pigsty Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 It's a funny thing, but most inboard-pivoted VG designs have had the trailing edge of the wing and the leading edge of the tailplane just about parallel. I suspect it's because they end up close to each other at maximum sweep, although the MiG-23 has several feet of separation and still has parallel edges. In most cases, of course, the tailplane is lower than the wing, so they'll be avoiding overlap rather than contact. Only the Su-24 and the F-111 have them mounted at the same level, and (except for the long-winged F-111s) they don't form a visual delta because the wingtips are several feet inboard of the tail tips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robw_uk Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 looking at the FITTER i can have abig gap between wing & tail so thats not a problem... right, now i need to drink my cuppa and head home and build templates..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robw_uk Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 ahhhhhhhhh i have a 1/72 Mig 15 knocking around - thin lightning-esque wings - so wouldnt need to scratchbuild.... trip up in to the loft planned then....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col. Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Enjoying the chance to read your thoughts on this one Rob and glad to see so many great ideas and discussion being contributed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robw_uk Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 Enjoying the chance to read your thoughts on this one Rob and glad to see so many great ideas and discussion being contributed. Thanks Col, I work better bouncing ideas off people. Thanks pigsty... Ok, started on the wing, using the mig 15 (narrow straight wing). It will pivot close in so I will add an upper and lower cover/wing root and have opened up at the rear edge to allow the wing to slide into the body. Went this way as I don't think the Russian design, pivoting halfway down the wing, would really be effective on an aircraft with such a small wingspan. Hope to get photos of parts blu-tacked in place up tomorrow morning then work on the lower wing root tomorrow night.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robw_uk Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 ok - so the build so far 1) twin engined - body split and pushed apart down center seam. Tail added back on 2) swing wing started to be built (mig 17 - not 15 as above) wing used....... not 100% happy with the wings - not sure on the curve, not really British so may revisit the original Gnat wing ( or remove the curve on the MiG wings as I like the thin-ness - but think the only way to mount is like this - as i said the wingspan is just too short to get any sort of benefit from pivoting like the Russians...... next will be to build the underside mantel and work on the pivot for the wing (wont have the 2 wings connected like F-14 kits) and the aerodynamic shaping for the pivot housing..... anyway - photos (know i need to do a lot of clean up but........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col. Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 The fuselage modifications look great Rob. Everything ties in nicely. Not sure about that wingtip shape yet - western VG wings always seem to have a much straighter tip - but there is a saying where I comes from that states, "fools and children should never see things half done", so I'll keep quiet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robw_uk Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 (edited) The fuselage modifications look great Rob. Everything ties in nicely. Not sure about that wingtip shape yet - western VG wings always seem to have a much straighter tip - but there is a saying where I comes from that states, "fools and children should never see things half done", so I'll keep quiet Col, I am with you 100% and think i MUST develop the wingtip more... once i am happy with which wing i use (I may try with the normal Gnat wing) i will see what else needs to be done.... EDIT - also looking at the photos above - the wing is perhaps too straight - maybe thats just the curve but it just looks bleurgh......(good starting point tho) Edited October 23, 2012 by robw_uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robw_uk Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 Switched to the gnat wing, looks a bit better so going with that. Now have lower surface done (just a triangular piece) and waiting all has dried til I can work out how the hell to fix the wing so that it moves without leaving huge gaps...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robw_uk Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 (edited) ok - this is the mockup i have with the original Gnat wing... personally i think this looks more "right" than the Mig 17 wings - what do you guys think? next will be to duplicate for the opposite side whilst working on the pivot (thinking single peg through the wing and upper/lower covers as a simple hinge - nothing spectacular.... ALSO may alter the swept position - to me it is a little too close to the original (the forward position is nice and forward, just the back position still doesnt look attacking enough (but perhaps too swept will make it too unstable (or put too much of the wing in the fuselage) ;-) EDIT - having looked again, perhaps I could make the mantlet a bigger element - pusing the original wing further out from the body and further back when swept... more things to think about (anyone got a spare set of Gnat wings in 1/72??????) Edited October 23, 2012 by robw_uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Procopius Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Would they work reversed, a la the X-29? Then fold them in for a delta configuration at high speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robw_uk Posted October 24, 2012 Author Share Posted October 24, 2012 Would they work reversed, a la the X-29? Then fold them in for a delta configuration at high speed. possibly a little too radical for 1960s Britain... unfortunately as I have chopped 1 of the Gnat wings to fit the config I have now I cant work on the x-29 version - but it could give a posisble answer.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian G Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Rob, I have tried, a couple of times, to include copies of the drawings for the Folland Swing Wing Designs from Victor Bingham's book on the Gnat here - with no success! However, to describe the Folland Fo 147 Advanced Trainer/Interceptor with Swing Wings - (as Teddy Petter also designed the English Electric Lightning), the best I can say is the wings look like the wings off a Lightning, with two Rolls-Royce RB153 engines and a Canard Foreplane under the cockpit. There is also the Fo 148 in the book which is described as a Advanced Trainer/ Close Support Strike project which had swing wings and a single RB 153. Cheers, Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robw_uk Posted October 24, 2012 Author Share Posted October 24, 2012 Rob, I have tried, a couple of times, to include copies of the drawings for the Folland Swing Wing Designs from Victor Bingham's book on the Gnat here - with no success! However, to describe the Folland Fo 147 Advanced Trainer/Interceptor with Swing Wings - (as Teddy Petter also designed the English Electric Lightning), the best I can say is the wings look like the wings off a Lightning, with two Rolls-Royce RB153 engines and a Canard Foreplane under the cockpit... There is also the Fo 148 in the book which is described as a Advanced Trainer/ Close Support Strike project which had swing wings and a single RB 153. Cheers, Brian Brian, thanks for that - just googled them and found an illustration of the Fo 147 - oohhh odd, no rear horizontal surfaces... i might be able to do this if someone has a spare set of Lightning wings (anyone??? 1/72???) or perhaps i could scracthbuild & sand to shape... not my strongest suit.... my initial concept was to build an engineering model (ie what they use for proof of concept or to allow people to see the way they are heading before committing to building a full-size version) rather than an aircraft that was fully developed. If i work the way I am going I feel I can have something that can be seen as a predecessor to the Tornado (ie it was proposed and rejected but when Panavia worked on the Tornado they resurrected parts of it.....) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaiidanTomcat Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Thats interesting!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robw_uk Posted October 25, 2012 Author Share Posted October 25, 2012 Thats interesting!! thanks... no work last night... think i am "stuck" with the VG as given with the Gnats wing (unless i scratchbuild wings). hope to get the first set up with pivot today/tomorrow then I can repeat on the other side (should be easier using the RHS as a template).... have 1 week left really to get this built & painted (another reason for the simple paint job - of a engineering mockup (no need to mask cockpit, no wheels etc...... which is a shame as with more time I could perhaps paint it up as a test bed machine (silver with orange or red wingtips.....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tropical thistle Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Very cool execution of the fuselage! Erm... not too sure about the VG wings. Hope you crack that technological bottleneck soon ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robw_uk Posted October 25, 2012 Author Share Posted October 25, 2012 Very cool execution of the fuselage! Erm... not too sure about the VG wings. Hope you crack that technological bottleneck soon ;-) thanks for that... i am sort of their.. the more i think the housing looks like it needs work too - just too "open" where it meets the wing - and nothing on the rear edge...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robw_uk Posted October 26, 2012 Author Share Posted October 26, 2012 pin is in - hinged close to leading edge - and the damn thing works... need to tidy up the housing and the large hole I cut in the fuselage to fit the wing... but its a step forward. can now work on with the 2nd side and then mount both..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robw_uk Posted October 29, 2012 Author Share Posted October 29, 2012 well knackered wrists have their good side.... couple of hours this morning now has both wing roots done (just about matching) and wings that now pivot... have swpet the wings back more than earlier photos and, to my eye, it doesnt look half bad. have a couple of pieces of work to do on making sure the wings swivel horizontally (left win (as if you are the pilot) droops a bit when extended - need to get that fixed) and to ensure when I photograph them the wings are equal both sides ;-)..... also need to fill some gaps and contour the leading edge of the wing root.... dont forget - this is an "engineering mockup" so will be painted all over (no need to mask cockpit) - so probably silver all over to give me a little practice at silver finish....... photos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChancerUK Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 I would have never imagined a variable geometry Gnatt, great idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col. Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Nice set-up for the VG wing Rob. All the thought and effort has paid dividends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaiidanTomcat Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 That is some impressive modeling skill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robw_uk Posted October 30, 2012 Author Share Posted October 30, 2012 Thanks all. Last night was sanding an filling (not my best skill) but she is slowly getting there. Hoping to have the build finished today (may alter the nose to house a radar but will have to see)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robw_uk Posted October 31, 2012 Author Share Posted October 31, 2012 building complete - no new nose - and filling done (not well - something I need to improve on (still)).... next stage if i can do it before Tuesday is paint..... a bit more back story just as Folland were developing the GNAT-TESS, the government decided that small agile fighters were not where they wanted to focus their meagre defence budget,instead they wanted a combat aircraft that that could perform multiple roles - they therefore issued RFP - JOAT (Jack of all trades). the British Aircraft Corporation had felt put out by the indirect governmental approach that had led to the GNAT-TESS and went straight to Folland and head-hunted their head of wiggly-wings, their wind-tunnel technician and the chief tea boy and bottle washer. With Folland badly hamstrung by this triple defection (especially the tea boy who knew just how the CEO liked his tea and biccies) they wound up the GNAT-TESS project. All that was left was the wind-tunnel model, which, in an act of company loyalty not seen in the modern age, was duplicated and a model given to each employee who had worked on the project, Of course the bumbling purchase order gave 1 each to the 3 defectees and thus, BAC inherited the innovative design for the wiggly-wings (they really did need to think of a more scientific name for this innovation) which they then took to the table at the forming of PANAVIA... what I am therefore building, is one of the ENP replica GNAT-TESS statuettes.... (which is how I explain a plain silver build and a painted cockpit (ok I might but RAF roundels on just for some colour)... its a cop-out but i am very pushed for painting time and needed a quick excuse ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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