Mig 21 Single Type Group Build

[Enzo the Magnificent]

Who is going to build one of these?

http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/models/aircraft/MIG-21.html

[trickyrich]

Who is going to build one of these?

http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/models/aircraft/MIG-21.html

I think you should for the Non-injection Moulded GB........I don't remember seeing your name on the list.............either that or I wasn't wearing my glasses!

ok ok....I wasn't wearing my glasses...plus I spelt you name wrong! I still think you should build one though!

[Bonehammer]

I have some OEZ MiG-21s left from a time when the Eduard kit was a naughty twinkle in the eye of the mould maker, and a plan for making the most of them.

OTOH I'm also known for never having reached the painting stage on any model that I built in the past 10 years.

Would you bear with me if I join?

[SaintsPhil]

I have some OEZ MiG-21s left from a time when the Eduard kit was a naughty twinkle in the eye of the mould maker, and a plan for making the most of them.

OTOH I'm also known for never having reached the painting stage on any model that I built in the past 10 years.

Would you bear with me if I join?

You're more than welcome!

To be fair with my DIY schedule I might struggle to finish for the GB deadline, but it's the taking part that counts right....

[Tom Cooper]

Hi Tom!

Which book is the 1000 pages "bible"? I'd like to know in order to avoid expending a lot money in a flawed source of info.

BTW I love your "Arab Mig" books! Why not do a wider scope book on the rest of the equipment?

I'm going to build n Egyptian Mi-6 based on your pictures of its cammo before the June 1967 war... Were these helos painted at the factory with Soviet cammo paints before delivery? In that case - are there any reliable sources about the colours used?

TIA Eduardo Mitchell

Hi Eduardo,

thanks, glad to hear you like Arab MiGs as much.

Let me start with UARAF Mi-6s: haven't researched that much about them, but given the Egyptians were not camouflaging their aircraft as of the mid-1960s, I doubt it was camouflaged there. I.e. most likely, the camo was applied already before delivery. What is known about their shades is provided in appendix with artworks of Arab MiGs Volume 3. Sadly, I really have no more clue about them.

The 'bible' I mentioned is Y. G.'s massive work 'recommended' few pages back: text is basically the same like in Aerofax book, 'expanded' through addition of piles of useless content 'scanned' from the internet or lifted from various recent publications, selected along 'author's' predilection: flashy and appearing authoritative through an apparent mass of data, photos (many of these lifted) and artworks (many based on science fiction), but so full of mistakes that it's ultimately useless.

Finally, you asked 'why not do a wider scope book on the rest of the equipment?'

I'm not into 'aircraft monographies'. My core interest are 'obscure' air forces, their equipment, personnel, and their combat experiences (i.e. 'campaigns'). So, if my publications are dealing with 'MiGs', then primarily because such air forces were most often equipped with MiGs, while there is an obvious need to research, write and publish about them (since there is nobody else doing that). It's for precisely for that reason that I recently 'ended' researching about Zimbabweans and their experiences with Hawks, just for example.

That said, one of coming volumes of Arab MiGs is going to contain a large 'appendix' prepared by well-known German MiG-21-researcher (and former ex-East German AF MiG-21-technician), Holger Müller. This is going to provide a full review of MiG-21-variants and their most important equipment (avionics, weapons etc.) delivered to various Arab air forces, known production figures (something that people like Y G should have done, actually, instead of lifting from Western publications all the time), then a cross-examination of the type 'how many of what variants were or - when this is not precisely known - could have been delivered to what Arab air forces during what period of time' etc.

[MichaelSatin]

Another reference question.

In preparation for the great build, I'm actually doing some reading about the -21. Looking at my rather meager store of resources I have two main books that I believe are related; Bill Guston's Osprey Air Combat book (the olive green one) from 1986 and the Aerofax book from 1996 by Gunston and Yefim Gordon. Which has better and more accurate general information?

Looking forward to the build. I seem to be firming up on the 1/48 Eduard SMT at this time, with bare metal finish and 296 IAP markings from the kit.

Michael

[Tom Cooper]

When it comes to technical details, the Aerofax book is perfectly sufficient for nearly everything you might want to build in regards of the MiG-21. This, primarily because of quite good line-drawings of different variants. That is also about the only of his works to this topic (MiG-21) that can - and then for this reason alone - be something like frankly 'recommended'.

The problems emerge when it comes to painting and adding decals. Namely, the crucial issue with all of Y G's books is: 'his' chapters on Soviet/Russian aircraft in foreign service, especially in service outside Europe, are usually full of - often incredible - mistakes. So even in the Aerofax book, where - for example - you can find a photo of a Bulgarian MiG-21R presented as in service with Bosnian Serbs (the later never operated any MiG-21s). Similarly, the figures for numbers of MiG-21s delivered and variants operated as cited there are almost entirely based on obsolete Western publications.

The background of this entire issue is that - contrary to legends usually spread in the public - he has no admission to any kind of official Russian archives, and especially not those of MIG RSK, the former Soviet Air Force/s, or any of authorities responsible for arms exports. Actually, except for lifting much of TASS photo archives (back in the late 1980s), except for lifting from plenty of Russian publications entirely unknown in the West, and - since the mid-1990s - also lifting from plenty of little-known Western publications, he's not 'researching' at all (except one wants to describe the work of his team of 'ghostwriters' that are 'scanning internet & new printed publications' and then 'selecting information along their own predilection' for 'researching'). Correspondingly, he simply can't know (nor really cares to find out) how many aircraft were delivered during the Soviet times to what foreign customer. At least not until somebody else publishes something to corresponding topics. And because of this, while his publications are full of (supposedly) 'exclusive' photos, majority are showing prototypes only, but hardly ever any Soviet AF aircraft 'in operations' (unless they were taken by TASS for PR purposes). In the case of exported aircraft, majority of photos have been lifted from publications by other people (i.e. without any kind of permission of other authors or photographers), and without the necessary knowledge or understanding for 'local' circumstances (i.e. air forces in question). Many of lists of serials for MiGs exported to the Middle East and Africa are largely consisting of science fiction (as far as not based on Scramble, for example, even though Scramble's data-base is also far from even '80% perfect' in case of many of such air forces).

The situation is actually a mix of commedy and tragedy, then there is actually so much left to be researched about Soviet aviation industry, different aircraft types, Soviet air force/s etc. But, the 'Saint' has taken care most of potential competition to be kept well away from Western publishers (majority of which is meanwhile refusing to work with him too, primarily because of plenty of plagiarisation and complaints about lifted photos). And thus, even the artists drawing artworks for 'his' books can't do much more but copy colour profiles drawn by somebody else (often 'to the last dot and comma', and at least as often including all possible errors)...

Otherwise, Gerard Paloque's MiG-21: Fishbed (clicky!), is a far better (and much more sincere) source of reference for so many different camouflage pattersn worn by the type around the world.

Alternativelly, those that don't mind foreign languages (or speak them), and are looking for 'interesting camo patterns and markings' of European air forces that are operating (or have operated) MiG-21s, might prefer such books like recently published 'MiG-21' (clicky!) by Holger Müller.

[gary from darwin]

I will be in. Got about 5 to choose from. Time to start deciding as it's not to far away

Gary

[Radleigh]

I gotta enter this even if I don't finish, love Mig-21's...!

Sadly I didn't realise this starts in just over a week or so, and I still don't have a kit. Getting one in time is also very unlikely!

[MichaelSatin]

Tom,

Thanks for the info! I really wasn't too concerned about the painting/markings issue in this instance, there isn't much of it in the Aerofax book anyway. I'm planning on mostly sticking to Eduard kit options (and as I'm doing a bare metal bird for this build, I'm not too worried about correct colors!) Background information is really what I want, so it looks like that book will do.

Michael

[Moggy]

Hi Eduardo,

thanks, glad to hear you like Arab MiGs as much.

Let me start with UARAF Mi-6s: haven't researched that much about them, but given the Egyptians were not camouflaging their aircraft as of the mid-1960s, I doubt it was camouflaged there. I.e. most likely, the camo was applied already before delivery. What is known about their shades is provided in appendix with artworks of Arab MiGs Volume 3. Sadly, I really have no more clue about them.

The 'bible' I mentioned is Y. G.'s massive work 'recommended' few pages back: text is basically the same like in Aerofax book, 'expanded' through addition of piles of useless content 'scanned' from the internet or lifted from various recent publications, selected along 'author's' predilection: flashy and appearing authoritative through an apparent mass of data, photos (many of these lifted) and artworks (many based on science fiction), but so full of mistakes that it's ultimately useless.

Finally, you asked 'why not do a wider scope book on the rest of the equipment?'

I'm not into 'aircraft monographies'. My core interest are 'obscure' air forces, their equipment, personnel, and their combat experiences (i.e. 'campaigns'). So, if my publications are dealing with 'MiGs', then primarily because such air forces were most often equipped with MiGs, while there is an obvious need to research, write and publish about them (since there is nobody else doing that). It's for precisely for that reason that I recently 'ended' researching about Zimbabweans and their experiences with Hawks, just for example.

That said, one of coming volumes of Arab MiGs is going to contain a large 'appendix' prepared by well-known German MiG-21-researcher (and former ex-East German AF MiG-21-technician), Holger Müller. This is going to provide a full review of MiG-21-variants and their most important equipment (avionics, weapons etc.) delivered to various Arab air forces, known production figures (something that people like Y G should have done, actually, instead of lifting from Western publications all the time), then a cross-examination of the type 'how many of what variants were or - when this is not precisely known - could have been delivered to what Arab air forces during what period of time' etc.

Hi Tom!

Thank you very much for your careful, informative and well thought answer. I had a feeling about the Mi-6 that it might prove to be as you told me - painted at soviet factory! So now I'll have to find out what kind of "sand" & "spinach" was in use in the Soviet Union at the time...

The MiG-21 books I'm using are the Aerofax, the two 4+ and the MiG-21 book from Planes & pilots... the one you recommended Add to that your Arab MiGs books and a lot of (well illustrated) articles from Air International, Air Enthusiast, Le Fana, Aviatsiya i Vremya and a slew of articles and books mainly in Russian. I have a few older books made obsolete by access to better sources after 1992 - as it was rudely and quite uninformatively pointed out to me by some "guru du jour"... There are lots of photos floating around the Internet to check airframe details...

Your books have a carefully researched historical content not available anywhere else - so they are THE source for modellers with an interest in Middle Eastern Arab hardware. Is the appendix by Herr Müller going to appear in the next "Arab MiGs" book?

BTW - dare one ask for your opinion on YG latest Hikoki book on Soviet hardware in the ME?

Thank you again for your informative reply, Eduardo Mitchell

[Laurent]

What Holger Müller said about the Warpaint book recommended by the "guru du jour"

Thank you for your book recommendation. Of course :-) I already got the
Warpaint series MiG-21 book (though it is not yet listed on my website). You
are right, the author did a good job, especially regarding the Mi-21 in
Yugoslav service. Please keep me informed about any new publication on topic
you see.

[Max Headroom]

1st February?

Better prepare then.

Trevor

[SaintsPhil]

1st February?

Better prepare then.

Trevor

Not long now!

[Enzo the Magnificent]

Not long now!

[Anthony Kesterton]

If I might dip a tentative toe into the icy water that is a Group Build - I would like to add an Angolan Mig-21 to the list. Plan to build the Eduard kit - and build the Mig21 bis C340 now on display in a museum in South Africa.

anthony

[charley420]

Ooh this might be a reason to build my bunny fighter and mongol kits

[Enzo the Magnificent]

If I might dip a tentative toe into the icy water that is a Group Build

come on in! The water's lovely!

[SaintsPhil]

If I might dip a tentative toe into the icy water that is a Group Build - I would like to add an Angolan Mig-21 to the list. Plan to build the Eduard kit - and build the Mig21 bis C340 now on display in a museum in South Africa.

anthony

Welcome! Look forward to seeing an Angolan Mig, something different

[Stephen]

I'm in with an eduard MiG-21, not sure which one yet.

Stephen

[Tom Cooper]

Tom,

Thanks for the info! I really wasn't too concerned about the painting/markings issue in this instance, there isn't much of it in the Aerofax book anyway. I'm planning on mostly sticking to Eduard kit options (and as I'm doing a bare metal bird for this build, I'm not too worried about correct colors!) Background information is really what I want, so it looks like that book will do.

Michael

Hi Michael,

even 'metall' painted birds were not that simple: there were at least three different sorts of 'metall' paints applied on them, depending on specific pannels (including aluminium-silver, magnesium and burned metall, if my memory serves me right). Yoav Efrati once did a very nice article on that ex-Iraqi MiG-21F-13 in Israeli service (I think this was published in SAMI, some 4-5 years ago), with a perfect description in this regards.

Eduardo,

at the 'second look', I'd say that BS381C/388 beige with a solid touch of orange (i.e. add 10% red colour), and a very dark BS381C/283 (add 10% black to this one) on upper surfaces, plus BS381C/697 light admiralty grey for bottom surfaces - are a good guess. As explained so often, Soviets used British Standard colours for painting their planes already since the 1950s, so there was not that much variation there (at least not for planes they were exporting in period 1950s-1970s).

Re. Arab MiGs: thanks, I'm happy if you're happy and, yes, Holger's contribution is going to appear in Arab MiGs Volume 5, due out in September this year.

Finally, regarding 'Soviet/Russian aircraft in the Middle East' by Y G for Hikoki: times when there was an independent team running Hikoki, including people who knew what they were doing and producing high-quality books, are long since over. That mark is meanwhile run by Casemate UK, and they - sadly - care about little else but getting specific titles published as 'by Hikoki', because readers think this would mean 'quality'. So, in essence, the content of that hardback includes next to no difference to anything 'he' has written/published since the mid-1990s. Old text, 'expanded' by stuff that's 'carefully selected' while lifting, copy-pasting and plagiarising various publications that appeared since, say, the Aerofax MiG-21-book. For example, specific Iraqi MiG-21STs are still declared for 'bis' (half the internet is full of explanations what they really were), while majority of artworks are copied from those in 'Iraqi Fighters' or 'Arab MiGs-19 & MiG-21 Units in Combat' - including all possible earlier mistakes, like:

- I drew this one for the ACIG website, back in 2003, basing it on a blurred video (there were no photos of Iraqi F-7s available back then):

http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/14/pics/19_6.jpg

- Gordon/Dexter/Komissarov:

http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/14/pics/19_6_b2.jpg

- some science fiction by an unknown Chinese artist:

http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/14/pics/19_10_b1.jpg

- Knights of Recycling clicked on 'like', and voila: a copy of the same is now in their books too:

http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/14/pics/19_10.jpg

Because they're so 'authoritative' and 'insisting on their unmatched first-hand sources' (stipulating use of documentation from official archives), here another silly one, showing a Syrian MiG-21F-13 in markings as were certainly, 100% sure, never worn by any Syrian MiG-21s at all (because such national markings were worn only before 1958, while first MiG-21s did not reach Syria before 1963-1964, and because no Syrian MiG-21s have got roundels on their fuselage ever):

http://img.wp.scn.ru/camms/ar/14/pics/80_2_b2.jpg

Given that's Hikoki, one would expect that 'ten years later', the authors of 'unmatched' information would have done their homework...

And if you want an example for lifting: a photo of Egyptian pilot taking place in the cockpit of MiG-21F-13 '5279'. Dr David Nicolle purchased that photo for 50 quids from original source in Egypt, and published it in 'Arab MiG-19 & MiG-21 Units in Combat', 12 years ago. But the knights of recycling have scanned it from there and are declaring it 'Russian Aviation Research Trust' or whatever else...

As said before, it's tragic, but it's the same way in text too: masses of - apparently - 'minor' mistakes, which in summary make the entire book (and not only this one) a futile exercise.

'EDIT': the forum-software says 'You are not allowed to use that image extension on this community...?!?

Edited January 21, 2014 by Tom Cooper

[Giorgio N]

Given that this thread is now 12 page long, I'd say that there's quite a lot of interest in the MiG-21 ! Hopefully there will be many models in the STGB

Some of the posts also seem to indicate that even if this type is one of the most widely used combat aircraft, there is still a lot that many (me incuded) don't know and there's still room for good books on the MiG-21

Last but not least, I have to say that the availability of good kits of the various variants is not as good as it could and should be ! Hopefully someone will fill this gap.

[SaintsPhil]

Given that this thread is now 12 page long, I'd say that there's quite a lot of interest in the MiG-21 ! Hopefully there will be many models in the STGB

Some of the posts also seem to indicate that even if this type is one of the most widely used combat aircraft, there is still a lot that many (me incuded) don't know and there's still room for good books on the MiG-21

Last but not least, I have to say that the availability of good kits of the various variants is not as good as it could and should be ! Hopefully someone will fill this gap.

Here here Giorgio!

The eduard kits set the bench Mark in 1/48, maybe one day they'll down scale, maybe even up scale!

Not too long to go now, I dug out my Academy (I know I know) PF kit last night, I think Ill build that, for no other reason than otherwise Ill never build it!!!

[Enzo the Magnificent]

no Syrian MiG-21s have got roundels on their fuselage ever

Thanks for that, Tom. I'll be building a Syrian Mig-21MF from 1982. I'll need to bear that in mind.

Edit: I've done a bit of research on this. I can find plenty of profiles of Syrian Mig-21s with fuselage roundels. Dozens of 'em! Photos... nope... all the photos I can find (except one anomaly) show no fuselage roundels.

I think this is a case of someone simply assuming that syrian Migs have fuselage roundels and painting their profile to matc then everyone els has simply followed along.

I've found one of your profiles of a Syrian Mig, Tom. I think I'mm gonna go with that.

The single anomaly I mentioned above was a photo of a Syrian Mig-21 which defected to Jordan. It clearly has a fuselage roundel but it also has Egyptian-style orange hi-vis panels. Is this possibly an ex-Egyptian aircraft in Syrian service which has simply not been repainted?

Edited January 21, 2014 by Enzo Matrix

[Max Headroom]

Enzo!

I think that's the photo I gave a link to far back on this thread and got corrected by Jennings (anyone heard from him lately btw). It's another case of lazy captioning by the original poster of the photo.

I'm in for an Indian Bis from the Italeri repop of the Academy. Labelled an MF I believe it is more Bis'ish'. As long as the tail looks ok I'll be happy.

Trevor