In two minds about an F-4D Loadout for 390th TFW 366 TFS, circa 1971

[Mick Drover]

Hi all.

 

I'm glad I've asked this early as I've only just made a start the 1/48 Academy F-4C Phantom with the necessary changes to make it an F-4D. It'd be dressed in Furball decals as a 366

 

The 390th/366th TFS TFW had the nickname of "The Gunfighters" due to their success with the use of the SUU-23 gun pod in air-to-air operations. With that in mind I was thinking of two options for a loadout. The first one is an A2A loadout as per the following. (Keep in mind that this will be a wheels up kit and suitably posed in flight to display the ordnance).

 

Stn 1: 370 Gal Tank

Stn 2: AIM-9B Sidewinder x2

Stn 3: AIM-7E Sparrow

Stn 4: AIM-7E Sparrow

Stn 5: SUU-23 Gun Pod

Stn 6: AIM-7E Sparrow

Stn 7: AIM-7E Sparrow

Stn 8: AIM-9B Sidewinder x2

Stn 9: 370 Gal Tank

 

The only problem with it is that it's a fairly ubiquitous loadout for A2A Phantoms in Vietnam.

 

My second and preferential loadout is for an A2G sortie with the following.

 

Stn 1: 370 Gal Tank

Stn 2: TER with 3x Mk.82 500lb

Stn 3: empty

Stn 4: empty

Stn 5: MER with 3x Mk.82 500lb with fuse extenders, 3x Mk.82 mechanical fuse

Stn 6: empty

Stn 7: empty

Stn 8: TER with 3x Mk.82 500lb

Stn 9: 370 Gal Tank

 

My question is would this be an accurate or common loadout?  I've found a profile (I know, but it's based on a particular day) of a jet from the same squadron and it's carrying an MER on the centreline with the same configuration of 500lbers as I mentioned on stn 5 but with Sidewinders and Sparrows in absence of the 500 lbers on the wing stations. I don't know the MTOW data for the Phantom but would a mix of A2A and A2G also be an option? And if so, what would it look like?

 

Thanks for the help.

 

Michael

[e8n2]

I don't know for sure the answer to your question, but here is something to keep in mind.  If they were flying a mission over South Vietnam, then the chances of running into enemy aircraft would be basically zero, so maybe no A2A armament.  If it was a mission over North Vietnam, ALWAYS carry at least a partial A2A load.  Where was the 366 TFW stationed at?  If they were in Thailand, which off hand I think they were, then they would always have an A2A partial load.  I was stationed at RAF Woodbridge from March `75 to March `77, part of the 81TFW.  From what I remember, they always flew their training missions with at least a partial A2A load, three AIM-7s with the left front AIM-7 rack carrying an ECM pod, and at least Aim-9 rails on the inboard pylons.  Even though I don't remember them ever using them, they did have the racks for the AIM-4D missiles available.  Sometimes they would carry a SUU-23 pod, other times a centerline tank.

Later,

Dave

[Mick Drover]

4 hours ago, e8n2 said:

I don't know for sure the answer to your question, but here is something to keep in mind.  If they were flying a mission over South Vietnam, then the chances of running into enemy aircraft would be basically zero, so maybe no A2A armament.  If it was a mission over North Vietnam, ALWAYS carry at least a partial A2A load.  Where was the 366 TFW stationed at?  If they were in Thailand, which off hand I think they were, then they would always have an A2A partial load.  I was stationed at RAF Woodbridge from March `75 to March `77, part of the 81TFW.  From what I remember, they always flew their training missions with at least a partial A2A load, three AIM-7s with the left front AIM-7 rack carrying an ECM pod, and at least Aim-9 rails on the inboard pylons.  Even though I don't remember them ever using them, they did have the racks for the AIM-4D missiles available.  Sometimes they would carry a SUU-23 pod, other times a centerline tank.

Later,

Dave

Thanks for that info @e8n2 Dave, it's very helpful.

 

The aircraft I'm doing was based at Da Nang so incursions to the north no doubt would have been regular. It sounds like the mix A2A/A2G option sounds like the version to go with. The timeframe is 1971 and based on what I've read the AIM-4D had been and gone and the pylons they were carried on were rewired to carry the sidewinder so it'll be 

 

If it was a partial load perhaps two Sparrows and two Sidewinders along with the 12 500 lbers....or would that be too much to carry?🧐🧐🧐🧐

 

I've not read anything about ECM pods being carried by them at this stage so I'll leave that one off.

 

Thanks for the info.

[Hook]

ECM pods were generally not carried over the South. For balance / center of gravity reasons two Sparrows in the aft bays were regularly carried even over areas where no air to air opposition was expected. 

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

[Finn]

Some F-4 pics can be seen here:

 

https://366th-tfw.net/f4_gallery.html

 

as mentioned above 2 AIM-7s were carried in the aft wells most of the time. If you plan to have Sidewinders you can't have any bombs on the same pylon as there wasn't enough clearance, at least for AF F-4s. 

 

Jari

[iainpeden]

I'm fairly sure the ability to carry bombs and sidewinders on an inner pylon was a USN modification only which was, initially, developed on the carriers.

 

Back to the F-4D, you could consider an asymmetric load where one outer wing pylon carries the 370-gallon tank and the other has an MER and bombs on; to give it a bit more variety the MER wouldn't have to be full as there was a bomb shortage for a while and a/c were taking off with partial loads.

[Murph]

From the spring of 1968 till the spring of 1972 there was little to no American airpower going north of the 20th parallel.  That generally meant no ECM pods or air to air missiles were carried.  If you do an air to air load, the AIM-9E was more likely to be carried than the AIM-9B by 1971.  Also, the AIM-4D was still being used.  On Steve Ritchie's first kill in May of 1972 he carried AIM-4Ds.

 

Regards,

Murph

[Mick Drover]

4 hours ago, Finn said:

Some F-4 pics can be seen here:

 

https://366th-tfw.net/f4_gallery.html

 

as mentioned above 2 AIM-7s were carried in the aft wells most of the time. If you plan to have Sidewinders you can't have any bombs on the same pylon as there wasn't enough clearance, at least for AF F-4s. 

 

Jari

Jari...that's a treasure trove of just what I need!

 

There's a photo of an LF coded jet #228 with the Boars head on the intake side that is loaded appropriately, same squadron too. I can see a CL tank, AIM-7E in the rear bays, empty wing tank pylons and 500lbsers on MERs on each of the inner wing pylons. That'll be it!

 

Thanks to everyone else for the helpful information, no doubt others will find it useful too.

 

Thanks heaps,

Michael

[Steve McArthur]

1 hour ago, Mick Drover said:

Jari...that's a treasure trove of just what I need!

 

There's a photo of an LF coded jet #228 with the Boars head on the intake side that is loaded appropriately, same squadron too. I can see a CL tank, AIM-7E in the rear bays, empty wing tank pylons and 500lbsers on MERs on each of the inner wing pylons. That'll be it!

 

Thanks to everyone else for the helpful information, no doubt others will find it useful too.

 

Thanks heaps,

Michael

That's TERs inboard and MERs outboard.  A MER is too long to fit inboard.

[Finn]

Or if you want something different from a different squadron, at the 1:30 mark of the video, 2 x 2000lb LGBs, 2 x Mk-82 on MER, ECM pod and a pair of AIM-7s:

 

https://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675071240_Mark-84-Laser-Guided-Bombs_Ubon-Royal-Thai-Air-Force-Base_F-4D_Electronic-countermeasures-pod

 

Jari

[spruecutter96]

Hi. 

 

There's also the possibility of "Chico The Gunfighter". As well as I can remember, this F-4E carried a Vulcan pod under each wing (in addition to it's nose-mounted 20mm gun) and went out looking for North Vietnamese trucks during daylight hours. Using three Vulcans on "soft-skinned" targets must have been devastating.

 

Maybe a future project...?

 

Cheers.

 

Chris.    

[e8n2]

19 hours ago, Mick Drover said:

Thanks for that info @e8n2 Dave, it's very helpful.

 

"based on what I've read the AIM-4D had been and gone and the pylons they were carried on were rewired to carry the sidewinder"

🧐🧐🧐🧐

 

The launch rails for the AIM-4D was very unique to say the least.  Mounted on the inner pylons, one rail was horizontal facing outboard and the other rail was vertical.  As I mentioned, in the mid 70s in the UK, we still had the launchers for the AIM-4s.  I remember one day coming back to the base from Ipswich (Go Ipswich!)  seeing a truck carrying at least one launch rail going to who knows where.  My memory also tells me that it had an AIM-4 on it at the time, but that doesn't make any sense and it was over 45 years ago now so some of the memory cells may be playing tricks with me.  Being a modeler and not a flyer or Munitions Maintenance person I would have been one of the very few people who knew what they were.  The Hasegawa pre-modular F-4E kit comes with the AIM-4 launch rails.  Bought one a couple of years ago just for the reason!

Later,

Dave

[Hook]

6 hours ago, spruecutter96 said:

Chico The Gunfighter

Article:

 

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/the-story-of-chico-the-gunfighter-the-very-unique-gun-podded-stormy-fast-fac-f-4e-phantom-ii-used-during-the-vietnam-war/

 

TwoBobs did sheets in 1/72nd, 1/48th and 1/32nd.

 

1 hour ago, e8n2 said:

The Hasegawa pre-modular F-4E kit comes with the AIM-4 launch rails.  Bought one a couple of years ago just for the reason!

Another option would be this Fine Molds set.

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

[Michael A.]

Mick,

 

 A quick review of my photo holdings of that era revealed the following:

 

All info was gleaned from a nose on photo of 723 believed to be F-4D 66-7723.  Photo taken mid 1971 at DaNang AB as aircraft approaches the arming pad.

 

Centerline: Drop Tank

Inboard Pylons: 3 x Mk 82 500 lb. bombs with Snake Eye High Drag fins.

Outboard Pylons: MERs with 2 x BLU-27 Firebombs (painted OD) Note: Inboard bombs were mounted on the Forward section of the MER, Outboard bombs were mound on AFT section of the MER.

Sparrow Bays: No missiles noted onboard the aircraft however, it was a common practice for 366th TFW aircraft to have a Strike Camera mounted in the FWD. Rt. Sparrow Bay.

 

Notes: (This is not definitive, only my observations)

I do not recall seeing any F-4Ds with Sparrows loaded.  (This is not definitive, only my observations)

I did note that F-4Es, on occasion, carried Sparrows in the AFT Sparrow Wells.

 

Michael

[Mick Drover]

On 1/16/2024 at 9:38 AM, Steve McArthur said:

That's TERs inboard and MERs outboard.  A MER is too long to fit inboard.

Ahh yes, take a closer look Michael!

[Mick Drover]

22 hours ago, Finn said:

Or if you want something different from a different squadron, at the 1:30 mark of the video, 2 x 2000lb LGBs, 2 x Mk-82 on MER, ECM pod and a pair of AIM-7s:

 

https://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675071240_Mark-84-Laser-Guided-Bombs_Ubon-Royal-Thai-Air-Force-Base_F-4D_Electronic-countermeasures-pod

 

Jari

I've read about the rear cockpit mounted tracker that the WSO used. I'm comitted to the 366th unit as it's what the Furball sheet covers. The use of LGB's is certainly an interesting subject for an F-4.

 

Thanks for the heads up Jari.

 

[Mick Drover]

7 hours ago, Michael A. said:

Mick,

 

 A quick review of my photo holdings of that era revealed the following:

 

All info was gleaned from a nose on photo of 723 believed to be F-4D 66-7723.  Photo taken mid 1971 at DaNang AB as aircraft approaches the arming pad.

 

Centerline: Drop Tank

Inboard Pylons: 3 x Mk 82 500 lb. bombs with Snake Eye High Drag fins.

Outboard Pylons: MERs with 2 x BLU-27 Firebombs (painted OD) Note: Inboard bombs were mounted on the Forward section of the MER, Outboard bombs were mound on AFT section of the MER.

Sparrow Bays: No missiles noted onboard the aircraft however, it was a common practice for 366th TFW aircraft to have a Strike Camera mounted in the FWD. Rt. Sparrow Bay.

 

Notes: (This is not definitive, only my observations)

I do not recall seeing any F-4Ds with Sparrows loaded.  (This is not definitive, only my observations)

I did note that F-4Es, on occasion, carried Sparrows in the AFT Sparrow Wells.

 

Michael

Thanks Michael. I think I'm going to go with the 12x 500 lber split between MER's on the inboard station based on one of the photos that Jari provided in his initial answer. I can see Sparrows in the aft wells so that supports your comment. The strike camera sounds like an interesting addition to the loadout too. I'll track on down.

 

Thanks for the great information.

MD

[Hook]

Some more F-4D inspiration here:

 

https://www.piccianiaircraftphotos.com/f-4d_phantom

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

[f111guru]

On 1/14/2024 at 11:15 PM, Mick Drover said:

Hi all.

 

I'm glad I've asked this early as I've only just made a start the 1/48 Academy F-4C Phantom with the necessary changes to make it an F-4D. It'd be dressed in Furball decals as a 366

 

The 390th/366th TFS TFW had the nickname of "The Gunfighters" due to their success with the use of the SUU-23 gun pod in air-to-air operations. With that in mind I was thinking of two options for a loadout. The first one is an A2A loadout as per the following. (Keep in mind that this will be a wheels up kit and suitably posed in flight to display the ordnance).

 

Stn 1: 370 Gal Tank

Stn 2: AIM-9B Sidewinder x2

Stn 3: AIM-7E Sparrow

Stn 4: AIM-7E Sparrow

Stn 5: SUU-23 Gun Pod

Stn 6: AIM-7E Sparrow

Stn 7: AIM-7E Sparrow

Stn 8: AIM-9B Sidewinder x2

Stn 9: 370 Gal Tank

 

The only problem with it is that it's a fairly ubiquitous loadout for A2A Phantoms in Vietnam.

 

My second and preferential loadout is for an A2G sortie with the following.

 

Stn 1: 370 Gal Tank

Stn 2: TER with 3x Mk.82 500lb

Stn 3: empty

Stn 4: empty

Stn 5: MER with 3x Mk.82 500lb with fuse extenders, 3x Mk.82 mechanical fuse

Stn 6: empty

Stn 7: empty

Stn 8: TER with 3x Mk.82 500lb

Stn 9: 370 Gal Tank

 

My question is would this be an accurate or common loadout?  I've found a profile (I know, but it's based on a particular day) of a jet from the same squadron and it's carrying an MER on the centreline with the same configuration of 500lbers as I mentioned on stn 5 but with Sidewinders and Sparrows in absence of the 500 lbers on the wing stations. I don't know the MTOW data for the Phantom but would a mix of A2A and A2G also be an option? And if so, what would it look like?

 

Thanks for the help.

 

Michael

Sorry I'm late for this party. You have a ton of information to absorb. What I do when building a certain subject by number is to gather as many photos as possible. The reasoning is configurations changed as mission requirements change. I entered the USAF in 1971 and attended technical school January 1972. I was sent to Clark AFB in June 1972 ans was sent from there to Udorn RTAFB 9 days later. I was a bomb loader for my 22 years of service. Starting with the F-4D 405th TFW 405th MMS and we loaded a variety of weapons for the 432nd TFW's daily mission. I can say that never saw an F-4 leave the ground on a combat mission without some type of self protection. The aft 2 cavities had AIM-7's loaded. Every jet in that year had 370's on the outboard. Most of what was loaded was iron bombs. A few M117's but mostly MK-82's. Some were extended fuses but most not. Our load crew loaded 2 F-4's with LGB's. Other loads included a variety of cluster bombs, napalm and M36 destructors.

Apologize for the image quality. Here are a few photos from Udorn Aug/Sep 1972

All The Best,

Ron VanDerwarker

[Hook]

Great shots, very evocative.

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

[Retired Bob]

As an ex-RAF weapon loader I cannot add much to the loadout details of a F-4D, however as a modeller I can inform you that if you are adding MER's, I tried Eduard and Aires MER's and they are too short in length.  If you try to add Mk.82s with either slick or Snake Eye tails to all 6 positions, the rear ones do not fit, they impact the ones fitted to the forward position. 

Luckily ResKit now make some 3D printed ones with the correct length, nicely detailed MER's and TER's are made, I bought some for my F-4 kits.  Eduard make a very nice SUU23 gun pod.