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Hi ,following a vicious and uncalled for critque of my painting skills and technique ,i have decided to repaint the following models .

Scraped most of the decals off ,next step a fresh coat of dark yellow .uU6jOyM.jpgvI91kT8.jpgkTgvixS.jpghzrOD3Y.jpggzXQ5ut.jpg

 

 

5U4HtXc.jpg

 

 

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They look pretty good to me too.

 

They are "your" models  so if they look good to you then nothing else really matters. I have tried a few times

to follow other people's ideas of how things should look and gave up. It is my stuff and if you don't like it

too bad.

 

My $0.02 for what it's worth.

 

Keep on, but don't repaint unless you really want to.

 

Lloyd

 

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Hi ,all that is true ,but to be honest i was not happy with the results of my painting ,i will have to sort through the spare decal  tin for some new markings .

Going to try Tamiya Nato Green and Brown instead of Tamiya dark green and red brown this time round.

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I use Tamiya acrylics only now and for WW2 German AFV's it is usually XF-60 Dark Yellow base over NATO Black as a primer and then

NATO  Green and NATO Brown as the camo.  I'm guilty of using the blocks and soft edge camo as I don't think the wavy Green/Brown lines

on a yellow background were too effective in real life. Seems to me at any distance the wavy lines weren't visible and all that showed was a

yellow vehicle. IMO the object of the camo was to break up the shape of the vehicle and the yellow/green/brown blocks do that.

The Germans are still using the block style camo on the Leopard 2A7 but NATO Black/Brown/Green and it still works.

 

Lloyd

 

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I'm with everyone else modeling is a personal thing and the only one you have to please is yourself,we all have different tastes if all looked the same would be very boring,I think your models are great,so keep up the good work,and some decals can be a pain just try and weather them a little along with the vehicle and this sometimes tones them down,thanks for posting your pic enjoyed them all.cheers.

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Well, if I were you I wouldn't go ahead and repaint the models. If you allow me to give my personal opinion, I'd argue that your models don't look wrong or off in any way.  The issue that those hectoring critics probably had in the back of their heads might have been, that they don't look finished. The AA guns in the two vehicles could use some detail painting e. g. Sometimes the tracks are left rubber black.

I believe that repainting everything would do more harm than good. Your tanks are neatly build, evenly painted with convincing colours, have their smaller parts painted properly and are now just waiting for the weathering, i. e. washes, scuffing, dust, rust, the whole procedure. I'd suggest you give that approach a go especially on the Steyr and the Pz III since those two came out very well so far!

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Hi .thanks for the replies .Still going to go ahead with the repainting ,as i said before i wasn't happy with the results regarding the colours i used .

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It turns out cocky05d comment "following a vicious and uncalled for critque of my painting skills and technique"

which refers to this thread

 

was meant to be tongue in cheek, as posted on my  profile

 

here's what I posted

"

I'd suggest the green was dark, but your model I'm afraid just looks wrong, as the disruptive pattern is blocks of solid colour,  especially if you imagine infield painting, (see below)   you do get more solid blocks later, but that  I believe is the 'ambush camouflage"   (which is quite complex and late war, google will expain  more) 

 

I''d try to explain, because there was massive variation in the  way German tanks got painted..

http://www.panzerworld.com/german-armor-camouflage

 

Quote

Late-war, 1943-1945

On 18 February 1943, all vehicles were ordered to be painted in a base coat of Dunkelgelb RAL 7028 (dark yellow). Only small pieces of equipment were to retain their previous color. On top of the Dunkelgelb base coat, stripes of Rotbraun RAL 8017 (red-brown) and Olivgrün RAL 6003 (olive green) was applied.

The Rotbraun and Olivgrün paint was delivered to the units in tins, which were thinned with any available liquid. It was then applied by the maintenance section, which allowed the pattern to match the terrain. This also resulted in a wide variety of patterns, from elaborate sprayed camouflage, to patterns that look like they were smeared on with a broom and rag.

To standardize and improve camouflage patterns, on 19 August 1944, it was ordered that all vehicles were to be painted at the factory. The pattern, Hinterhalt-Tarnung (ambush camouflage), still used a base color of Dunkelgelb, with Rotbraun and Olivgrün stripes. On top of each color, small dots of the other two were applied. This pattern was created to give the appearance of the sun shining through forest foliage.

In mid-September 1944, vehicles started leaving the factories in their red oxide primer, with only sparse camouflage. On 31 October 1944, more elaborate camouflage in Dunkelgelb, Rotbraun and Olivgrün began being applied at the factories over the red oxide primer. Furthermore, Dunkelgrau could be used if Dunkelgelb was unavailable. Despite this order, there has never been any evidence that Dunkelgrau was actually used.

On 20 December 1944, it was ordered that a Dunkelgrün base coat, with a hard-edge pattern of Dunkelgelb and Rotbraun should be used.

 

 

 

here's some  Stug pics,  note the wide variations in style,  

 

stugcol.jpg

 

stug4_1.jpg

 

 

 

stug-iii-f-5.jpg

 

stug-iii-f-8-1.jpg

 

 

 

26139338424_6ac81229c9_b.jpg

 

what the article does not was that spray guns were fairly common, and tanks had a compressed air outlet IIRC, but think of how wide a line spray a full size spray will produce,  the side skits of 323 show what is maybe the maximum width.

try to imagine being told to paint a real tank with a spray gun, (or a brush!), and how you'd  do it,and how big the spray pattern would be...  and then look the above pics

 

Probably a bit late.... but I hope of interest, though some careful tight spraying with  some of the dark yellow could be a a possible way to break  up the blocks of colour?

I mean, it could have been done like that, but maybe go up to a truck and imagine applying a disruptive pattern

 

I'm not very up on German vehicle camouflage,  but the idea that crews were given paint and told to do it themselves struck me as surprisingly anarchic for the Nazis,,,, but when you start looking at pictures, (rather than models or guessing) the massive variation become obvious.

 

have a google for images for more  on this. I only found a few Stugs showing camo clearly,(above)  ,but given their role, camo was important.

note also they would commonly use netting and cut trees/shrubs as well, 

 

The model looks very well built,  so the above is meant to be helpful, rather than negative, and, yes, I think some weathering in needed.

 

HTH

T

PS I believe that tools on the tank got sprayed with the basecolour as well, something I saw on youtuube I can't find,but here's a vid on weathering a Stug which be of use,  but does show tools painted base colour and then weathered.

"

 

Looking at other models posted (not  just the Stug)  I'd stand by my comments,  they look like models,  as the painting just looks overscale,  which was my main point,

for example

hzrOD3Y.jpg

 

the green squiggle here,  would be very difficult for a 1/35th man with a spraygun to do! 

for comparison

26139338424_6ac81229c9_b.jpg

 

Though if you did a model like this without the photo I'm sure some folks would think it  looked badly done!

 

 I added the above as I thought the Stug (and now the others) are very  well constructed, and the paint finish is excellent.

 

The post I quote took sometime to do, and was really meant to be constructive and helpful, I hoped it would be understood that I am NOT telling Cocky05d what to  do,  

 You will note I  did suggest adding more dunkel gelb to break up the other colours as a simpler solution.

 

On the colours used,  given the nature  of application,  using different shades of dark green and red brown, either different paint types or adjusting the  base  colours,  though some of  this can be achieved with weathering , filters etc, would give a better effect over a series of models.

 

cheers

T

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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@cocky05d I've seen much worse, mainly on my built shelf ;)

 

I'd suggest thickening up the camouflage colours but no more. It looks like you have an issue with decal film on a couple. Either polish the paint or put gloss varnish on where the decals go, then matt overall when done. I find it easier to weather over a varnish coat as it's more consistent than several paint colours.

 

Regarding German tools the wire cutters had dark red handles ALL tools were either Panzer grey or Dark Yellow. They may or may not have camouflage over them. At least that's what everybody has told me.

 

Weather or not?...That's your preference I've just finished my first ever weathering which I'll post soon but found a lot of help here.

 

Troy is a decent bloke but, like everybody, can be misunderstood on the Interweb. I think people think of it as talking whereas it's more like writing letters. He certainly wouldn't launch a deliberate attack IMHO.  

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2 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

It turns out cocky05d comment "following a vicious and uncalled for critque of my painting skills and technique"

which refers to this thread

 

was meant to be tongue in cheek, as posted on my  profile

 

here's what I posted

"

I'd suggest the green was dark, but your model I'm afraid just looks wrong, as the disruptive pattern is blocks of solid colour,  especially if you imagine infield painting, (see below)   you do get more solid blocks later, but that  I believe is the 'ambush camouflage"   (which is quite complex and late war, google will expain  more) 

 

I''d try to explain, because there was massive variation in the  way German tanks got painted..

http://www.panzerworld.com/german-armor-camouflage

 

 

 

 

here's some  Stug pics,  note the wide variations in style,  

 

stugcol.jpg

 

stug4_1.jpg

 

 

 

stug-iii-f-5.jpg

 

stug-iii-f-8-1.jpg

 

 

 

26139338424_6ac81229c9_b.jpg

 

what the article does not was that spray guns were fairly common, and tanks had a compressed air outlet IIRC, but think of how wide a line spray a full size spray will produce,  the side skits of 323 show what is maybe the maximum width.

try to imagine being told to paint a real tank with a spray gun, (or a brush!), and how you'd  do it,and how big the spray pattern would be...  and then look the above pics

 

Probably a bit late.... but I hope of interest, though some careful tight spraying with  some of the dark yellow could be a a possible way to break  up the blocks of colour?

I mean, it could have been done like that, but maybe go up to a truck and imagine applying a disruptive pattern

 

I'm not very up on German vehicle camouflage,  but the idea that crews were given paint and told to do it themselves struck me as surprisingly anarchic for the Nazis,,,, but when you start looking at pictures, (rather than models or guessing) the massive variation become obvious.

 

have a google for images for more  on this. I only found a few Stugs showing camo clearly,(above)  ,but given their role, camo was important.

note also they would commonly use netting and cut trees/shrubs as well, 

 

The model looks very well built,  so the above is meant to be helpful, rather than negative, and, yes, I think some weathering in needed.

 

HTH

T

PS I believe that tools on the tank got sprayed with the basecolour as well, something I saw on youtuube I can't find,but here's a vid on weathering a Stug which be of use,  but does show tools painted base colour and then weathered.

"

 

Looking at other models posted (not  just the Stug)  I'd stand by my comments,  they look like models,  as the painting just looks overscale,  which was my main point,

for example

hzrOD3Y.jpg

 

the green squiggle here,  would be very difficult for a 1/35th man with a spraygun to do! 

for comparison

26139338424_6ac81229c9_b.jpg

 

Though if you did a model like this without the photo I'm sure some folks would think it  looked badly done!

 

 I added the above as I thought the Stug (and now the others) are very  well constructed, and the paint finish is excellent.

 

The post I quote took sometime to do, and was really meant to be constructive and helpful, I hoped it would be understood that I am NOT telling Cocky05d what to  do,  

 You will note I  did suggest adding more dunkel gelb to break up the other colours as a simpler solution.

 

On the colours used,  given the nature  of application,  using different shades of dark green and red brown, either different paint types or adjusting the  base  colours,  though some of  this can be achieved with weathering , filters etc, would give a better effect over a series of models.

 

cheers

T

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi ,my remark about vicious and uncalled for was meant as a joke ,i sent you a message yesterday saying that ,i am grateful for all you trouble you took on my behalf .

Anyway just finished giving them a coat of dark yellow .

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1 hour ago, SleeperService said:

@cocky05d I've seen much worse, mainly on my built shelf ;)

 

I'd suggest thickening up the camouflage colours but no more. It looks like you have an issue with decal film on a couple. Either polish the paint or put gloss varnish on where the decals go, then matt overall when done. I find it easier to weather over a varnish coat as it's more consistent than several paint colours.

 

Regarding German tools the wire cutters had dark red handles ALL tools were either Panzer grey or Dark Yellow. They may or may not have camouflage over them. At least that's what everybody has told me.

 

Weather or not?...That's your preference I've just finished my first ever weathering which I'll post soon but found a lot of help here.

 

Troy is a decent bloke but, like everybody, can be misunderstood on the Interweb. I think people think of it as talking whereas it's more like writing letters. He certainly wouldn't launch a deliberate attack IMHO.  

Hi ,just replied to Troy saying my remarks about vicious and uncalled for was meant as a joke,i agree people can misunderstand  things said on the interweb .

I am sure is a decent chap .he makes models ,always the sign of a upright fellow :D.

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I am never happy with any of my models. That is to say, I AM happy with them for a while, but by the time I've finished the next model I'll look back at the previous ones and think they are 'poor' or even 'rubbish.'

This is because with every model my skills improve. I push myself to try out new techniques with every new model. One day I'll master them all and produce something approaching that of my teen idol, Francois Verlinden.

 

As a teen I used to 'blow up' my older models, intending to use them as wreckage in a diorama, and so by the time I gave up I had only one completed model left, and that was my last, an SdKfz 222 in DAK colours. It sits in my parent's loft under a cover and it still looks quite good. When I returned to model-making, nearly two years ago, I was determined not to trash any of my models. If I ruined one with bad painting/weathering. I'd repaint them.

I realised that by repainting them I could refine and improve my techniques without having to purchase another model. Whether the repainted model was any better for it, or not, wasn't the issue, but they actually were better.

I had one case where I built, painted and heavily weathered a Nashorn to completion and then decided to add snow and frost to it. To cut a long story short, the hairspray and bicarb of soda reacted badly with a water based wash I applied and it stripped the layers of varnish and paint back to the plastic. Devastating! But rather than bin the Nashorn and buy another, I realised it was possible to strip the entire model back to the plastic using the bicarb/hairspray/water mix. And that's what I did. An entire model stripped back to the plastic. It took me roughly 50hrs to do!

And then I repainted it, altering the order of processes slightly, and got it looking even better.... until disaster struck again and the damned thing fell apart in my hands!

 

So, do what you want with your models. Repaint them if you aren't happy with them. Leave them be, if you are. Not everyone will like them. We all have different tastes.

 

I do welcome comments on my models/dioramas. There's no point in me posting photos on here if I can't accept the negative comments as well. I'm open to suggestions for improvement. Whether I act on them or not, is up to me.

 

BTW, all of your models look to have been built and painted by the same person. (you, obviously) I think that's a good thing. You have a pronounced 'style'. I don't think I've found my style yet. Every model I build looks like it was built by someone else each time!

 

Rearguards,

Badder

 

 

 

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Wow ,first time someone has said i have a style .For a long time i haven't been happy with the colours i used for the German 3 colour camo ,Tamiya dark green and red brown ,so it is an opportunity to try different paints .

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Just now, cocky05d said:

Wow ,first time someone has said i have a style .For a long time i haven't been happy with the colours i used for the German 3 colour camo ,Tamiya dark green and red brown ,so it is an opportunity to try different paints .

 

I didn't see the models in their previous guise, so I can't comment on those. Looking at the photos here it doesn't appear to me that you do much in the way of weathering using a gloss varnish followed by washes and filters etc. So I'd have thought your 3 colours were quite accurate. If there's any fault in the 'look' of the 3 colours that's down to the Germans bad choices! ;) Not really.  The fact is that the colours are 'true', but look wrong when placed next to each other in the small scale.

Put it this way, close one eye and stand with your nose against the camouflage pattern on a real Tiger tank and you'd only see dark yellow, OR red brown, OR dark green. If your eye was an inch away from the dark yellow the tank would look dark yellow in colour, which is actually quite light, but as you moved back the red brown and dark green would come into view and the tank would darken overall. And when you were a long way away the camo pattern would lose any contrast and kind of merge into an 'average' colour and shade.

 

Now close one eye and press your nose against a 1/35th scale tank but pretend it's a real full sized tank. You will probably still have all 3 colours in your field of view. Move back 1m and now you're a 200m tall giant looking at a full sized tank, from more than 200m away, (Pythagoras' theorem) and yet you can see all 3 colours perfectly... they haven't lost their contrasts, nor merged into a 'average' colour and shade. Repeating myself, but the colours don't look right.

 

There's a scientific term for this effect, but I can't remember what it's called.

 

So here's what I've started doing to compensate.... I lighten my 3 colours. I add a touch of white to Tamiya's Dark Yellow and their Red Brown and a touch of Yellow to their Dark Green. And then I weather my AFV to tone things done further... applying a gloss varnish and washes/filters before a final matt or more frequently now, a satin coat.

 

Sorry for waffling, but it is an interesting topic and I hope I've managed to get the idea over because it's not easy to explain!

 

Rearguards,

Badder

 

 

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Hi ,i find weathering a bit difficult to be honest ,happy with dry brushing ,but washes and filters and shadows and pre shading ,pin washes ,it is all a bit much .

Can't afford all the fancy stuff ,the guy in Longton said it is just basically just oil paint ,got loads of that stuff ,but haven't tried it out yet .

And there are loads of videos on Youtube i have bookmarked ,but haven't got round to watching ,plus second hand modelling mags got a few of them .

Must try harder .:D.

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If I was you, I wouldn't worry too much about getting the colours right. Much of what Badder says is spot on. I know more about neurosurgery that I do about WW2 German colours, but I've seen so many different shades of SCC15 Olive Drab used by British armour, ranging from a very light yellowish green to an olive drab as used by US forces. If you look at the Tamiya mixes given by Mike Starmer for SCC15, you'll see that in it he advocates adding some light grey for scale effect. I usually try to make mine lighter still by increasing the amount of yellow in the mix, because when gloss varnish is applied for decals and washes, it darkens the shade.

You don't have to shell out for expensive washes and filters, you can mix them yourself. Some people use oil paints, while others use enamel. Just use a good quality thinners and mix it with the paint in a ratio of about 95% to 5%. Same with pigments and foliage for camouflage and stones if you need them for a base display. A lot of mine come from the garden.

 

John.

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I've said this before but it applies here as well.

We as modelers go to great lengths to replicate colors, camouflage patterns and intricate weathering. In real life the vehicle may have lasted a month or so, the base colors applied at the factory varied by time period and the field applied camo was painted by a wee weed off private with a spray gun.

A little scale fidelity goes along way. I treat every build as "practice" for the next one. Just have fun. 

 

G

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Thanks for the reply ,i have seen a photo of a German half track ,it looks like the crew used a paint brush to do the camo ,just a few brush strokes ,if you tried doing that for a model it would not look right.

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8 hours ago, cocky05d said:

Hi ,i find weathering a bit difficult to be honest ,happy with dry brushing ,but washes and filters and shadows and pre shading ,pin washes ,it is all a bit much .

Can't afford all the fancy stuff ,the guy in Longton said it is just basically just oil paint ,got loads of that stuff ,but haven't tried it out yet .

And there are loads of videos on Youtube i have bookmarked ,but haven't got round to watching ,plus second hand modelling mags got a few of them .

Must try harder .:D.

As I said before, you've reached a point where you have a distinctive style. It's not a criticism when I say that they all look the 'same'. No, they aren't weathered, they look 'fresh off the production line', but hey, AFVs did come fresh off the production line!

I would suggest that you are at a stage where you SHOULD start weathering your models though. As Bullbasket says, you don't need to spend any extra money on washes. Make your own, in the way he suggests. I'm less inclined to stick to a specific ratio and change the mix depending on not only the model, but also the specific details on that model which I might want to highlight. I will even mix my wash ON the model itself.

 

Start simple, with just a darkish all over wash followed by some selective dry brushing and you'll find that your vehicles will be transformed. Washes aren't difficult, so long as the underlying paint is fully cured and protected by a gloss or satin varnish.

 

Once you are happy with simple all over washes, you can expand into multiple washes with different colours, pin washes and effects such as chipping. But don't try them all together until you are comfortable with each separately. Use an old model and practice these techniques. Have fun, learn, and don't worry about the disasters... disasters teach you more than the successes do!

 

Rearguards,

Badder

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Been in my shed painting ,using Tamiya Nato green and brown on a dark yellow background .I did try using Humbrol weathering gunk on a Tamiya SU85 a while back ,didn't know what to do next ,it turned the whole tank a brownish colour .

I agree a lot of AFVs did last long enough to become a rust bucket  ,and i am sure a form of field punishment in the German army was to repaint or de rust the tanks :D.

Would have been much simpler for us modellers if they had fought WW2 in colour instead of B&W :smile:.

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Just now, cocky05d said:

Would have been much simpler for us modellers if they had fought WW2 in colour instead of B&W :smile:.

Indeed, but the alternative is to paint your models the 'correct' colour, then post B&W photos!

 

When you say you tried 'Humbrol weathering gunk' do you mean their 'weathering powders' or their 'enamel washes'?

 

I don't get on well with their washes. I find their washes 1) A bit smelly. 2) A bit thick 3) Strangely sticky when applied over a gloss acrylic varnish.

They use a different kind of thinner to the one I am used to. I prefer a more 'industrial' thinner and a much thinner wash... more of a dirty thinner than a thin paint! It's easier to remove if overdone, whereas the Humbrol wash is a bit of a pain to remove... well, I think so anyway.

 

I do love their 'weathering powders' though. I use them in many different ways.

I will mix them with thinners and apply them as washes. I will mix them with Decalfix and apply them as pin washes. Decalfix seals the wash in place and makes it much harder to remove, so you can wash over it again without removing it.  And I've even been known to mix them with water and apply them as a kind of 'unsuccessful wash'.

 

Sometimes I will apply them straight to the model with a soft brush and then brush 90 percent of it off, subtly tinting the underlying paint. Or I will apply them directly to specific areas and 'scrub' them hard into the surface with a stiff brush.  And I sometimes apply them thickly to tank tracks and undersides of vehicles then douse them with thinners. Whether I do any of these over an acrylic varnish or not, depends on the effect I wan't. I'm not adverse to using them straight on top of enamel paint, or acrylic paint.

 

Badder

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