Cameron Lynch Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 Am I to assume that Tomahawks serving in the Desert Air Force in 1941 would have had their US Browning .30cal wing guns replaced with .303? What about the two Browning .50cal machine guns in the nose? Thanks in advance. Cameron 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Kunac-Tabinor Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 Hi Cameron, to the best of my knowledge, the nose mounted .50's were retained. I would imagine, given the difference in size between the Browning .50 and its smaller 0.303 cousin, that mounting .303 in the nose would have caused all sorts of problems, and I doubt anyone would complain about the extra "oomph" that a pair of fifties would add anyway. But - yes the wing guns were the standard British Browning .303 though i suspect the aircraft were delivered either with them in ( ie added during their construction) or with the gun bays empty for the RAF to fit them on delivery. Otherwise you'd end up with a big pile of .30 calibre machine guns, and some head scratching as to what to do with 'em Don't forget these weren't USAAC P-40B or C's as such they were Model H-81A1 ( Mk1) or A2 (Mk II) versions - built to order for the RAF in the latter case, and paid for rather than lend-lease - so the buyer could specify what they wanted, and how they wanted them . Cheers Jonners Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beard Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 This suggests that all guns were .303: http://www.boxartden.com/gallery/index.php/Profiles/Aircraft-Profiles/USA/World-War-Two/Curtiss-P-40-Tomahawk-35/Curtiss-P-40-Tomahawk-35-_Page_09-960 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhaselden Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 1 hour ago, Jon Kunac-Tabinor said: Hi Cameron, to the best of my knowledge, the nose mounted .50's were retained. I would imagine, given the difference in size between the Browning .50 and its smaller 0.303 cousin, that mounting .303 in the nose would have caused all sorts of problems, and I doubt anyone would complain about the extra "oomph" that a pair of fifties would add anyway. But - yes the wing guns were the standard British Browning .303 though i suspect the aircraft were delivered either with them in ( ie added during their construction) or with the gun bays empty for the RAF to fit them on delivery. Otherwise you'd end up with a big pile of .30 calibre machine guns, and some head scratching as to what to do with 'em Don't forget these weren't USAAC P-40B or C's as such they were Model H-81A1 ( Mk1) or A2 (Mk II) versions - built to order for the RAF in the latter case, and paid for rather than lend-lease - so the buyer could specify what they wanted, and how they wanted them . Cheers Jonners Jonners, Guns were typically Government Furnished Equipment (along with reflector gunsights and radios) and so would be installed after the airframe had been erected and test-flown at the MU. The GFE items could have been installed at the MU or at the squadron level, depending on the theatre and urgency of operations. Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 Well, I'd have to dig through the files, but as I recall there were some with .303s and some with .30s. There's a chance there were even some with an assortment! I think it had something to do with supply of guns and/or ammunition. It is possible I'll be back with some quotes, but I'm not to keen on a long search on my computer... bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airjiml2 Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 General wisdom is that the Tomahawk Mk. Is were delivered with French guns, that the IIAs were delivered with .30 guns, and that the IIBs were fitted with .303 guns. However, in this case general wisdom is wrong and all Mk. IIs were delivered with .30 guns. However, this is not to say that some/many Tomahawk IIs were not refitted with .303 guns. The best suggestion is to look closely at period photos. You might be quite surprised at what you see on some Tomahawks! The .50 cals were retained in the nose. Jim 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Kunac-Tabinor Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 Well blow me sideways with a small pifco!! Thats what I love - you learn something new everyday. So what you are saying here is that Tomahawks flew with a mix of small calibre MGs?- but really? the logistics? Mark's post about GFE makes more sense. Or are we saying some were delivered with Darne's, or Thirty ought noughts and then they were retrofitted with .303s? Cheers Jonners Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airjiml2 Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 39 minutes ago, Jon Kunac-Tabinor said: So what you are saying here is that Tomahawks flew with a mix of small calibre MGs?- but really? the logistics? There are reasons for it that have to do with differences between U.S. and British approaches to ammunition. It doesn't make the most logical or logistical sense, but it indeed happened. There is at least on well circulated photo on the internet that clearly illustrates the point. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 So are these .30cal or .303?: http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/306e42fed826a54c_large Jari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogsbody Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 The British .303 belt-fed mg's were based on the M1919 Browning machine gun. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1919_Browning_machine_gun http://www.aviation-history.com/guns/303.htm http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_browning_mkII_raf.html http://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=1017 Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cameron Lynch Posted November 21, 2016 Author Share Posted November 21, 2016 I would assume that the .303s on the Tomahawk didn't have the flash hider? Pity that Master Model doesn't make a set of brass .303 barrels without them in 1/48. Cameron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airjiml2 Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 2 hours ago, Finn said: So are these .30cal or .303?: http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/306e42fed826a54c_large Jari Jari, That is a .30. Cameron - I have not seen any photos of the .303s on Tomahawks with the flash hider, but it is possible a few had them fitted. They weren't common however. I think Vector may make a set without the flash hider, but yea, they are no Master. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS_w Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 (edited) In the handbook of instructions on the service and maintenance of H81A2 Airplanes, it is wrote "...CAL.303 wing guns..." Edited November 22, 2016 by BS_w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 The RAF Tomahawk I pilot's notes just says that wing guns of rifle calibre may be fitted, but describes the cowling (fuselage) guns as being 0.5 in calibre of Colt manufacture. Wing gun type did vary as 1st Sqn AVG had 7.9mm wing guns of Chinese origin. I think the idea of all .303 for the RAF Tomahawks derives from the Mohawks which were re-armed with .303 in both cowling and wings. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airjiml2 Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 1 hour ago, Nick Millman said: Wing gun type did vary as 1st Sqn AVG had 7.9mm wing guns of Chinese origin. Nick, Thanks for posting that; I always wondered what the AVG used. Did the 2nd and 3rd Squadrons use a different wing gun? Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS_w Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 (edited) the H75A4 purchased by british was originally fitted with .303 browning guns, it's same for british H81 except for synchronized guns which was .50 on H81. These indications are given by Curtiss technical drawings. (drawings 75-69-450 & 81-69-204, british gunnery) and their diagrams" relationship with guns and line sight". Curtiss provided different mounting for each gun type according to purchaser. Edited November 22, 2016 by BS_w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbob Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 Tomahawk Mk I had .303s, Mk II had (US) .30s. While I don't think I've found the file I (vaguely) remember, I did find these comments. They're not the proverbial "smoking gun" (ahem), but might help to explain some of what was going on: Quote 17 July 41 Air Ministry to AOCinC ACC (source AIR 39/25) [Initially about Mustangs to replace Tomahawks] As regards ammunition, I took this up with DGE and the following is the report: "The supply position of SAA for the American guns fitted in Army Co-operation Tomahawks is as follows. .300 Guns - The total quantities available are sufficient to meet maximum demands but consist mainly of ball and tracer. The quantities of AP in stock are very small and no incendiary is available. .5 Guns - There is sufficient to meet maximum requirements of ball, tracer and AP but there is no incendiary. BAC are pressing for the production of incendiary ammunition (which has not until now been an American requirement) and it is possible that supplies will commence in two months. This applies to incendiary for both .3 and .5 guns. There is no capacity for the production of incendiary ammunition of these calibres in the UK. As regards AP for .3 guns, our orders are placed through the Ministry of Supply who decide the quantities to be allocated to the various Services from the total available. Supplies have been comparatively small and the Ministry of Supply are continually being urged to obtain more." Quote 18 July 41 AOCinC ACC (Arthur Barratt) to "Under Secretary of State" Air Ministry: (source AIR 39/25) I have the honour to refer to the introduction of the Tomahawk, Mark II armament with .300 guns. A review of the ammunition position for this type of gun shows that ball ammunition only is generally available, only a very small supply of APA being held. The Tomahawks in my Command will normally be operating singly and I attach great importance to their efficiency as fighters when attacked. I have, therefore, decided to request that two of the .300 guns in each aircraft should be replaced by .303 guns. The actual work involved in making this change appears to be small and well within the capabilities of units. I am informed that similar steps have, in fact been taken in regard to Tomahawk aircraft in the Middle East. It would, therefore, be much appreciated if the necessary guns, amounting to approximately 100 for the initial issue aircraft can be made available and also that any particulars that you may have on the subject from the Middle East could be forwarded to this Headquarters. Incidentally, we have Edgar to thank for these, since he dug up this file for me at the PRO. bob 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airjiml2 Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 Bob, Those are the documents I based my conclusions upon - thanks for posting them. (Note the concern was with AP and incendiary ammunition is the reason the .30 was found lacking and .303s were fitted.) Also, note that they mention they Mk. IIs are fitted with .300 guns. (However, this is directly contrary to BS_W's post about the Curtiss drawings. Odd.) Photos do verify that the .30s were more common on the Army Co-op Mk IIs, and certainly verify the mixed guns on Army Co-op aircraft. I've not studied the Desert AF birds, as the initial question asks, but looking at a few photos online, it seems some had two .30s per wing, some had two .303s per wing, and some had a mix. The Mk. Is were fitted with the .303s as they were originally French are were fitted with French guns. I have no ideas if the Mk. Is were delivered with those guns or not, but there are photos of Tomahawks delivered to Squadrons sans guns and clearly the Mk. Is were retrofitted with .303s. So I guess the moral of the story is find a photo of the particular aircraft and match the photo. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 5 hours ago, airjiml2 said: Nick, Thanks for posting that; I always wondered what the AVG used. Did the 2nd and 3rd Squadrons use a different wing gun? Jim According to Chuck Baisden an AVG armourer the other two squadrons were using .30 Browning wing guns supplied by CAMCO. According to Terrill Clements the .5 fuselage guns were factory installed but not the wing guns and CAMCO did not have sufficient guns for all three squadrons. Baisden mentions that the usual AVG loading was two ball, two AP and one tracer. Incendiary was tried with the .5s but they stopped using it due to problems and it was only used in the wing guns of the late P-40Es. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airjiml2 Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 Nick, Again, thank you! Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS_w Posted November 26, 2016 Share Posted November 26, 2016 today i receive the drawing 87 69 204 about the wing gunnery of H81, H 81A1&2. It was initially cal.30 COLT(it was described and written), this drawing is contained in the handbook . On the first page it was hand written "Paul Carpenter, Personal copy, Tomahawks, Egypt, 1941-1942, Libya 1942...". The diagram relation ship/guns is probably wrong when wrote " .303. see DWG 81-69-204" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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