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mhaselden

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About mhaselden

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  1. mhaselden

    Fury colours

    I tend to agree, Pete. The overwhelming photographic evidence points in that direction. I should note that my first impression of the MMP image was of white checks but the more I looked at the image, the less convinced I became. While the one fully-visible check does appear to be white, the others are far less clear and could easily be silver dope. The 3 personnel in front of the fuselage ally don't help - they could be causing all sorts of unusual shadows which alter our perception of the image.
  2. mhaselden

    Fury colours

    There's another pic of K3731 on this website. It's a "pay for the pic" site so the images aren't particularly large or clear but it appears to show K3731 without white checks. It still has the coloured fin of a flight commander, although this one has the 43 Sqn pennant marking on the fin which isn't present on the MMP image. The latter detail is interesting because it begs the question which image is earlier? Logically, the image with the pennant is later, unless the fin in the MMP image was overpainted/recovered, thus removing the pennant from display. It seems the only evidence that 43 Sqn Hawker Fury airframes had white checks are the few written references to it in various publications, although no source is provided for the information. Given the relatively large number of photos of the Fury, I would expect there to be at least one good, clear shot showing the white checks. That fact that we're poring over one, rather poor-quality, image published in the MMP and coming up with differing interpretations doesn't, to me, connote solid evidence one way or another. As things stand, I'm inclined to propose that the 43 Sqn airframes didn't have white checks. There are just too many photos that clearly show the aluminium dope and none (MMP excepted) that show white checks.
  3. mhaselden

    Fury colours

    Sorry, folks, but I'm wary of copyright laws and so won't be scanning any images from the MMP book.
  4. mhaselden

    Fury colours

    Finally managed to find a single contemporaneous image of a 43 Sqn Fury that might (stress might) show an airframe with white checks added. The pic appears in the MMP Orange Series book No.8105 on the Hawker Fury and Nimrod. The photo shows Fury K3731 with a coloured fin, probably depicting a flight commander's airframe. The image is captioned as showing the presence of white checks but the evidence is pretty scant. There are 3 personnel standing in front of the markings with only one "white" square fully in view. That single square certainly does look different when compared to the aluminium dope of the fuselage. However, the other partial "white" squares look rather more like aluminium dope showing through. The checks on the upper wing show no discernible difference between the "white" checks and the aluminium dope, although the latter is in full sunlight and so has a very bright appearance. I'm far from convinced on that single piece of evidence. I'd like to see a better quality version of the image or, better yet, a single clear image showing white checks on a 1930s vintage airframe.
  5. If you're talking about the early Battle of France markings, then usually they did not have the yellow surround. The later Black/Sky scheme (after the BoB) did have a yellow surround for the roundel on the port underwing position.
  6. mhaselden

    Fury colours

    TBH, the only pics of Furies I can find with white on the checkerboard are modern restorations. Every contemporary 1930s photo I could find online showed aluminium dope where the white portion of the checkerboard would be.
  7. mhaselden

    Fury colours

    It's an interesting question. Most contemporary photos I've seen appear to show just black checks with the silver dope showing instead of white checks:
  8. Agree entirely, but the question is whether the same recognition markings on a RAF Hurricane would be demanded by Chinese Air Force and USAAF organizations that were operating on different sides of the globe. My hunch is that it wouldn't happen except, perhaps, by fluke, and even then I'd like to see evidence that either the CAF or the USAAF requested the change to RAF marking procedures.
  9. Yeah, I realise the Takoradi route markings involved painting white distemper to the rear fuselage and so a Type A1 roundel on the upper wing probably doesn't add much from a recognition perspective. However, the idea of it being a recognition aid for operations alongside U.S. units doesn't make sense, either. The RAF Buffalos in Rangoon didn't have their upper wing roundels modified, and they were likely more easily confused with Japanese fighters than the Hurricane would be. Also, it should be borne in mind that the AVG wasn't an American unit. It was part of the Chinese air force and so the actions in RCAF's Western Command can't possibly be linked to the AVG. We may never know the reason, but it's certainly an odd thing given the well-established marking schemes in place by early 1942.
  10. It's an interesting question as to why these airframes have Type A upper wing roundels. There was certainly no prior marking scheme like that, the closest being the use of Type A1 roundels March 1939. I wonder if the white ring was added to aid identification/visibility from above while transiting the Takoradi route?
  11. Hmmmm.....interesting image. Funny what emerges from the photo vaults! My view is that this is a different machine because the light-toned fuselage fabric aligns with the slope at rear of the cowling. The other 2 photos of the Spich-based machine appear to show the front of the light-toned fabric as a vertical line, not sloped. I will admit, though, that it's hard to be certain given the rather poor quality of the second Spich image.
  12. And dashed inconsiderate it was of them, too! How dare they not write down the specific colour mix based on stock references, and augment the written record with swatches of the finished colour for future generations to evaluate. Some people really lack foresight! I suspect the thread has reached a logical conclusion, but I learned a lot along the way from the insights others provided and their analysis of the images. I agree that we're probably looking at some locally-available or locally-mixed concoction. A pale blue would make some sense but it could be any light colour.
  13. Hi Richard, Frankly, I never expected to get a definitive answer. However, I was hoping for rather more ideas or at least thoughts on the topic. It certainly does seem like the original fuselage lozenge fabric was overpainted in the light colour, which suggests CDL is off the list of possible candidates. That light colour also clearly extends onto the fin and rudder, which suggests that the light colour was applied after its German service (or it's a particularly dark version of white). I don't think I can go much further than that at this stage. Of course, on the plus side, nobody can definitively claim that I applied the wrong colour! Kind regards, Mark
  14. Programmes like Loyal Wingman are well-published. If there were existing systems, why bother developing and advertising Loyal Wingman with such fanfare? I used the word "mainstream" deliberately because such platforms would be needed in large quantities during a near-peer fight. The F-117 was never more than a niche platform - only 59 operational airframes were built. The ability to keep a new high-tech system under wraps is inversely proportional to the quantity produced and made operational.
  15. This isn't good news...this is GREAT news. Really pleased that a new site has been found for the Bruntingthorpe collection.
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