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FrancisGL

IT'S TIME...AMBUSH!!, GERMAN TANK DESTROYERS VOL2, STUG IV SDKFZ.167 1/35 ITALERI

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Hi Francis,

I've said similar before, but that's a super-grubby, battered, dirty old pig, of a StuG.

I'm going to have to criticise your tracks though and say there shouldn't be ANY silver wear on them! They are also far too red/orange. Even the oldest of tracks should be no more than a very dark brown with a merest hint of red mixed in - almost a chestnut colour.

 

Other than that, everything else is fantastic. I do love those Schürzen. The 'odd' one will be the icing on the cake.

 

Rearguards,

Badder

 

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Hi Plasto,

I have to disagree strongly on the silver! Well, for German AFVs anyway. The fact is the shine is not down to exposed silver metal, but a misinterpretation of the 'shine' seen in WWII Black and White photos. Worn German tracks, and drive sprocket teeth etc are a glossy reddish-brown. The 'shine' is merely the light glinting off the polished metal (just as a brown showroom car can shine 'white/silver' under spotlights)

 

Reaguards

Badder 

 

 

Feel free to disagree....

 

We’ve had the manganese steel wear debate not too long ago... 

Edited by Plasto

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56 minutes ago, Plasto said:

Feel free to disagree....

 

We’ve had the manganese steel wear debate not too long ago... 

Edited 50 minutes ago by Plasto

Indeed we did. I remember it well.

vkLRDH1.jpg

Rearguards,

Badder

Edited by Badder

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19 minutes ago, Badder said:

Indeed we did. I remember it well.

vkLRDH1.jpg

Rearguards,

Badder

That’s a really nice photo of a Panzer IV in a museum with heavily oxidised tracks.. I wonder where it was last run for any appreciable length of time???

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Oh boy. Hopefully this doesn't go on for long. The track debate is a long running point of contention. Maybe the are rust, but you have to remember, the rust is based off museum tanks. Usually if the tank moved, the high-point would should either dull metal, then polished to a higher shine as time went by. If you like how they look, then that's how you should keep it. If you find you want to change the colors at a future time, go for it! :cheers:

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On 16/02/2019 at 15:19, wimbledon99 said:

Those small accessories look so cool; brings the whole thing to life :clap:

Many thanks for your like and kind words, the pieces of equipment, I think that always give a touch of personality to the models, even more the figures ....🤔

Cheers mate 👍

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Hi Francis. Absolutely fantastic progress and it really is looking superb!! It really looks like it's been in a long battle! Lovely job! :thumbsup:

Kind regards,

Stix

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15 hours ago, Plasto said:
15 hours ago, Badder said:

 

That’s a really nice photo of a Panzer IV in a museum with heavily oxidised tracks.. I wonder where it was last run for any appreciable length of time???

Hi Plasto,

Errr.... a museum? .:yikes:

And there I was thinking that photo was taken in Werner's Portable Tank-Repair Shop on the Eastern Front circa 1943!

 

I jest of course. I hope you don't think I'm being argumentative, because I'm not. I'm responding here, for those who didn't follow the aforementioned discussion. elsewhere.

 

The point of the photo was to show that YES, the paint has been worn off the sprocket teeth exposing the metal beneath and YES they and the tracks have oxidised fairly heavily during their inactivity. No doubt some of that oxidation on the tracks transferred to the sprocket teeth when the tank was driven about as well. Whatever, the colour of the (Highly?) oxidised metal is a slightly-reddish, dark brown, not reddish-orange, or orangey-red. Furthermore, the colour of both the tracks and the teeth is the same.

Visit a steel plant and you'll find stockpiles of manganese steel ready for shipping and it will already be oxidised to a brownish/grey colour. In other words, it oxidises fairly quickly. The exposed metal then, gets progressively browner/reddish brown over time. It's important to realise that the oxidised layer, is, in itself, hard wearing, and so isn't readily worn away to expose fresh 'silver' metal, but is instead 'polished'.It glints and shines, reflecting light  and can appear to be silver, when it's actually brownish-grey or reddish brown in the case of older tracks.

Videos of the TigerI, StuG and Pz III in 'action' at Bovingdon are enough to convince me of this.

 

Anyway, I apologies to you @FrancisGL for hijacking your thread, but I still think your StuG's tracks need repainting!

 

Rearguards,

Badder

 

 

 

 

Edited by Badder

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19 hours ago, Badder said:

Hi Francis,

I've said similar before, but that's a super-grubby, battered, dirty old pig, of a StuG.

I'm going to have to criticise your tracks though and say there shouldn't be ANY silver wear on them! They are also far too red/orange. Even the oldest of tracks should be no more than a very dark brown with a merest hint of red mixed in - almost a chestnut colour.

 

Other than that, everything else is fantastic. I do love those Schürzen. The 'odd' one will be the icing on the cake.

 

Rearguards,

Badder

 

Many thanks for your interest, i'm glad you like it.

Cheers Badder 👍

 

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2 hours ago, Badder said:

Hi Plasto,

Errr.... a museum? .:yikes:

And there I was thinking that photo was taken in Werner's Portable Tank-Repair Shop on the Eastern Front circa 1943!

 

I jest of course. I hope you don't think I'm being argumentative, because I'm not. I'm responding here, for those who didn't follow the aforementioned discussion. elsewhere.

 

The point of the photo was to show that YES, the paint has been worn off the sprocket teeth exposing the metal beneath and YES they and the tracks have oxidised fairly heavily during their inactivity. No doubt some of that oxidation on the tracks transferred to the sprocket teeth when the tank was driven about as well. Whatever, the colour of the (Highly?) oxidised metal is a slightly-reddish, dark brown, not reddish-orange, or orangey-red. Furthermore, the colour of both the tracks and the teeth is the same.

Visit a steel plant and you'll find stockpiles of manganese steel ready for shipping and it will already be oxidised to a brownish/grey colour. In other words, it oxidises fairly quickly. The exposed metal then, gets progressively browner/reddish brown over time. It's important to realise that the oxidised layer, is, in itself, hard wearing, and so isn't readily worn away to expose fresh 'silver' metal, but is instead 'polished'.It glints and shines, reflecting light  and can appear to be silver, when it's actually brownish-grey or reddish brown in the case of older tracks.

Videos of the TigerI, StuG and Pz III in 'action' at Bovingdon are enough to convince me of this.

 

Anyway, I apologies to you @FrancisGL for hijacking your thread, but I still think your StuG's tracks need repainting!

 

Rearguards,

Badder

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Badder, I see that there is disension in what refers to the tracks, as I said before, I think that Plasto, are not yet finished, so the aspect is not definitive, I thought "sprinkle" more ... lol.


Modestly, what I'm really enjoying is the mud I got in the skirts especially, I did not think I would look so cool, I'll try to upload a photo with detail of the same, although if you zoom in the photo you can see more carefully .


I thought Mr.Mud (no offense, please ), would give me his detailed opinion about it, because your work with that material is very exhaustive ... although what is raising interest are the tracks.

 

Synthesizing, in your opinion, the touches of silver, should disappear ?, I had thought to mitigate them when they were finished ... my idea was that the tracks are reddish brown / dark ...almost totally.
Apologies accepted for "hijacking" the thread ...:fight: :lol:...

 

I found this in the forum ... it's a III, but it's a Stug ...

 

WZxdHZt.jpg

 

Cheers Badder 👍

Edited by FrancisGL

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13 hours ago, Panther II said:

Oh boy. Hopefully this doesn't go on for long. The track debate is a long running point of contention. Maybe the are rust, but you have to remember, the rust is based off museum tanks. Usually if the tank moved, the high-point would should either dull metal, then polished to a higher shine as time went by. If you like how they look, then that's how you should keep it. If you find you want to change the colors at a future time, go for it! :cheers:

Many thanks for your opinion, IMHO I think it's right, as I've already said, the work is not finished yet, so it's easy to modify the final look, I personally like the color dark I would have.

Cheers mate 👍

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20 hours ago, Panther II said:

WoW! I'm in awe! :clap2:You've done an excellent job!!!

Many thanks for your kind words, i'm glad you like it, but there is still more to be done ...

 

Cheers mate 👍

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Hi,

Firstly appolgies to Francis. The Stug is looking great. 

 

Its a bit unfortunate the track colour debate has raised its head.  Without hopefully ruining the thread which is about a nice model not metallurgy and mechanical wear characteristics of manganese steel. 

 

Anyhow by way way of considered reply..

 

Panzer Iv track links  along with many ww2 era tracks were made from Hadfield/ manganese steel which is a common material for tracks as the physical properties of the material are well suited for the appliicarion.

 

Each link is cast or forged and this means that the link ends up with a skin of oxide on the outer surfaces as part of that process. This oxide layer is tough and it’s this that forms the initial wearing surface of the track.

 

So while it’s tough it’s also in contact with the ground so is subject to wear. The more it’s run the more it wears. Also what the terrain is will determine how quickly this occurs. At some point the outer oxide layer is worn away exposing the base material underneath. I agree the colour of a raw manganese steel casting of a link is greyish brown...

 

These modern links are from manganese steel.

 

46138095484_38811f5deb.jpg

you can see where the manufacturer has dressed the casting after manufacture with a surface grinder cutting through the surface skin to the fresh material.

 

This panzer iv (also not in an eastern front repair shop) has tracks that look reasonably fresh.

 

40171901443_0a46052679_b.jpg

 

Finally this contemporary shot of a panzer iv in service shows what reasonably looks to be wear consistent with the wear mechanism of a manganese steel track link..

 

Note this vehicle is.

 

1. Actually in service

2. Has tracks that are probably a maximum of 2-3 years old.

 

Bild 183-J08365

 

So each modeller has to make their minds up how they want to weather tracks generally for a representation of an in service vehicle.

 

Have fun whatever you do..

 

Plasto..

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Plasto said:

Hi,

Firstly appolgies to Francis. The Stug is looking great. 

 

Its a bit unfortunate the track colour debate has raised its head.  Without hopefully ruining the thread which is about a nice model not metallurgy and mechanical wear characteristics of manganese steel. 

 

Anyhow by way way of considered reply..

 

Panzer Iv track links  along with many ww2 era tracks were made from Hadfield/ manganese steel which is a common material for tracks as the physical properties of the material are well suited for the appliicarion.

 

Each link is cast or forged and this means that the link ends up with a skin of oxide on the outer surfaces as part of that process. This oxide layer is tough and it’s this that forms the initial wearing surface of the track.

 

So while it’s tough it’s also in contact with the ground so is subject to wear. The more it’s run the more it wears. Also what the terrain is will determine how quickly this occurs. At some point the outer oxide layer is worn away exposing the base material underneath. I agree the colour of a raw manganese steel casting of a link is greyish brown...

 

These modern links are from manganese steel.

 

46138095484_38811f5deb.jpg

you can see where the manufacturer has dressed the casting after manufacture with a surface grinder cutting through the surface skin to the fresh material.

 

This panzer iv (also not in an eastern front repair shop) has tracks that look reasonably fresh.

 

40171901443_0a46052679_b.jpg

 

Finally this contemporary shot of a panzer iv in service shows what reasonably looks to be wear consistent with the wear mechanism of a manganese steel track link..

 

Note this vehicle is.

 

1. Actually in service

2. Has tracks that are probably a maximum of 2-3 years old.

 

Bild 183-J08365

 

So each modeller has to make their minds up how they want to weather tracks generally for a representation of an in service vehicle.

 

Have fun whatever you do..

 

Plasto..

 

 

Hi Plasto, I had no news of the controversy of the tracks so far, I've looked at the thread in case there was something to answer, of course, your apologies are accepted, and I thank both you and other colleagues the interest in my modest work, being open to constructive suggestions, that tried to combine with my skills / taste.
I hope they are at the end, if not perfect, with an intermediate point ... lol
Cheers Plasto.👍

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Very nice francis, very nice indeed, and It holds up superbly in the close up shots

Glynn 

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Hi Francis,

 

As you probably know, the muds I've used are homemade - usually made with Japanese Grit Paints,  coloured with acrylics/enamels/inks and 'improved' with 'found' materials such as sand/grit etc. but I don't think I've quite got the mixes right yet.

Personally, I think Stix is the one to watch for mud.

 

Your mud looks like a sandy, gravelly mud which would dry like concrete..... and that's exactly the effect you've achieved with the mud on the wheels, mud flaps and on the rear of the StuG. I have to say though, that the mud on the Shurzen is absolutely blindingly brilliant - the best I've ever seen.

I imagined that your StuG had crossed a shallow river with a gravel bed, and then up a churned up muddy/sandy/gravelly bank where other vehicles had already crossed and turned it into a deeply rutted quagmire, rather like the one in your photo above.

 

I don't know if you're going to muddy up the tracks later on. I know I'll be adding mud to mine, but I won't do that until Nassy has a diorama to sit in. The mud would just get knocked off with handling otherwise.

 

Rearguards,

Badder

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On 18/02/2019 at 12:15, PlaStix said:

Hi Francis. Absolutely fantastic progress and it really is looking superb!! It really looks like it's been in a long battle! Lovely job! :thumbsup:

Kind regards,

Stix

Many thanks for your support ans interest, That's the idea, those victory rings (not too many), they were not won at a fair ... lol

 

Cheers Stix 👍

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On 18/02/2019 at 20:04, Hewy said:

Very nice francis, very nice indeed, and It holds up superbly in the close up shots

Glynn 

Many thanks for your kind words, personally I really like how the mud has been.

Cheers Hewy 👍

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On 19/02/2019 at 02:51, Badder said:

Hi Francis,

 

As you probably know, the muds I've used are homemade - usually made with Japanese Grit Paints,  coloured with acrylics/enamels/inks and 'improved' with 'found' materials such as sand/grit etc. but I don't think I've quite got the mixes right yet.

Personally, I think Stix is the one to watch for mud.

 

Your mud looks like a sandy, gravelly mud which would dry like concrete..... and that's exactly the effect you've achieved with the mud on the wheels, mud flaps and on the rear of the StuG. I have to say though, that the mud on the Shurzen is absolutely blindingly brilliant - the best I've ever seen.

I imagined that your StuG had crossed a shallow river with a gravel bed, and then up a churned up muddy/sandy/gravelly bank where other vehicles had already crossed and turned it into a deeply rutted quagmire, rather like the one in your photo above.

 

I don't know if you're going to muddy up the tracks later on. I know I'll be adding mud to mine, but I won't do that until Nassy has a diorama to sit in. The mud would just get knocked off with handling otherwise.

 

Rearguards,

Badder

Many thanks, i'm glad you like it. I personally like the dry mud more than the wet one, hence the appearance.
The tracks will be attenuated later, although they will not have mud, rather dust ...

Cheers Badder 👍

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1 hour ago, FrancisGL said:
On ‎2‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 1:51 AM, Badder said:

 

Many thanks, i'm glad you like it. I personally like the dry mud more than the wet one, hence the appearance.
The tracks will be attenuated later, although they will not have mud, rather dust ...

Hi Francis,

Getting mud to look 'wet' AND realistic, is quite difficult, I think. That's why your dried mud looks more realistic and is your and my favourite. Yes, you can mix gloss varnish in with the texturing medium to make wet mud, but it doesn't look right at small scales. Satin varnish is probably better. Better still though, I think, is to have matt particles in a satin/gloss medium - and that's not easy to do!

 

Rearguards,

Badder

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Hi Francis. I'm just checking in to see if there has been any more progress on your wonderful project?

Kind regards, 

Stix 

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On 25/02/2019 at 09:21, PlaStix said:

Hi Francis. I'm just checking in to see if there has been any more progress on your wonderful project?

Kind regards, 

Stix 

Hi Stix, here is a new update ...

Cheers Stix 👍

Edited by FrancisGL
impossible access to the web ...

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UPDATE 09:

 

Now, just before I tried to post it, access to the forum was interrupted ...

 

Hi Pals, new progress...

 

Time to add vegetation, two types....

 

JMbA21u.jpg

 

 

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Sm1FcRG.jpg

 

 

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Next, adding antennas, final retouches...and maybe some more.....

 

Thanks for watch and comment as always.

 

Cheers mates :D

 

NyuWAWh.jpg

 

Edited by FrancisGL

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Looking very nice Francis.

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