robw_uk Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 as the cold war worsened in the late 1950s, the British Government wanted to utilise information gained from Russia through its best ever spy ("the names Bond, Premium Bond"). However, as Mr Bond was want to destroy the myriad gadgets he was provided with, the government did not have the budget to put this out to tender. A plan was hatched, the Scribbins-Plan, in which a seemingly innocent invitation to lunch would actually be the method in which aircraft manufacturers would be "invited" to "consider" the requirements of the MoD. In response to a passing comment made at a Christmas Party, alongside a mysterious set of plans secreted in a Christmas cracker, Folland took the bait and started working on the 2nd generation Gnat... aimed to be super sonic, and utilising the Christmas cracker comments - they thought they were intricate scissors but really it was a method to make wings move laterally in flight - the "Scissor Wing" was born. 1 engine wasn't enough, 2 would have to be squeezed into the airframe.... and so the GNAT-TESS was born (Twin-Engined Super-Sonic) this is a 1/72 mock up used to show the prototype....... (hope to get this built... at least in plastic - may not get painted.....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viscount806x Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 I'm currently building a Midge and have had similar thoughts as a what if. Follands did have a design for a supersonic 'son-of-Gnat' which is pictured and described in British Secret Projects-Jet fighters since 1950 which might interest you. My own thoughts are gravitating towards a Gnat FR.2 for RAFG operations in the 1960s to replace the Swift FR5. My fantasy would be based on the T1 airframe and engine but have the two intake mounted Adens, single seater nose and canopy and a PR nose (like a Meteor FR9) but retain the lengthened forward fuselage which could contain more fuel where the second pilot would have been on the T1. I might do a Trial Installation on an old Matchbox Gnat to see what it would look like first before commiting expensive resin parts and modern kits to the project. Camouflage would be Dark Green/Medium Sea Grey/PRU Blue. Then of course we might like to have #2 Sqn RAF operating it. Of course a T1 would be needed also, for pilot recency/renewal checks, also in camouflage. Have I inspired anyone out there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col. Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Hope you get time to this one Rob as it sounds very interesting. You too Viscount806x, go on, get a thread started, you know you want to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robw_uk Posted October 4, 2012 Author Share Posted October 4, 2012 Cheers guys... think I will get her started.. guess if it is a wind-tunnel mockup then she could just be all 1 colour so no cockpit details... so a solid carved mockup (ooh no wheels either. Have a stand I couldn't use) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted October 4, 2012 Share Posted October 4, 2012 Imaginative back story! Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robw_uk Posted October 5, 2012 Author Share Posted October 5, 2012 (edited) Imaginative back story! Dan i have had it done to me - a coffee with an old colleague (now customer) was really a ploy for him to informally request I work on something - luckily I dont do that - I know everything needs to be official (well anything big).... but do feel the MoD could be this sneaky ;-) still not sure how to address the swing wing element - will take inspiration from early USSR examples... anyway will start tomorrow - box pictures later today.... Edited October 5, 2012 by robw_uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robw_uk Posted October 8, 2012 Author Share Posted October 8, 2012 right - started (no pics yet)... cut the tail and bit from cockpit->tail off... made a 2-exhaust unit and spread the rear to house it (so the airframe isnt twice as wide just spread to accomodate twin exhaust (guess that means I cant fit 2 engines - maybe a bigger engine with 2 exhausts?) next will be to fill the upper and lower fuselage where it spreads.... and this will be an engineering mockup (wood/metal type mockup) so no cockpit or badly painted glass ;-) cheating I know but...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col. Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Hmm, could this be a scale flying aerodynamic testbed for the real thing? Bit like the Avro 707 was to the Vulcan. Sure I read flying models were used to test the Gnat so that would be in keeping with the company profile. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robw_uk Posted October 10, 2012 Author Share Posted October 10, 2012 Anything that means no cockpit masking..... lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robw_uk Posted October 11, 2012 Author Share Posted October 11, 2012 ok - so first photos... first 3 box and contents, 2nd 3 my efforts so far... next steps will be to fill the gap in the upper and lower parts of the fuselage... then comes the fun bit of working out how to mount variable-geometry wings.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col. Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Great to see you cutting plastic Rob. The rear end surgery looks good so far. Are you going to modiry the kit wings or replace them? A thinner chord wing would allow you to use the kit wing roots as a 'glove' for the wing pivot mechanism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian G Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Have you seen the drawings of the Swing-Wing Folland Gnat Mark 5 (the Fo.146) in the excellent book, 'Folland Gnat, Sabre Slayer and Red Arrow' by Victor Bingham? Regards, Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robw_uk Posted October 12, 2012 Author Share Posted October 12, 2012 Great to see you cutting plastic Rob. The rear end surgery looks good so far. Are you going to modiry the kit wings or replace them? A thinner chord wing would allow you to use the kit wing roots as a 'glove' for the wing pivot mechanism. the one thought that was mentioned when we were discussing the GB was to follow the Russian model and have the "glove" 50% of the wing and the swing part the tip only... but as yet not worked out how - I was considering building a glove on the fuselage (so over where the wing attaches up to the dorsal) - then have it swing "into" the airframe (like the Tomcat for example)... need to get the fuse done then sit with paper and work it out.... Have you seen the drawings of the Swing-Wing Folland Gnat Mark 5 (the Fo.146) in the excellent book, 'Folland Gnat, Sabre Slayer and Red Arrow' by Victor Bingham? Regards, Brian Brian - I may have done as an image on the WHIF website - not seen the book - do you have a copy of the image (will google it too)... would be good to see how Folland considered doing it..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robw_uk Posted October 19, 2012 Author Share Posted October 19, 2012 little more work done - upper and lower gaps filled, tail assembly now 1 piece ready to be put on the airframe... .still do not know how to address the swing wing.... once tail is on will do some paper mockups and see what I come up with - perhaps I will have to build from scratch rather than use the kit wing.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Procopius Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 I've never seen either kit in person, but would the wings from, say, a 1/144 Tomcat work on a 1/72 Gnat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotorheadtx Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 I've never seen either kit in person, but would the wings from, say, a 1/144 Tomcat work on a 1/72 Gnat? Just what I was thinking.... or perhaps 1/100th... Academy kit... http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=234910797 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaiidanTomcat Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 This is really ambitious!! nice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viscount806x Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 I've never seen either kit in person, but would the wings from, say, a 1/144 Tomcat work on a 1/72 Gnat? Not sure about that but I think Xtradecal 1/144 Hunter markings (2 and 79 Sqns RAF) will work on my RAF Germany Gnats described at the top of this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robw_uk Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 thanks for the suggestions of using the wings form a smaller tomcat... dont have a spare kit (have a 1/72 'cat but want to build that later) so will go with the normal Gnat wings. but the photos you have provided DO give me thoughts on how the damn thing should be mounted (going US rather than Russian). Tried a template on Friday but will do some more work on it, mockup in paper perhaps to see how she will look.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigsty Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Don't forget that with a VG wing you need enough space in the fuselage to stow the root when it's fully swept. Most Western designs with "inboard" pivots actually have them a fair way outboard because the aircraft's shoulders are so wide. Unless you crop the wing roots aft of the pivots, your best bet may be to go for the Sukhoi/Tupolev pattern. That will be interesting on a high-winged aircraft, but not impossible, I suspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robw_uk Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 Don't forget that with a VG wing you need enough space in the fuselage to stow the root when it's fully swept. Most Western designs with "inboard" pivots actually have them a fair way outboard because the aircraft's shoulders are so wide. Unless you crop the wing roots aft of the pivots, your best bet may be to go for the Sukhoi/Tupolev pattern. That will be interesting on a high-winged aircraft, but not impossible, I suspect. thats what I am struggling with - think maybe a high shoulder that goes quite a way back and quite a way out (my initial template probably went out a further half-fuselage-width and back 2/3 of the space from front cockpit to tail... like I said going to try some mock ups and then see what the collective thinks..... also as I have spread the fuselage for the "second engine" i need to alter the angle of the rear horizontal surfaces - shouldnt be too difficult but need to bear that in mind when looking at the whole wing thing.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigsty Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 (edited) The VG Lightning might be instructive - you couldn't get a much narrower fuselage, but they contrived a way of giving it moving panels. Largely by the outboard pivots route, though that might also have been influenced by the need to put the mainwheels somewhere in the wing. Edited October 22, 2012 by pigsty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robw_uk Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 The VG Lightning might be instructive - you couldn't get a much narrower fuselage, but they contrived a way of giving it moving panels. Largely by the outboard pivots route, though that might also have been influenced by the need to put the mainwheels somewhere in the wing. interesting... the wings on the lightning, being thinner and "straight" seem to lend themselves to VG, the gnats are short & stubby. One option I have therefore is to scratchbuild wings - but - I think I can get the original wings to pivot after a fashion - the extra width in the fuse form engine 2 lends itself to being built up into a conventional NATO VG setup (maybe a little too forward-thinking for the GNAT but hey, developed for Gnat, didnt work but re-used on the Tornado.... possible) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigsty Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Another possible source of inspiration is the BAC P.45. It's from The Other Company as well, but the plan was a light fighter/trainer not much bigger than a Hawk, so it might give you a few pointers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robw_uk Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 Another possible source of inspiration is the BAC P.45. It's from The Other Company as well, but the plan was a light fighter/trainer not much bigger than a Hawk, so it might give you a few pointers. now that is possible - again narrow wing... 1 question - wing to tail plane, should the wing sweep back to form a delta with the tail, or is it aerodynamically feasable to have a "hole" formed by rear of wing, front of tail and fuselage? may have to make the tail bigger if it should for a near solid delta.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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