Knight Templar 1872 Iron screw steamer

[Dave Swindell]

On 05/07/2017 at 5:41 PM, Ray S said:

so would they stand to one side of the wheel?

Yes, old sailing ship practice, helm would be standing to windward to get a better view forward and to better see the set of the sails. Depending on wind direction, the helm may be steering to keep the sails set correctly rather than on a compas bearing. The sailing master would have the sails set to achieve course made good.

[Martian]

23 hours ago, Ray S said:

 

Thankyou Martian for suggesting it, when the lid (roof!) is on, you will never know whether I did or not!

 

Thanks for giving me a laugh!

 

Ray

You are most welcome.

 

Martian

[Ray S]

On 5/9/2017 at 10:41 AM, Dave Swindell said:

Yes, old sailing ship practice, helm would be standing to windward to get a better view forward and to better see the set of the sails. Depending on wind direction, the helm may be steering to keep the sails set correctly rather than on a compas bearing. The sailing master would have the sails set to achieve course made good.

 

Thanks for that Dave, I have a bit of an idea now.

 

Ray

[Ray S]

Hello all.

 

After the suggestion from Martian, I had a look at the plans for Knight Templar, and sadly found that there were no WC's in the deck superstructure. However, there was a charthouse, so I decided to tart that up a bit.

 

 

I fitted a wall to separate the charthouse from the stairwell (no, I am not putting stairs in!), then fitted the chart table at the aft end of the cabin. Then, I needed a chronometer, so I got some 1mm rod (this would make the clock 12" in size - not too far-fetched) and used a needle to scribe the hands on. I painted the face black, then wiped the paint off, leaving the black in the scribed lines. Then I painted the rod gold, and used a razor blade to thinly slice off the clock.

 

 

Then I painted it all up, beige for the walls and red/brown for the chart table. I trimmed out a bit of paper 2mm x2mm and drew on a representation of the coast between the Clyde and Northern Ireland (this is a very approximate description of what I drew!) and fitted it to the table.

 

 

When the structure is finally fitted to the deck, I will add a stool. And possibly a (non-working) lamp.

 

To get me back to sanity, before I did all that I had fun dry fitting all the bits to the deck:

 

 

That is it for now,

 

Ray

 

 

[Martian]

5 hours ago, Ray S said:

After the suggestion from Martian, I had a look at the plans for Knight Templar, and sadly found that there were no WC's in the deck superstructure.

You mean they went over the side? Never mind, I can see where they were coming from; I too never could stand those nasty, smelly indoor things. The things you learn on BM!

 

Martian

[beefy66]

Quote

1 hour ago, Ray S said:

When the structure is finally fitted to the deck, I will add a stool. And possibly a (non-working) lamp.

 

In that scale the lamp will look like a pin head  

 

And be careful with your stools they can be very uncomfortable at times make sure you fit a cushion  

 

Beefy

[longshanks]

Nuts but I like it!

 

Going to be a pretty looking boat.....

 

Kev

[ShipbuilderMN]

Pretty looking Ship!  Not boat!     There was a WC in the 'midship section - starboard side between petty officers' cabin and 2 berth cabin!

Bob

[Bandsaw Steve]

Dear shipbuilder, 

I fully agree that this is a ship and not a boat, but I am unsure why. It just seems right. Do you have a workable definition/ distinction between the two? I work in iron ore mining and when people say we put ore on a 200,000 tonne 'boat' it offends my sensibilities- but I cannot logically defend my position without a really sound practical definition that distinguishes between the two.

Regards Reconcilor 

[ShipbuilderMN]

It is easy enough really.     A ship always carried boats, but boats have never ever carried ships, even though boats can carry smaller boats!

I have always called ships ships, ever since the age of about six when I became interested in them.    You can always ask those who refer to them as boats:

Have you ever heard of a "battleboat?"

"A 74-gun boat of the line?"

A "warboat"      (Although you can legitimately have a "gunboat!")

"The Tall Boats Race?"

Ever heard of the order "abandon boat?"

I sailed in iron ore ships in my youth, and they were generally referred to as "ore carriers!"

Terms like boat train, banana boat, mail boat, were invented by those who worked ashore, and most of the general public (at least in the UK, just followed on!), and many make it a "point of honour" to refer to ships as "boats" just to wind people up!   

When I was in large passenger liners, I have known captains who would go purple with rage if passengers referred to the ship as a "Boat!"

 

I am not all that bothered myself, but usually point it out.    

Hope this doesn't go on and on like similar threads usually do!

 

Edited May 17, 2017 by ShipbuilderMN
Spelling mistake

[Ray S]

Hello all!

 

14 hours ago, ShipbuilderMN said:

Pretty looking Ship!  Not boat!     There was a WC in the 'midship section - starboard side between petty officers' cabin and 2 berth cabin!

Bob

 

I agree Bob, ship she is! There were other WC's, 2 aft and 2 forward, but sadly they are outwith my detailing area, so they will be fitted 'virtually' but not in reality so any crew can still go!

 

Back to life, back to reality. Time to make the forward entrance way. How to do it? I read the plan as showing glazing at the sides of the housing, so thought I could cut the sides out from clear sheet and mask the glass.

 

 

This was my first attempt. The eagle eyed will notice I used masking tape but forgot to mark on the glass area. I re-did that, then tried to cut out the mask, but I could not manage. Next, I put tape directly onto the plan and tried again. No luck again. Even with magnifiers I could not see clearly enough to be able to join up the sides of the cuts so I kept pulling up the whole lot of tape! Next try was to attempt the same idea I used for the chart house windows, chain-drilling and scalpel work.

 

 

That was better, but you must remember I chain-drilled ONE hole for the forward curved glazing. Then was very careful with the scalpel blade! It looks rough in the photo but does not look too bad in the flesh, so to speak. I then cut out some 10 thou card and gave it a roof after I had painted the interior with a light brown colour and taped it down to set.

 

 

The camera seems to have focussed on the glasses case, I do apologise! That lot took a few hours to do eventually! Last night while I was waiting patiently for the football result (Reading/Fulham) I made a list of the things I still need to do, and there is a lot! I am going to try Kev's idea for creating ships boats (in his Clyde Puffer thread), that will be a first. I need to produce three different types, two duplicated. I do have a backup method, but the way I did mine before required them to be covered, and I would prefer them to be open so I can add a bit more detail.

 

That is it for now, thanks for looking, the advice and the humour!

 

Ray

[ShipbuilderMN]

Thats isn't glass on either side of the companionway entrance, it is just wood panelling!

Bob

Edited May 17, 2017 by ShipbuilderMN
Spelling mistake

[Bandsaw Steve]

Ray S,

Still loving this build, progressing beautifully.

 

Shipbuilder,

Thanks very much for your comments on 'boat vs ship' , a very succinct distinction! And just so this doesn't go on and on I shall consider this matter closed.

👌

Reconcilor

[longshanks]

Bob

You are of course absolutely right but pretty looking ship sounds far to grand for what's going to finish up looking rather cute 

 

Kev

[Martian]

24 minutes ago, longshanks said:

Bob

You are of course absolutely right but pretty looking ship sounds far to grand for what's going to finish up looking rather cute 

 

Kev

I don't know, surely beauty is in the eye of the beholder? Although, as a fully paid up Martian who has to look in the mirror at least twice a day, I would say that, wouldn't I?

 

Martian

[Ray S]

On 5/17/2017 at 0:20 PM, ShipbuilderMN said:

Thats isn't glass on either side of the companionway entrance, it is just wood panelling!

Bob

 

Bob, thank you for that piece of information! This sort of thing is just what I asked for early in the build - if I am about to make a boo-boo, let me know...

 

Armed with this excellent advice, I modified the companionway entrance by skinning it with 5 thou card. I then successfully (this time) managed to cut out masks for the recessed (I hope!) panelling. I used 2mm Aizu tape for this, then trimmed the curve of the panel. I then gave it two brush coats of paint and lifted one of the masks hoping to see a ridge just like the hull plating, but I must have painted it on too thin as there was no ridge. Out came the Halfords primer, it was quickly sprayed on, and a couple of hours later I peeled the masks off and all was well.

 

 

I have painted it with Revell Dark Earth as an undercoat, then Revell Brown in a slightly streaky fashion to simulate a wood effect. Just need to give it a satin varnish now.

 

I hope that is better, and thanks again Bob for the information, it is greatly appreciated.

 

Ray

[ShipbuilderMN]

That is OK now.  Glass would have been too vulnerable right in the bow of the ship.     They were very keen on wood panelling on the outside of deckhouses and companionways in those days.   I built Knight Templar myself years ago at 1:384.    It does make a pleasant change to see something like this built.

Bob

[Ray S]

2 hours ago, ShipbuilderMN said:

That is OK now.  Glass would have been too vulnerable right in the bow of the ship.     They were very keen on wood panelling on the outside of deckhouses and companionways in those days.   I built Knight Templar myself years ago at 1:384.    It does make a pleasant change to see something like this built.

Bob

 

Hello Bob, I am glad it is better. Did you have any references to the colours used on Knight Templar? I have not been able to find any references in my three books (Steam Coasters by CV Waine and British Ocean Tramps Vols 1+2 by PN Thomas) nor any details about Wm and James Brown, the owners either in book form or online. I have considered doing a 'generic' scheme, based on either Pentland Firth in Steam Coasters (page 83) or that of Waterloo in British Ocean Tramps Vol 2 page 22. 

 

It is down to your builds that I have got into doing this sort of model!

 

Thanks for taking the time to help,

 

Ray

[ShipbuilderMN]

It was all guesswork, but I also went for a black hull, red under water.    Decks wood, of course.   I did read somewhere that it was associated with Harrison Line, so I gave it a Harrison funnel.   Black funnel with a broad white band, and a thin orange band in the middle of the white.     Harrisons colours were often jokingly referred to as "two of fat, one of lean"    (Bacon) because they were poor feeders, but I never sailed in one, so do not know!     I have also build Waterloo, and often considered Pentland Firth as well, but never got round to it!

Bob

[Ray S]

Thanks for the above Bob. I will go for the generic look I think, but based on what was around at the time.

 

Ray

[Killingholme]

Excellent to see this build coming on. Thanks for logging the build in such detail, it's really useful. It's made me think 'I reckon I could do that!' I think I might have a go.

 

And just for a bit of etymological fun...

 

Boat: N. Old English bat "boat, ship, vessel," from Proto-Germanic *bait- (source also of Old Norse batr, Dutch boot, German Boot), possibly *bheid- "to split," if the notion is of making a boat by hollowing out a tree trunk or from split planking; or it may be an extension of the name for some part of a ship. French bateau "boat" is from Old English or Norse. Spanish batel, Italian battello, Medieval Latin batellus likewise probably are from Germanic.

 

Ship: N. Old English scip "ship, boat," from Proto-Germanic *skipam (source also of Old Norse, Old Saxon, Old Frisian, Gothic skip, Danish skib, Swedish skepp, Middle Dutch scip, Dutch schip, Old High German skif, German Schiff), "Germanic noun of obscure origin" [Watkins]. Others suggest perhaps originally "tree cut out or hollowed out," and derive it from PIE root *skei- "to cut, split". 
Now a vessel of considerable size, adapted to navigation; the Old English word was used for small craft as well, and definitions changed over time; in 19c., distinct from a boat in having a bowsprit and three masts, each with a lower, top, and topgallant mast. French esquif, Italian schifo are Germanic loan-words. 
 

[Ray S]

Hello all!

 

I have had a bit of a down and up weekend so far! Yesterday I was all ready to attempt soldering for the first time. I had read up all about the process - David Griffith in his Ship Models from Kits book showed it was nice and easy. So I had a practice, 'cos I know what I am like. I managed to make up a couple of dummy masts and yards and thought I was ready to go for the real deal. Then my soldering iron would not melt the solder...I tried all sorts of things to get it to work, but no good. Despond!

 

Then I found this topic:

 

 

I thought, 'Right, I now have a better idea' and went to try again. No luck. Fast forward to evening. My good lady and I had a couple of visitors over, and one of them used to solder for a living, so I asked her for advice. She tried, no luck, the iron would not melt the solder. Her hubby went home, got their soldering iron, and all was well, the solder melted, she made up another dummy mast, I did another too. Then it was time for whisky, so I delayed doing the real job until today...

 

This morning, I tried my iron, you know what (didn't) happen, then I tried hers, and result!

 

 

It worked! I built up the foremast, remembering to put in heat sinks between what had been completed and what I was working on. I used the back of a tile to secure the work with blu-tack, and drew a grid onto the tile to line everything up. Thankfully it all went reasonably well. I think there may be a small misalignment on one of the yardarms, but I am going to live with that. I cleaned up the excess solder and it looks ok.

 

PS the kink at the bottom of the mast is an adjustment I had to make to get the mast into the correct position when in place - the tubing I had fitted was slightly wrong! I made the adjustment before I soldered the yardarms - next time if I need to I will do it after the soldering.

 

The aft mast needed two booms(?) instead of yards, they went on okay but the lower one fell off when I was cleaning it up, but I re-soldered it. This time I tried adding the solder from both sides (on the upper boom) and it seemed to improve things. I am really very much a novice at this lark, but feel better that I persevered and have something to show for it! I have a number of future projects where I need to fabricate masts.

 

 

 

The masts thankfully line up fore and aft (I was slightly off centre when I took the above photo or I could not see both masts) and they are the same distance apart at the bottom and top of the masts.

 

 

 

 

The masts are only push fitted at the moment, I have resisted the temptation to glue them in!

 

One bit of advice form any other solderers out there - have any of you used solder paint? I have some 60:40 solder paint, but could not get it to work either. I had read somewhere that it contained flux too, so in theory should just be brushed on then you can use the tip of the iron to create the bond. Is that right? I know I need to pop into Antics to get advice on the iron, maybe I need to replace the tip as I may have wrecked it somehow, it certainly gets hot but is not melting the solder.

 

Anyway, thanks for looking, and as usual, any advice is appreciated.

 

Ray

Edited May 21, 2017 by Ray S
Added extra info!

[longshanks]

Hi Ray,

Top horizontal(ish) is the Gaff

Bottom is the Boom

 

I suspect one of the problems you are having is getting enough heat on the joint. I use a Micro blow torch (gas powered) even on very small pieces. The 5mm diameter steering wheel on the puffer that I did recently was done with a torch. Plus mast, boom and gooseneck. It may seem aggressive but your only touching the flame to the joint for a second or two.

 

I only use solder paint and I reckon its the best. It has self cleaning flux within it. Easy to make simple elegant joints with minimum clean up.

 

Just got back from Spain, will check in the morning what make of torch I have

 

Despite your trials you are getting there...............

 

Kev

 

Morning Checked and the one I use is from B & Q (others are available)

http://www.diy.com/departments/mm1937-gosystem-pen-torch/191137_BQ.prd?ecamp=Seapla&ppc_type=shopping&ds_kids=92700020204976612&gclid=Cj0KEQjw9YTJBRD0vKClruOsuOwBEiQAGkQjP4dWXBvdNVzMgZwTE8qpVrNcLAdBY8X_LxNBLnBYwXgaAgbW8P8HAQ&gclsrc=aw.ds.ds&dclid=CI_98cfygtQCFZWsUQodoBsN0A

 

One thing that may well be handy for some is that you can change from a live flame. By changing the end piece you can use the flame to heat a conventional solder tip

 

HTH

Edited May 22, 2017 by longshanks

[Martian]

The masts look spot on!

 

Martian

[Ray S]

Hello all.

 

On 5/22/2017 at 11:31 PM, Martian Hale said:

The masts look spot on!

 

Martian

 

Martian, thanks for that! There is just one problem...I looked at the plans again to see what I could do next, and found I had forgotten something. So, here is the fore mast as it should have been done first time! Note addition off gaff and boom (thanks for the nomenclature Kev!)

 

 

Yesterday I went back to Antics and had a chat with the team there about the soldering issues I was having. It was suggested I needed a more powerful iron (mine is 18w), but the one I borrowed was an 18w too, so I decided to get a new tip as I may have damaged the original. I also bought a new reel of flux cored solder wire. I got home, tried the original tip with the new wire, and bingo! It worked a treat. I cobbled up a couple of practice bits of brass, then tried the mast proper. The boom went on fine and I was able to jig it better this time too. For the first time since I bought it, my 'helping Hands' clamp/magnifier was used. There must be something about me buying things that seem a good idea, then never use them! It was 3 years before I used the soldering iron, and probably 10 since I bought the Helping Hands.

 

I blu-tacked the mast to the ceramic tile, then got the HH to hold the boom right on top of the mast at the correct point. It took a while, but was so much better. Then it was time to attach the gaff, which just happens to be right under the lower yardarm. I was worried about the solder melting that join as I was fitting the gaff. I could not fit a heat sink in the space between, so I just went for it. The join did not melt, and the gaff is attached well. Thank goodness for that!

 

After those fun and games, back to plastic bashing, and time for chain drilling. This time I was able to put more than 1 hole in the chain drilling, and roughed out a circle ready for the funnel. I trimmed the hole out, then used a couple of files to get the hole the right shape for a slightly angled funnel, which finally fitted a treat. I have now attached a couple of miniscule plastic bits to act as  support for the steam pipe which will be fitted later.

 

 

(sorry about the photo!)

 

 

I have also painted the deck edging black where the wood stopped and the hull sides started so now there is no white showing up on deck.

 

I am going to slow down on this for a while, as I am doing a Tamiya E-Class destroyer for the Made in Britain II Group Build here on BM, so I am probably going to do this one day and the destroyer the next. It will also give me time to think how to do the sails. I have a few ideas on that:

• Use foil to create the shapes, and spray a light grey primer for the colour, and use pencil lines for the stitching
• Use tissue paper and spray with PVA diluted with tea to give a brownish colour for the sails, and pencil in the stitching
• Use printer paper as above, but I can pencil in the lines first.
• I will not use fabric, as I am not a seamster and am unable to sew well (I have tried a lot in the past) and I would need to stitch the edges to prevent fraying.

Any thoughts? I have read one place where it said to attach the sails before you attach the yardarms, but that will be a bit difficult now, and probably would not have been a good idea when soldering.

 

Thanks for looking, all the best,

 

Ray

Edited May 24, 2017 by Ray S
Tidy up the post