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AnonymousDFB1

Mig 21 Single Type Group Build

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Suspect the paint job would take forever!!!!

...the word is: some are using it - instead of drinking beer... ;-)

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...the word is: some are using it - instead of drinking beer... ;-)

"Instead of"? Surely "as well as" would make more sense? :beer:

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But it's not till next year :confused:

I did notice that (eventually). But I'm really, really slow builder so the schedule will be challenging in any case.

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Might be of some interest to some, I just picked up my copy of "Model Aircraft". From the same guys who do "Scale Aviation Modeller International", just with a blue cover and with an F/B-111 on the cover. Anyhow, their profile thingy this month is the MiG-21, some very nice schemes in there. Just thought someone might be insterested.

Kind Regards

Dazz

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What a nightmare!

I was set on building three, all built or converted from the Zvezda Mig-21bis.

1. Mig-21PF Egyption Air Force 1969.

2. Mig-21MF Syrian Air Force 1982

3. Mig-21bis scheme to be decided.

But now I've seen a stripy scheme for a North Vietnamese Mig-21PFM. Given that I've recently built a stripy FW-190, a stripy F9F and a stripy F4U, there's no way I can pass up a stripy Mig! :lol:

I've also found a very attractive scheme for a Cuban -bis so I might end up building four... :mental:

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What a nightmare!

I was set on building three, all built or converted from the Zvezda Mig-21bis.

1. Mig-21PF Egyption Air Force 1969.

2. Mig-21MF Syrian Air Force 1982

3. Mig-21bis scheme to be decided.

But now I've seen a stripy scheme for a North Vietnamese Mig-21PFM. Given that I've recently built a stripy FW-190, a stripy F9F and a stripy F4U, there's no way I can pass up a stripy Mig! :lol:

I've also found a very attractive scheme for a Cuban -bis so I might end up building four... :mental:

the stripy one the stripy one!!!!!!!!! :D

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the stripy one the stripy one!!!!!!!!! :D

Definitely the stripy one!

Really looking forward to this GB now.

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A note that might be of some relevance for few people involved in this GB:

Since the team working on Arab MiGs Volume 5 (which is planned for publishing in September or October 2014) is presently starting the work on coverage of the 1973 Arab-Israeli War, we 'can't avoid' entering such topics like an Egyptian MiG-21F-13 (and then, apparently, one of 30 Czechoslovak-built examples) with three kill markings, or an Iraqi MiG-21MF with two kill markings (one for an Israeli Mirage, claimed in 1973, and one for an Iranian F-4E Phantom, claimed in 1980).

While we've got most of the details about them, the research about these two aircraft is still going on. Given we've got quite specific references regarding a number of other 'Mirage/Phantom killers' (especially an Egyptian MiG-21PFM that got at least one - confirmed - Mirage kill during the War of Attrition), I'm confident we'll get more precise details on the two-above mentioned examples (than available so far) too.

So, if anybody might be curious to build such 21s, let me know.

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That would be tempting.......though the splinter 21 will keep me busy!

Off subject, just read the book on the IIAF F-14's, amazing, lots of stuff I didn't know about, am very tempted now for the Tomcat II GB. Well Done! :thumbsup:

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With the old Fujimi 'Jay Fighter' boxing of their MiG-21 having sat in my stash since new in the early 90s this sounds a good idea. Always wanted to model it in-flight and launching one of the AA-2 missiles and take advantage of one of the two Iraqi or the Syrian combat veterans offered in the decal sheet. I'd like to double-check their authenticity with you Tom as we get closer to the start of this GB if that's alright with you?

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Thx Rich.

Slightly off topic: 'guess you might then like some of this stuff too...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okkRmj-De2Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcIlibsl2R0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvlsiTUli2s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFnSJnzIM8I

Perhaps some 'motivating takes' there?

**********

Col,

I'm happy to help.

And since I have few minutes left for my final smoke of the day... here few things about Fujimi's 'Jay Fighter':

- The camo pattern there (red-brown and sand) is definitely wrong, serial too.

- Serial that looks like 'JAY' actually reads 681. Now, despite all the search over the years, I really have no clue from where has Fujimi (or anybody else) got its 'reference material' for that aircraft. But, one thing is sure: applying such a camo pattern and such a serial on any Iraqi MiG-21MF or MiG-21bis (I do not recall what is Fujimi claiming that modell to represent: MF or bis?), is completely wrong.

Namely, from 1931 (establishment of the Iraqi Air Force), until 1988, the IrAF was applying serials on its aircraft in order of their delivery. So, the first ever Iraqi military aircraft was a deHavilland DH.60 serialled '1', the second was DH.60 '2'....'394' was the first Hunter (F.Mk 6) ever delivered to Iraq (because that was 394th military aircraft received by the IrAF) etc. Correspondingly, '681' was one of 20 MiG-21FLs delivered starting in late 1966 (oh, and keep in mind: these were actually early PFMs, but Iraqis called them 'FL' because of influence of their Indian instructors; otherwise, 'FL' was 'Type 77' - and as such manufactured for or in India only).

These planes served most of their career with No. 17 Squadron, which acted as FTU for all future Iraqi MiG-21-pilots, and thus saw little combat. Although I know one of No. 17 Squadron's FLs that scored a confirmed kill against an IRIAF F-4E, in September 1980, this happened quite close to that unit's contemporary base outside Tikrit, deep inside Iraq. However, generally, these MiG-21s were very old by that time, and thus flown rarealy. Plus, they never ventured anywhere close to the Iranian border - while Iranian F-14s very seldom flew into Iraqi airspace. So, I somehow doubt that 'JAY' ever met '3-6020', like depicted on Fujimi's cover...

(Funny point here: certain Russian author, let's call him 'YG', saw somewhere some model of an 'Iraqi Su-7B' with serial 681 from Fujimi's box glued on it, and promptly declared that there was an Iraqi Su-7 with such serial, in one of his books :rolleyes: ).

Regarding paints: Iraqi MiG-21FLs were originally delivered in 'natural metall overall' (roughly similar to FS17178 for modellers, but in reality this consisted of two layers of clear lacquer with 5 and 8 percent of aluminium powder, respectivelly, applied directly over 'bare metall'). Some have got something like an 'anti-glare panel' applied in matt black over the entire cover of their avionics bay (see the cover artwork on Arab MiGs Volume 3, but this was rather an exception from the rule. They have received camo colours (BS381C/388 beige and BS381C/283 green) on top surfaces around the times of the October 1973 Arab-Israeli War only. However, I never saw a single photo (or ever heard) of any Iraqi MiG-21s painted in sand and brown, so I doubt that detail too.

Anyway, if you want to build that Fujimi MiG-21 into something authentic, there are some 'striking' camo patterns, no problem - and some 'remarkable' aircraft. Especially so if Fujimi's kit should depict a MiG-21MF. Just for example, 'the most famous Arab MiG-21' in my opinion was a certain IrAF MiG-21 with a kill marking for an Israeli Mirage from October 1973 War and a kill marking for an Iranian Phantom from September 1980.

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Tom, first of all can I say a big thank you for taking the time to reply in such detail and secondly I'll just say oh dear Fujimi :fraidnot:

From what I can recall the Fujimi kit is closer to a Bis than MF but my MiG-21 sub-type knowledge is rather rusty. There's always plastic card, filler, files, etc. So the schemes are a work of fiction on a par with some of the other stories made up about Soviet subjects? I did read you cover issues with the depictions of Arab colour schemes in another thread but can't for the life of me find it now. Am I right in thinking Arab MiGs Vol. 4 is where you cover later models of the 21?

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I'm a former modeller, so I very much share the passion of 'finding the last detail'. Actually, I started researching and writing because - between others - I wanted to build such planes like Iranian F-4s and Pakistani F-104s, back in the 1970s - but couldn't find any kind of useful source of reference (these were true 'rarities' back then: everybody was building Spitfires, Hurricanes and Tempests; only a few found at least Hunter or Lightning for 'interesting').

So, Fujimi kit is a bis, acting like MF? Guess, you'll have a lot to do with the front fuselage and intake then, because - AFAIK - this is entirely wrong. It's an outright tragedy that even as of 2013, one of best 1:72 MiG-21MF kits is the KP's old one...

Otherwise, re-modelling the spin of a MiG-21bis to that of MF (or versa-vice) is - AFAIK - no big deal.

Re. later mark MiG-21s and Arab MiGs series: the answer to your question is 'somewhere in between'. It is so that Algeria, Egypt, Iraq and Syria began ordering - and receiving - MiG-21FLs and MiG-21PFMs already in 1966. Quite a few of these were flown in combat during June 1967 War. However, when the Soviets started delivering replacements in the days after that war (foremost to Egypt, less so to Syria, and none to others), they were delivering older MiG-21PFs, though 'upgraded' to MiG-21PFM-similar standard through installation of housing for braking-parachute on the base of the fin, SPS-flaps etc., and designated 'MiG-21PFS'.

Because the Soviets were involved in detente with the West at that time, they didn't want 'the Arabs' to achieve ability to start a war with Israel. Correspondingly, Moscow was extremely reluctant to deliver more advanced armament for most of period between 1967 and 1970. It was only after Soviet MiG-21s arrived in Egypt in February-March 1970 - these were MiG-21SMs (2nd+ generation) - that MiG-21Rs, and then 3rd gen MiG-21MFs were offered to Arabs as well.

That's why most of Arab MiGs Vol.4 - which is covering the period 1967-1970 - is still describing ops of earlier, '2nd generation' MiG-21s (like F-13s, PFS', FLs, and PFMs). Difference is: as used in period 1967-1970, these aircraft were camouflaged, which was not the case with aircraft used during periods described in Vols 1, 2 and 3.

The next Volume (5) is to become the first of two to cover October 1973 War, and that was when all the MiGs were camouflaged, and there were already plenty of MFs in service.

It seems that Ethiopia was the first export customer for MiG-21bis variant outside the Warsaw Pact: it received its first bis' in November/December 1977, and deployed them in combat against Somalia already two months later. But, Ethiopia is a different story (no 'Arabs' and that country received wholehearted Soviet support). Indeed, because Egypt broke its relations to Moscow in period 1974-1976, it never received any bis (nor launched domestic production of MFs, as planned). That's why the first war in which this variant was deployed in combat by 'Arabs' was Lebanon (Syrian MiG-21bis' in September 1979), followed by Iran-Iraq War (September 1980).

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Hmm, thank you again Tom, can see I need to refamiliarise myself with the differences between the various MiG-21 sub-types and also what is offered in the Fujimi kit then decide which nation to depict before this GB starts. The politics and international games that occured around this era is certainly a complicated matter but makes for interesting reading when presented by someone such as yourself who not only understands the subject but can also explain it in a clear and consise manner to laymen such as myself.

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Here's a nice graphic table of MiG-21 type differences that I have always found instructive.

Source: "Mikoyan MiG-21" by Bill Gunston (1987 reprint); Osprey Air Combat-series. ISBN 0-8545-652-5.

MiG-21table-1_zpsef547cfd.jpg

MiG-21table-2_zps85155ae4.jpg

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Here's a nice graphic table of MiG-21 type differences that I have always found instructive.

Source: "Mikoyan MiG-21" by Bill Gunston (1987 reprint); Osprey Air Combat-series. ISBN 0-8545-652-5.

This reference is old and there are plenty of inaccuracies: what's a MiG-21SMB, where's the camera fairing of the MiG-21RF, what are those weird reconnaissance pods, etc ?

Currently the best MiG-21 reference book is...

mikoyan-mig-21-fishbed-livre-warpaint-se

It's a really great book

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This reference is old and there are plenty of inaccuracies: what's a MiG-21SMB, where's the camera fairing of the MiG-21RF, what are those weird reconnaissance pods, etc ?

Currently the best MiG-21 reference book is...

It's a really great book

...excuse me for trying to contribute actively... :P

So - your way to contribute is... defecate all over those daring to contribute without perfect sources and then proclaiming the one and only "true" source of info!?!?

It would have been far more useful to tell us EXACTLY what's wrong (in your opinion) thus letting others

1)use the correct info in the table

2)Avoiding its errors.

Instead what you do is just proclaiming that this or that book is excellent (again your opinion). It could eventually be of some use - if

a)Your opinion is of some value... last I checked nobody had made you "god" with an infallibility clause

B) The people in this thread feel like buying a book... some can't afford it, most don't give enough of a damn to go out and spend money on this subject.

The Warpaint series, while interesting (I have most of these) is seldom the source of the "only and sole truth". Most of its books are of indifferent quality - so forgive me if I don't bow down to your book choice. I haven't got it thus I haven't read it... so I have no opinion in the matter.

By the way - the "SBS" is a (failed) attempt to describe the SMT... Before the fall of the USSR (1992) recon pods were a contentious matter - given the secret traditionally surrounding this equipment everywhere. That of course has influenced the errors in the RF type.

M. Negative Help: you should moderate your (religious) fervor and maybe share with us peasants some of your infinite knowledge... in a different form than just shouting "It's wrong it's wrong and this is the source of salvation"! It's not very useful and mostly it irritates people and penalizes the effort to be of help to other modelers.

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...excuse me for trying to contribute actively... :P

So - your way to contribute is... defecate all over those daring to contribute without perfect sources and then proclaiming the one and only "true" source of info!?!?

It would have been far more useful to tell us EXACTLY what's wrong (in your opinion) thus letting others

1)use the correct info in the table

2)Avoiding its errors.

Instead what you do is just proclaiming that this or that book is excellent (again your opinion). It could eventually be of some use - if

a)Your opinion is of some value... last I checked nobody had made you "god" with an infallibility clause

B) The people in this thread feel like buying a book... some can't afford it, most don't give enough of a damn to go out and spend money on this subject.

The Warpaint series, while interesting (I have most of these) is seldom the source of the "only and sole truth". Most of its books are of indifferent quality - so forgive me if I don't bow down to your book choice. I haven't got it thus I haven't read it... so I have no opinion in the matter.

By the way - the "SBS" is a (failed) attempt to describe the SMT... Before the fall of the USSR (1992) recon pods were a contentious matter - given the secret traditionally surrounding this equipment everywhere. That of course has influenced the errors in the RF type.

M. Negative Help: you should moderate your (religious) fervor and maybe share with us peasants some of your infinite knowledge... in a different form than just shouting "It's wrong it's wrong and this is the source of salvation"! It's not very useful and mostly it irritates people and penalizes the effort to be of help to other modelers.

I believe that I know a little about the MiG-21. In 10 years I've bought and read many English-text books about it: the Osprey you've scanned the drawings from, Yefim Gordon's Aerofax and Famous Russian Aircraft books, the Squadron-Signal books, the Apali book about the Finnish MiG-21, etc. I've discussed with guys (Russians, Hungarians, etc) who know the aircraft. I've cross-related the infos of these books, found many ambiguities and vague infos even in Gordon's book. Everything that I've read in the MiG-21 Warpaint book appears well researched and the infos are coherent. I'm no god and I don't give a damn of how you consider me.

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I believe that I know a little about the MiG-21. In 10 years I've bought and read many English-text books about it: the Osprey you've scanned the drawings from, Yefim Gordon's Aerofax and Famous Russian Aircraft books, the Squadron-Signal books, the Apali book about the Finnish MiG-21, etc. I've discussed with guys (Russians, Hungarians, etc) who know the aircraft. I've cross-related the infos of these books, found many ambiguities and vague infos even in Gordon's book. Everything that I've read in the MiG-21 Warpaint book appears well researched and the infos are coherent. I'm no god and I don't give a damn of how you consider me.

I see... how sad.

You are not interested about helping other modelers and their interests and having a good time with them - just stroking your own ego. :blink:

I am not ignorant in MiG-21 matters - you are not alone in researching this subject... I just think that helping other modelers get info on a modeling project goes BEFORE representing myself as the be-all and end-all of MiG-21 lore. When are you going to share your ineffable expertise with the other modelers!?

I guess all the research and bragging about it doesn't leave you any time to scan useful material for others as I did. :P

By the way - the "I don't give a damn" part was superfluous since you have already made abundantly clear that your social skills are somewhat lacking...

Have a nice day anyhow... bye bye... B)

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Riiiggghht, moving swiftly on... a bit of research throws up a few issues with the MiG-21 as Fujimi boxed it. First of all it best represents a bis regardless of what's written on the box be it R, MF, or bis. The second issue I've found mention of is an inaccurate cockpit shape but a search for photos will hopefully allow me to crosscheck that. Third thing is oversized main wheels and shallow u/c bays but my intention to model it in-flight neatly side-steps that. Fourth problem is the kit fuselage being 5mm too long around the engine access/transport joint so perhaps the hacksaw gets to play on this one. Fifth fault I've seen mentioned is the tailplanes have insufficient sweep and chord is too shallow at the tip therefore need to be replaced. Finally some of the schemes and decals are the work of fiction.

Hmm, wonder what other MiG-21 kits are available...

Edited by Col.

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I see... how sad.

You are not interested about helping other modelers and their interests and having a good time with them - just stroking your own ego. :blink:

... BWAHAHAHAH... will you being my shrink please ?

BEFORE representing myself as the be-all and end-all of MiG-21 lore. When are you going to share your ineffable expertise with the other modelers!?

It's funny but I don't remember writing that I was a MiG-21 guru. I could consider M. Trendafilovski as one but I'm sure he wouldn't appreciate it.

When they'll ask ?

I guess all the research and bragging about it doesn't leave you any time to scan useful material for others as I did. :P

Sure. Scanning material of an outdated book is really helping the community.

Pretty good R, bis, UM drawings: http://airwar.ru/other/draw/mig21-2.html

Mid-life PFS: http://airwar.ru/other/draw/mig21pfm.html

By the way - the "I don't give a damn" part was superfluous since you have already made abundantly clear that your social skills are somewhat lacking...

Wow. How clairvoyant you are. You see right through me...

Have a nice day anyhow... bye bye... B)

Ciao ciao.

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The second issue I've found mention of is an inaccurate cockpit shape but a search for photos will hopefully allow me to crosscheck that.

It has been mentioned elsewhere on BM (in answer to a question of mine which I now can't find... :banghead: ) that the Fujimi canopy has a constant cross-sectional area from front to back, whereas the real thing was wider at the front than the rear. There is a Quickboost spine and fin available to correct the -bis type spine in the kit, but it is too wide at the front so as to match the kits incorrect canopy.

Finally some of the schemes and decals are the work of fiction.

Hmm, wonder what other MiG-21 kits are available...

I'd be tempted to use the national insignia from the decals but do some research into accurate schemes.

Zvezda do a very nice - and inexpensive - Mig-21bis. All of my builds in this GB will utilise it as a base. For the MF build, I will be using the Quickboost spine and fin with a judicious amount of sanding at the front end to match the cross section of the Zvezda canopy.

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Riiiggghht, moving swiftly on... a bit of research throws up a few issues with the MiG-21 as Fujimi boxed it. First of all it best represents a bis regardless of what's written on the box be it R, MF, or bis. The second issue I've found mention of is an inaccurate cockpit shape but a search for photos will hopefully allow me to crosscheck that. Third thing is oversized main wheels and shallow u/c bays but my intention to model it in-flight neatly side-steps that. Fourth problem is the kit fuselage being 5mm too long around the engine access/transport joint so perhaps the hacksaw gets to play on this one. Fifth fault I've seen mentioned is the tailplanes have insufficient sweep and chord is too shallow at the tip therefore need to be replaced. Finally some of the schemes and decals are the work of fiction.

Hmm, wonder what other MiG-21 kits are available...

Fujimi (any boxings)

- windscreen: inaccurate framing and when looking its side you seen that it "goes into the nose" à la MiG-29

- canopy: the canopy is cylindrical while it should be bubble-shape when seen from the top. The rear frame should be narrower than the front frame but since it isn't, there's no "spine pinch" behind the canopy and the front of the spine part is way too wide

- the fuselage wheel well bulges are not aligned to the wheel wells

- the reconnaissance pod and fuel tanks are inaccurate in size and features

- only the rear airbrake can be represented lowered but there's no option to lower the front airbrakes

- other issues that you've raised

The best MiG-21bis available is the Zvezda kit. It's cheaper, more accurate and better detailed. Since Eduard has not downscaled their 1/48 kits, IMHO the best way to do a S/M/SM/MF/R would be to rework the spine and spine/fin junction of a Zvezda bis.

It has been mentioned elsewhere on BM (in answer to a question of mine which I now can't find... :banghead: ) that the Fujimi canopy has a constant cross-sectional area from front to back, whereas the real thing was wider at the front than the rear.

It's not impossible that its the guy with the ego problems and no social life who told you that.

Edited by Laurent

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Anyone want to buy a Fujimi MiG-21 kit? Going cheap. :(

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