

 

which is what appears to visible here, the two square fins and cross piece

 

 

long thread here on Hampden TBs, which discusses this cut down gun fairing and much more, which is where the top picture is from.  Note that the rear of the British torpedo sits in a cut out underneath.  

 

The VVS did fit new upper turrets at some point

 

 

from https://lend-lease.net/articles-en/interview-with-alekseev-dmitrii-dmitrievich/

see also

 

[janneman36]

2 hours ago, Tweener said:

While preparing references for a Hampden build I plan to do this summer, I've come across a few profiles that have shown a turret being added just underneath the ventral gunners seat. I've only found one photo that (barely) shows this fitting, a Soviet aircraft:
 

The turret can be seen just to the right of the crewman's face.

Were these common at all? Were they only a Soviet mod? Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Tweener

To be honest I do think what you are referring at is the wooden tailplane mod for the torpedo instead of a turret.

I have the same picture in a Hampden book and I never saw a turret in this details.

And these details are the same as earlyer posted pics.

You even can see the left and right side fin of the mod in being two small rectangles ( one near the right shoulder and both being the same shape/size)

The drawing looks to me like a bad interpretation of this picture.

It really wouldn’t make any sense to make such a small turret in that position as the gunners position already was hideously cramped unless the gunner was a Houdini .

The torpedo on a TB Hampden  was hidden in the modified fuselage/gunner position ( they made a cavity in it)

I allready posted some pics in one of the forementioned threads from the restoration from cosford.

If this was a turret there was no way to position the torpedo properly in the bombbay as it is already a deepened bombbay in the regular TB Hampden .

The mods mentioned about the modified turrets simply refer to another type gun installation in the same position of the original.

 

cheers, Jan

 

[Tweener]

11 minutes ago, janneman36 said:

To be honest I do think what you are referring at is the wooden tailplane mod for the torpedo instead of a turret.

I have the same picture in a Hampden book and I never saw a turret in this details.

You even can see the left and right side fin of the mod in being two small rectangles ( one near the right shoulder and both being the same shape/size)

The drawing looks to me like a bad interpretation of this picture.

It really wouldn’t make any sense to make such a small turret in that position as the gunners position already was hideously cramped unless the gunner was a Houdini .

The torpedo on a TB Hampden  was hidden in the modified fuselage/gunner position ( they made a cavity in it)

If this was a turret there was no way to position the torpedo properly in the bombbay as it is already a deepened bombbay in the regular TB Hampden .

 

cheers, Jan

 

 

21 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

 

This is what @Graham Boak is referring too, 

 

which is what appears to visible here, the two square fins and cross piece

 

 

long thread here on Hampden TBs, which discusses this cut down gun fairing and much more, which is where the top picture is from.  Note that the rear of the British torpedo sits in a cut out underneath.  

 

The VVS did fit new upper turrets at some point

 

 

from https://lend-lease.net/articles-en/interview-with-alekseev-dmitrii-dmitrievich/

see also

 

Looking things over again, I'm inclined to agree. That said, I'm a little confused now, as I clearly recall once reading something that had described the turret as being similar to the ones seen under some late mark Blenheims, and I want to know who thought up such a thing! Thanks for the help all, and especially for the photo of the modified top turret - that'll go to to the top of the list when I build my Hampden, assuming I don't try to convert it to the first prototype.

 

[janneman36]

A better picture of the aircraft you mentioned..

 

 

cheers, Jan

[dogsbody]

This photo is courtesy of author Carl Vincent.

 

It shows the underside in one of the Hampden torpedo bombers that were at No. 32 OTU RCAF, at Patricia Bay, British Columbia.

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

[brewerjerry]

35 minutes ago, dogsbody said:

This photo is courtesy of author Carl Vincent.

 

It shows the underside in one of the Hampden torpedo bombers that were at No. 32 OTU RCAF, at Patricia Bay, British Columbia.

 

 

 

 

 

Chris

Hi

    Thanks for the photo

 

    cheers

          jerry

Edited April 1, 2022 by brewerjerry

[stevehnz]

2 hours ago, dogsbody said:

This photo is courtesy of author Carl Vincent.

 

It shows the underside in one of the Hampden torpedo bombers that were at No. 32 OTU RCAF, at Patricia Bay, British Columbia.

 

Chris

Not the most aerodynamic cross section on the wing part, that sure surprised me.

Steve.

[Vulcanicity]

Ah, that makes sense on a second and third look at the photo. I was mis-categorising the visible part of the vertical fin of the torpedo air tail as part of the airman's jacket, which made the rest of it look a lot like a small  turret with a machine gun. I think the artist of that profile of White 30 made the same mistake!

[Graham Boak]

It doesn't need to be particularly aerodynamic.  It only needs to keep the torpedo straight and level so that it hits the water at the right angle to enter smoothly and not break up.  It is single-use  disposable and therefore needs to be cheap, preferably from non-strategic materials.

[brewerjerry]

5 hours ago, stevehnz said:

Not the most aerodynamic cross section on the wing part, that sure surprised me.

Steve.

Hi

    as the photo is of a 32 OTU hampden at Pat Bay Canada, it is likely that local supply was used, hence a plank of wood,

   unlike the one in tbe other photo in the thread which looks aerodynamic 

    it might even be possibly a local canadian hampden torpedo bomber conversion ? 

   cheers

     jerry 

 

Edited April 1, 2022 by brewerjerry

[Graham Boak]

Jan's second posting not only shows the MAT clearly but also, looking at the front of the aircraft. how the outer doors are fully closed when carrying a torpedo but the inner ones are not.  However, the bomb bay was not deepened for the torpedo bomber - it was the standard bombbay but with a Heavy Store Carrier fitted.  Thus the torpedo could not be contained fully within the lower fuselage lines - although had this been possible the lower gun position would have had to be reduced even further, if possible.  (Did I say turret? - sorry, not a turret. of course, at least in British terminology but maybe in Russian.)

[EwenS]

There is an explanation of the operation of the MAT in this wartime RAF torpedo training film. See from about 17.00 onwards.

 

[janneman36]

6 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Jan's second posting not only shows the MAT clearly but also, looking at the front of the aircraft. how the outer doors are fully closed when carrying a torpedo but the inner ones are not.  However, the bomb bay was not deepened for the torpedo bomber - it was the standard bombbay but with a Heavy Store Carrier fitted.  Thus the torpedo could not be contained fully within the lower fuselage lines - although had this been possible the lower gun position would have had to be reduced even further, if possible.  (Did I say turret? - sorry, not a turret. of course, at least in British terminology but maybe in Russian.)

You are correct about the bay not being deepened, my remark about this is indeed not correct ..

What I tried to refer to was the cutout at the gunners position ..😉

@dogsbodythat is a great picture of the torpedo installation, it was a new one for me👍

 

cheers, Jan

[Tweener]

On 4/1/2022 at 4:41 AM, Vulcanicity said:

Ah, that makes sense on a second and third look at the photo. I was mis-categorising the visible part of the vertical fin of the torpedo air tail as part of the airman's jacket, which made the rest of it look a lot like a small  turret with a machine gun. I think the artist of that profile of White 30 made the same mistake!

This is precisely what happened to me as well 😅

[maurice northcott]

Also in the photo of aircraft 30 it looks as if the star under the right wing (at least) has 2 points to the front.......